John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,221 through 2,240 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #125411
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Seeking said:

    Quote
    But, as with your many other additions to scripture, where did you learn communication was disallowed?

    Seeking,
    I want to say that I am surprised you are contending with me on this issue rather than with Gene. My interpretation of the seven spirits is my reply to Gene's view that the seven spirits are “elohim” (powers). Gene's view creates a big problem for the non-trinitarian view.

    You asked why communication was disallowed.

    I ask you: Why were any of the apostles imprisoned?

    Answer: To shut them up!

    If the apostles were impriisoned to shut them up then why would communication be allowed? Do I assume too much in thinking that you employ common sense when you interpret the Scriptures. Or are you more like Nick who says that common sense is faithless “intellectualism”?

    Anyway, here is a small piece of historical information about Patmos for you:

    Quote
    …it had all the requisites which could be desired for a place of punishment; and banishment to that place would accomplish that a persecutor could wish IN SILENCING an apostle without putting him to death (Barnes Notes on the Revelation, p.48)

    Please don't turn “Nick” on me who has abandoned reason. A little common sense will go a long way in understanding the Scriptures.  Gene has said that John was quite capable of distributing the Revelation. This was not possible all by himself. Visitors would have to be allowed who could smuggle the letters out. But John was banished to shut him up. Therefore, no visitors would have been allowed him who could smuggle letters out. John needed help from heaven.

    About the number seven: The churches were seven in number and so were the angels who carried the letters. Yet the spirits from God were not a real seven? What would be your basis for spiritualizing the number seven in reference to the spirits from God when the number is not spiritual  in reference to the churches and the angels? The angels that distributed the Revelation are the spirits from God who were sent out into Asia.

    When will you answer this: Why were the seven spirits sent out into Asia?

    thinker

    #125412
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi tt,
    You seem to revere intellect but truth is found in sacred scripture.
    God is not obstructed…ever.

    #125413
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi tt,
    Angels distributed the book of Revelation.
    For a rationalist you are leaning a long way out of your canoe

    #125414
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    …so I hardly think they were some invisible spirit beings, as thinker and Nick portrays them.

    Gene,
    How do you know the seven spirits did not take a transient, human form? Angels took human form at the tomb after Jesus arose from the dead? An angel visited Peter in jail and “struck” Peter to wake him up. The spirit made physical contact with Peter somehow. He “struck” Peter. So even if the seven spirits did not take human form they were able to make physical contact with the world.

    Anyway, this subject is really about your idea that the seven spirits were “elohim” (powers).

    thinker

    #125415
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2009,20:50)
    Hi tt,
    You seem to revere intellect but truth is found in sacred scripture.
    God is not obstructed…ever.


    Why was Stephen killed? Answer: To silence him. Why was John banished? Answer: To shut him up.

    Therefore, it would be counter productive of John's persecutors to allow John to have visitors who could smuggle out letters. What you call my reverence for “intellect” is really my reverence for common sense. People know the difference between rationalism and common sense-at least most people know.

    thinker

    #125416
    kerwin
    Participant

    You are making an error by taking the symbolism of Revelation literally.  I did a search of the NIV bible and the only place that the seven spirits of God are mentioned is Revelations 3:1 and 4:5 and I know of no other source of early Jewish philosophy that mentions seven spirits.  Your must remember that Christianity is a sect of Judaism and at that early date Jewish philosophy was pretty much all they had unless you are speaking of the New Testament scriptures we have today.  If you can find anything that of that or earlier eras that back up your conjectures then please let me know but at present you appear to be spinning a fantasy based on a symbolic message of hope and warning.

    I believe the number seven symbolizes completeness to the Jews because the creation of the world was completed in seven days.  If someone wants to research the issue then that would probably be informative but this creating a religious tenet out of what is meant to be a symbolic message of prophecy and not the gospel appears to be a vain and suicidal pursuit.  Please be careful what you choose to believe and tell others.

    #125425
    SEEKING
    Participant

    [quote=thethinker,Mar. 22 2009,01:44][/quote]

    Quote
    Seeking,
    I want to say that I am surprised you are contending with me on this issue rather than with Gene. My interpretation of the seven spirits is my reply to Gene's view that the seven spirits are “elohim” (powers). Gene's view creates a big problem for the non-trinitarian view.

    I strive to side with scripture and they that hold to scripture.
    You feel Gene's interpretation is far fetched, I guess, and you counter with a “mailman” theory.

    Quote
    You asked why communication was disallowed.

    I ask you: Why were any of the apostles imprisoned?

    Answer: To shut them up!

    Did your courses in logic teach, “report only the facts that support your theory – ignore other facts – most people won't check”?

    Act 28:16-17  And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier that guarded him.  After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

    You see, the facts are that Paul was allowed to call meetings etc. and move about while experiencing Roman detention.

    Quote
    Anyway, here is a small piece of historical information about Patmos for you:

    Again, you select the information that would tend to support your theory.  If you have researched well, you know that the “Exile” theory has been challenged.  Here is a little more by Barnes whom you cite:

    It is commonly supposed that John was banished to this island by Domitian, about 94 a.d.

    Banishment to an island was a common mode of punishment; and there was a distinction made by this act in favor of those who were thus banished. The more base, low, and vile of criminals were commonly condemned to work in the mines;  the more decent and respectable were banished to some lonely island. See the authorities quoted in Wetstein, “in loco.”

    So now, based on your source, we have Paul a model prisioner, respected who very likely did not have the restrictions you imply.  This is suggested now by commentators, the Bible account of his Roman detention, and other historians.  Other historians report that island banishment allowed liberties to move about, but you report only the information that might give credence to your “mailman” theory.

    Quote
    Do I assume too much in thinking that you employ common sense when you interpret the Scriptures.

    It is always wise to incorporate facts with common sense.  It has been well said, especially in this day and age,
    that -“if it is common it probably does not reflect much sense.”

    Quote
    Please don't turn “Nick” on me who has abandoned reason.

    Nick and I have not entered into a pact where we “turn” each other “on” people.  I strongly would question, between you and he, who has abandoned reason in favor of personal theory.

    Quote
    When will you answer this: Why were the seven spirits sent out into Asia?

    Your insistence to reject an answer does not negate that one was given –

    I need not discern why seven messengers or spirits and struggle with why that matches the number of churches when I take the text for what it says and am not trying to concoct some “mailman” theory of my own.

    Thinker, just honor the text and you will have all your answers and your speculations will, again, be found wanting.

    Rev 1:3  Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

    Rev 1:11  saying, Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches

    John clearly identified the seven spirits as those from whom the blessing of grace and peace were offered, along with the one who was sitting on the throne the spirits sat before.  We know where the spirits are and what they are doing.  I made this point before and you ignored it, something you forbid others to do.  They were not “mailmen”, they were offering a blessing in v.4.

    Rev 1:4  John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,

    #125427
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Kerwin said:

    Quote
    I believe the number seven symbolizes completeness to the Jews because the creation of the world was completed in seven days.

    Kerwin,
    So there were NOT seven churches?

    1.To the angel of the church of Ephesus write….
    2.To the angel of the church of Smyrna write….
    3.To the angel of the church of Pergamos write….
    4.To the angel of the church of Thyatira write….
    5.To the angel of the church of Sardis write….
    6.To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write….
    7.To the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write….

    It is without dispute that the number seven was literal in reference to the number of churches and the number of angels to which John was commanded to write. But you suggest that the number seven somehow magically and mystically morphed and became a symbolic number in reference to the spirits that were sent from God. Other than translator bias (capital “S”) what is your exegetical basis for employing such a flip flop method?

    thinker

    #125429
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Seeking said:

    Quote
    You feel Gene's interpretation is far fetched, I guess, and you counter with a “mailman” theory.

    Seeking,
    This whole subject has gotten comical now. You speak as if yours and Gene's theory is not a “mailman” theory too. Do you think that John was permitted to check in and out on the ferry boat from Patmos to the mainland and back everyday?  This definitely could not have been the case. So if John was capable of distributing the letters as you and Gene say it would have required at least one “mailman.”  

    We all must hold to a “mailman” theory. The difference is that you and Gene suppose that John's persecutors would have cooperated. But the historical circumstances necessitate that divine help was required.

    I think that this is all I need to say of your last post. Your charge that I hold to a “mailman” theory is like the pot calling the kettle black. Fact is, we all need a “mailman” theory.

    thinker

    #125430
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All……….the reason the Seven Spirits (intellects) are before the throne is Because they compose who and what GOD is, Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT, and they that worship Him must worship Him is spirit and truth, God Himself is composed of these Seven Spirits,and they are the (POWERS) that create and go Before the LORD God Himself, throughout the whole earth. These Spirits were hovering over the waters of the earth in Genesis and created all things in the earth they are under control of (ONE) LORD. He is the LORD OUR GOD. (He Exists with POWERS) Jesus now Has (ALL) Seven Spirits (Intellects in Him also) (EYES) and they are with Power, (HORNS), These Spirit powers effect the WILL of ONE LORD GOD. This is how the Father rules through Jesus and all his servants, By his spirit. Now if the Spirit of Him (LORD) be in you, it will produce in you what it produced in Jesus also. IMO

    Isa 61:1..> the Spirit of the LORD God is upon me ; because the LORD has Anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty th the captives; and to the opening of the prison to them that are bound.

    Psa 104:30…> Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

    love to you and yours………………………………………gene

    #125431
    kerwin
    Participant

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    So there were NOT seven churches?

    There were a whole lot more than seven churches.  I suppose you are asking if John was actually addressing those seven churches specifically or was he addressing seven stereotype churches that represent all churches and the names are not really important.   The seven indicating the complete Christian movement either at that time alone or throughout time.  

    While we are speaking of symbolism would someone provide the translation of the names of the seven churches because I would not be surprised if they have a significance in themselves as the name of both Greeks and Jews meant something to then and were not just meaningless labels.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    But you suggest that the number seven somehow magically and mystically morphed and became a symbolic number in reference to the spirits that were sent from God.

    There is no mysticism necessary as it was an accepted practice in the Jewish culture to use numbers symbolically at that time and John and a number of his hearers were Jews.  The question would be is if the Christian gentiles also accepted that proactive and I will point Jesus himself was known to use it in his parables as in the case with the seven virgins.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    Other than translator bias (capital “S”) what is your exegetical basis for employing such a flip flop method?

    As I pointed out I actually did some research on seven spirits and found nothing.  That is an indication that taking seven spirits literally is a probably a bad idea.  I certainly invite you to do your own research and find if you can find those seven spirits mentioned previous to John’s vision in a non-prophetic setting.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    So if John was capable of distributing the letters as you and Gene say it would have required at least one “mailman.”

    How do drugs get into prisoners today despite the fact that they are banned?  Do you think the Roman guards were less likely to smuggle items for the prisoners especially since some of those guards were probably Christians who would eagerly desire to read or have John’s writings read them as well.

    #125432
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker …………John was told to write it in a book and send it, right brother.

    love and peace to you and yours……………………………………….gene

    #125434
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    To All……….the reason the Seven Spirits (intellects) are before the throne is Because they compose who and what GOD is, Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT, and they that worship Him must worship Him is spirit and truth, God Himself is composed of these Seven Spirits,and they are the (POWERS) that create and go Before the LORD God Himself, throughout the whole earth. These Spirits were hovering over the  waters of the earth in Genesis and created all things in the earth they are under control of (ONE) LORD. He is the LORD OUR GOD. (He Exists with POWERS) Jesus now Has (ALL) Seven Spirits (Intellects in Him also) (EYES) and they are with Power, (HORNS), These Spirit powers effect the WILL of ONE LORD GOD. This is how the Father rules through Jesus and all his servants, By his spirit. Now if the Spirit of Him (LORD) be in you, it will produce in you what it produced in Jesus also.

    To All,
    Pur brother Gene from here on end will never be in a position to find fault with Trinitarianism. Gene is Octogarian, the Father and the seven Spirits equal one God.

    thinker

    #125435
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker………the seven Spirits are of one (UNIT of POWERS) and all seven of these powers are in control of by (ONE LORD) “Hear O Isral the (LORD) our God (Powers) is (ONE LORD) not one GOD< However with that said Jesus Said when Praying to THE FATHER, FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. The thou was the FATHER and true (POWERS was the GOD) Brother it not hard to get it, if you can throw of those preconceived Trinitarian Ideologies that effect your thinking, you are a smart and intelligent person Brother, if you just start fresh and don't add to what scripture says i believe you can see this brother. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………………gene

    #125437
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker …> I just had an idea, Go to the Sir Isaac Newton project Site and read what He had to say about the word GOD, and with you reasoning ability think about it. Peace brother.

    love to you and yours…………………………………………………..gene

    #125440
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Kerwin wrote:

    Quote
    There were a whole lot more than seven churches.  I suppose you are asking if John was actually addressing those seven churches specifically or was he addressing seven stereotype churches that represent all churches and the names are not really important.   The seven indicating the complete Christian movement either at that time alone or throughout time.

    Kerwin,
    The narrative clearly says that seven churches were addressed,

    1.To the angel of the church of Ephesus write….
    2.To the angel of the church of Smyrna write….
    3.To the angel of the church of Pergamos write….
    4.To the angel of the church of Thyatira write….
    5.To the angel of the church of Sardis write….
    6.To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write….
    7.To the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write….

    Quote
    There is no mysticism necessary as it was an accepted practice in the Jewish culture to use numbers symbolically at that time and John and a number of his hearers were Jews.  The question would be is if the Christian gentiles also accepted that proactive and I will point Jesus himself was known to use it in his parables as in the case with the seven virgins.

    It was ten virgins Kerwin.

    Quote
    As I pointed out I actually did some research on seven spirits and found nothing.  That is an indication that taking seven spirits literally is a probably a bad idea.  I certainly invite you to do your own research and find if you can find those seven spirits mentioned previous to John’s vision in a non-prophetic setting.

    How is your lack of information on the seven spirits an indication of anything?

    Quote
    How do drugs get into prisoners today despite the fact that they are banned?  Do you think the Roman guards were less likely to smuggle items for the prisoners especially since some of those guards were probably Christians who would eagerly desire to read or have John’s writings read them as well.

    Prisoners today have visitors come in to see them. The isle of Patmos was not visited except by those who were banished there and the authorities who were their taskmasters. So this would leave only the guards who could have helped John. It is not likely that a guard would have helped him because that would have been punishable by death.

    Besides, Jesus explicitly said that He had sent His own angel to see to it that the book was distributed

    Quote
    I, Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches (22:16)

    thinker

    #125441
    NickHassan
    Participant

    G,
    Your reasoning again arrogantly elevates itself against sacred scripture.
    Wake up

    #125442
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 23 2009,06:13)
    Thinker …………John was told to write it in a book and send it, right brother.

    love and peace to you and yours……………………………………….gene


    Gene,
    John was told only to write the book.

    thinker

    #125443
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 23 2009,06:46)
    Thinker………the seven Spirits are of one (UNIT of POWERS) and all seven of these powers are in control of by (ONE LORD)  “Hear O Isral the (LORD) our God (Powers) is (ONE LORD) not one GOD< However with that said Jesus Said when Praying to THE FATHER, FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. The thou was the FATHER and true (POWERS was the GOD)  Brother it not hard to get it, if you can throw of those preconceived Trinitarian Ideologies that effect your thinking, you are a smart and intelligent person Brother, if you just start fresh and don't add to what scripture says i believe you can see this brother. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………………gene


    Gene,
    Trinitarians also say that “elohim” refers to one unit. For trinitarians it amounts to 3 in 1. But for you it amounts to 8 in 1. You are not hurting trinitarians any and we thank you for that.  :cool:

    thinker

    #125450
    SEEKING
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 22 2009,08:22)


    Quote
    Seeking,
    This whole subject has gotten comical now.

    You have made it thus!

    Quote
    You speak as if yours and Gene's theory is not a “mailman” theory too. Do you think that John was permitted to check in and out on the ferry boat from Patmos to the mainland and back everyday?

    Banishment to an island was a common mode of punishment; and there was a distinction made by this act in favor of those who were thus banished. The more base, low, and vile of criminals were commonly condemned to work in the mines; the more decent and respectable were banished to some lonely island. See the authorities quoted in Wetstein, “in loco.”

    So now, based on your source, we have Paul a model prisioner, respected who very likely did not have the restrictions you imply. This is suggested now by commentators, the Bible account of his Roman detention, and other historians. Other historians report that island banishment allowed liberties to move about, but you report only the information that might give credence to your “mailman” theory.

    Ignore all sources but your own and hold to the same invalid argument if you must. As I asked, is this a part of your “logic”
    and “common sense” game?

    Quote
    This definitely could not have been the case.

    You make an already disproven statement.

    Quote
    So if John was capable of distributing the letters as you and Gene say it would have required at least one “mailman.”

    Yes, Paul may have given the letter to a Roman government “mailman”. That is a far cry from your “angelic mailman? theory.

    Quote
    Fact is, we all need a “mailman” theory.

    I'll stick with one that has some semblance of reality, thank you!

    Act 28:16-17 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier that guarded him. After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

    You see, the facts are that Paul was allowed to call meetings etc. and move about while experiencing Roman detention.

    Act 22:25-29 But when they had stretched him out for the whips, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, “Is it lawful for you to flog a man who is a Roman citizen and uncondemned?” When the centurion heard this, he went to the tribune and said to him, “What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman citizen.” So the tribune came and said to him, “Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?” And he said, “Yes.” The tribune answered, “I bought this citizenship for a large sum.” Paul said, “But I am a citizen by birth.”
    So those who were about to examine him withdrew from him immediately, and the tribune also was afraid, for he realized that Paul was a Roman citizen and that he had bound him.

    I am confident you will continue to ignore the scriptures that tell us plainly of Paul's experiences with the Roman goverment
    in favor of your outside sources and opinions.

    Paul wrote the letter and delivered it, either by hand or by then customary means. No “angelic mailmen” were involved!

    Blessings,

    Seeking

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