John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,401 through 22,420 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #871194
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…..I believe wisdom is one of the seven spirits of God, through which he uses in his creating process.  It always existed in the beginning just as the rest of the Seven  Spirits of God also did,  wisdom is just one of the attributes of God, probably the most important, and is easily seem in all of God’s whole creation. Wisdom being a Spirit attribute, can therefore be possessed and used by us as well as God and angels. Just as all the rest of the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD CAN BE ALSO.  The Spirit of WISDOM, GIVES IT’S OWN ” Specific  Cognition ” to our minds, just like the Spirit of truth, and the rest of Gods seven other Spirits do. 

    I Don’t see it as a being itself, but a type or kind of Spirit, that works in all creation the LORD OUR God have made. Wisdom indeed is a very important,  Spiritual  “cognition”, we all need to use in what ever we are doing. IMO

    Peace and love to you Adam and yours………..gene

     

    #871200
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Hi Gadam,

    YOU: It may be about the virtue of wisdom only, or

    it may be about the virtue of wisdom and Jesus. But the context will not allow this text to be about Jesus alone.

    Yes, Gadam,

    Ezekiel 28:12 And say to him: Thus saith the Lord God:

    Thou wast the seal of resemblance, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    The above scripture is directed to Lucifer, the light bearer! FULL OF WISDOM, IN

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, HIDDEN IN LUCIFER.

    When God created Lucifer, THE BEGINNING, the first-ever creature of light,  He engrafted

    “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man to be, THE BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS,  in his heart, eternal life!

    John1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS “THE WORD” ……

    To be more precise A CREATURE WITH ONE HEART SHARED BETWEEN GOD IN “THE WORD” JESUS,  AND LUCIFER, TWO ENTITIES IN ONE EMBODIMENT OF LIGHT. MALE AND FEMALE,  in the same way, WE HUMANS ARE A SOUL AND A FLESH!

    Lucifer visible and Jesus invisible, one the physical light and one the spiritual light, respectively, both WISDOM, both THE MORNING STAR.

    THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT. Manifested by Jesus on Mount Tabor.

    The fact that both Jesus and Lucifer are, angels, morning stars, brothers, and sons of God. Lucifer created by God through Jesus who was emanated from God on God’s first-ever words LET THERE BE LIGHT.

    Prov 8:22-31 is about the Lady Wisdom and it is purely a anthropomorphism of an attribute of God. Yes it’s not about Jesus as it was imagined by the Christianity.

    Lucifer is another mistranslation of the word;

    In most of the English versions of the Bible the name “Lucifer” appears only one time, in Isaiah 14:12. This verse reads:

    How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning… (Isaiah 14:12).

    Isaiah was talking about king of Babylon and not any Christian invented Satan the Devil.

    Now the word “Lucifer” is not an English word, but a Latin word. And so the question is: Who gave the world this Latin name “lucifer”? And why did they give us this Latin name?

    In Isa 14:12, The KJV translators did not actually translate the Hebrew word ‏הילל as ‘Lucifer.’ This word occurs only here in the Hebrew Old Testament. Most likely, the KJV translators were not sure what to make of it, and simply duplicated the word used in the Latin Vulgate that translated ‏הילל. In the Vulgate, Isa 14:12 reads as follows:

    quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.

    Notice the fifth word of the text—lucifer. It is not a proper name but the Latin word for ‘morning star.’ The word lucifer occurs four times in the Vulgate: Isa 14:12, Job 11:17, Job 38:32, and 2 Peter 1:19. In Job 11:17, the KJV renders the Hebrew word ‏בקר as ‘morning’

    Ezekiel 28:11-19 is Lament over the King of Tyre and not any Satan or Lucifer as Christianity imagined.

    I am not for these old myths of Christianity.

    #871201
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hello brother Gene,

    Adam…..I believe wisdom is one of the seven spirits of God, through which he uses in his creating process.  It always existed in the beginning just as the rest of the Seven  Spirits of God also did,  wisdom is just one of the attributes of God, probably the most important, and is easily seem in all of God’s whole creation. Wisdom being a Spirit attribute, can therefore be possessed and used by us as well as God and angels. Just as all the rest of the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD CAN BE ALSO.  The Spirit of WISDOM, GIVES IT’S OWN ” Specific  Cognition ” to our minds, just like the Spirit of truth, and the rest of Gods seven other Spirits do.

    I Don’t see it as a being itself, but a type or kind of Spirit, that works in all creation the LORD OUR God have made. Wisdom indeed is a very important,  Spiritual  “cognition”, we all need to use in what ever we are doing. IMO

    Yes you are right Wisdom is one of the attributes of God and not sure about your Seven Spirits.

    As it is written: “The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD, and He will delight in the fear of the Lord.” Isaiah 11:2–3 (NASB). Including the Spirit of the Lord, and the Spirits of wisdom, of understanding, of counsel, of might, of knowledge and of fear of the LORD, here are represented the seven Spirits, which are before the throne of God. The reference to the lamb in Revelation 5:6 relates it to the Seven Spirits which first appear in Revelation 1:4 and are associated with Jesus who holds them along with seven stars.

    But Prov 8 & 9 is about the Lady Wisdom in a poetical description of its activity in the God’s creation. Wisdom is not a separate being as imagined by many Christians here as Jesus in his preexistence.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

    #871203
    Berean
    Participant

    @Mike

    Hi Mike

     

    You says That JESUS Never created anything…..!?

    Colossians 1:12-18

    Give thanks to the Father (God)
    who brought us together to share in the legacy of the saints in the light:
    [13] Who delivered us from the power of darkness and carried us into the kingdom of his beloved Son: (Jesus)
    [14] In whom (Jesus) we have redemption through his blood, even forgiveness of sins:

    [15] Who (Jesus,)
    is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creatures:
    [16] For by him (Jesus) were created all things that are in the heavens and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him(JESUS), and for him:

    [17] And he (Jesus) is before all things, and through him (Jesus) all things consist.

    [18] And he (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who (Jesus) is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he (JESUS) could have the preeminence.

     

    God bless

     

    #871213
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked:

    At what point was Jesus ever lesser than the other Davidic kings so that he had to have God place him higher than them? Besides, since there nothing in the scripture that clearly supports your idea, we’re left with a scripture saying that somebody’s own God placed that somebody higher than other persons – which means he wasn’t higher than them before the placement. Now, can that be said in any circumstance about God Himself?

    Philippians 2:

    5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6Who, existing in the form of God,

    did not consider equality with God

    something to be grasped,

    7but emptied Himself,

    taking the form of a servant,

    being made in human likeness.

    8And being found in appearance as a man,

    He humbled Himself

    and became obedient to death—

    even death on a cross.

    9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place

    and gave Him the name above all names,

    10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

    11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

    to the glory of God the Father.

    Now, can that be said in any circumstance about God Himself?

    It isn’t said about God the Father but it is said about the Son whom the Father identifies as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of the Son YHVH’s hands. That Son who is YHVH, although He had the form of God, He emptied Himself to come in the form of a bondservant. That is such a marvelous wonder.

    LU

    #871214
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    The Son is indeed, by very definition, an angel of his and our God, Jehovah. Btw, verse 4 says he BECAME better than the [other] angels to the extent that the name his and our God gave him was better than theirs.

    YHVH the Son, was made lower than the angels when He emptied Himself and became a bondservant. After His resurrection, His Father exalted Him over all things in heaven and on earth, including the angels. See my last post.

    #871215
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    If you can tell me how God is “above” both me in Arizona and Tater in NZ at the same time, then I might read your article.

    I told you here:

    …Another example, If I stick pins straight into a globe in every nation, and put the globe under a tabletop, the tabletop is above the globe and all its pins at the same time, the floor is not above the globe and all its pins or even any of its pins. The table is above the whole globe.

    The pins (Inhabitants) in Arizona and NZ are both on the globe and the table top in my example is over the whole globe. The table top is above all the pins “inhabitants” in the globe, even if the pins are standing on their heads or doing cartwheels.

    LU

    #871216
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Now if only there was such a thing as a “genitive of subordination” in the Greek language.  But there’s not.  It’s simply the genitive form of “every” and the genitive form of “creature”, ie: of every creature.

    I just showed you that there is a genitive of subordination. Wallace is a Greek scholar. https://www.amazon.com/Basics-Testament-Syntax-Daniel-Wallace/dp/0310232295

    Check out all the books he wrote about Greek grammar.

    https://youtu.be/K8cPgxa1p9U

    #871217
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    The word is a verb, meaning an action. The meaning of the Hebrew you quoted is that God took action A before He took those other actions of ancient times (ie: the ones we all already know about, like creating the heavens and the earth, etc.)  So whether “possessed” or “created”, God took action to do that thing before He did the other things.  That’s all the word “before” is saying.

    Screen Shot 2021-06-02 at 6.23.37 PM

    Please note that it doesn’t say that YHVH took possession of me, it merely says that YHVH possessed me. There is a difference.

    LU

    #871218
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer

    You repeat this over and over:

    “For us, there is one God the Father…”.

    For everyone else, there is a long list of gods from Babylon to choose from.

    For you, YHVH is not Lord, just God. If you read Heb 1:10-12 you would see that God the Father identifies His Son as YHVH. YHVH is both God and Lord, Father AND Son.

    #871219
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks gadam123!

    Can you tell me who is God of gods and Lord of lords?

    #871221
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Sis Kathi,

    Thanks gadam123!

    Can you tell me who is God of gods and Lord of lords?

    My outlook as a believer:

    We know there is only one Lord (Yahweh) God, but sometimes the Bible references other gods and lords. For example, in Deuteronomy 10:17 we find, “The LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome.” Whoever these other “gods” and “lords” are, they cannot compete with the “great God, mighty and awesome.”

    The emphasis in this verse is God’s supremacy. The focus is on God’s greatness and might. When He is called “God of gods,” we understand it as a reference to the God who is more powerful and greater than any other so-called god. The verse does infer the existence of other gods. But later in Isaiah God says, “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God” (Isaiah 45:5). See also Isaiah 43:11. Being the “God of gods,” the One True God towers over anything else that might be worshiped. He alone is worthy of worship (Deuteronomy 10:21).

    Idols have no power: “All the gods of the nations are worthless” (1 Chronicles 16:26, NET; cf. Psalm 96:5). Psalm 97:7 adds, “All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols.” These and many other passages note that there is only one God. To worship any other God is useless.

    What about the title “Lord of lords”? A “lord” (lower case l) often referred to a leader. To call the Lord the “Lord of lords” emphasizes God’s greatness above all other leaders or anyone who holds power. As a result, the psalmist writes, “Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever” (Psalm 136:3, ESV).

    In the New Testament, we find the phrase “Lord of lords” used on three occasions in reference to Jesus. Paul teaches that Jesus is “he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords” (1 Timothy 6:15, ESV) (still I feel it is about God). Revelation 17:14 speaks of Jesus’ return, saying, “He is Lord of lords and King of kings.” Revelation 19:16 adds, “On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords.”

    While God the Father is the One called “Lord of lords” in Deuteronomy 10:17 and in Psalms, the New Testament writers use the same title to refer to Jesus Christ. This is the change I am questioning.

    As a critic I see it differently. My next post will make it clear on this question.

     

    #871222
    gadam123
    Participant

    Heiser, Michael, “Are Yahweh and El Distinct Deities in Deut. 32:8-9 and Psalm 82?”

    Introduction
    The polytheistic nature of pre-exilic Israelite religion and Israel’s gradual evolution toward monotheism are taken as axiomatic in current biblical scholarship. This evolution, according to the consensus view, was achieved through the zealous commitment of Israelite scribes who edited and reworked the Hebrew Bible to reflect emerging monotheism and to compel the laity to embrace the idea. One specific feature of Israelite religion offered as proof of this development is the divine council. Before the exile, Israelite religion affirmed a council of gods which may or may not have been headed by Yahweh. During and after the exile, the gods of the council became angels, mere messengers of Yahweh, who by the end of the exilic
    period was conceived of as the lone council head over the gods of all nations. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 and Psalm 82 are put forth as rhetorical evidence of this redactional strategy and assumed religious evolution. The argument is put forth that these texts suggest Yahweh was at one time a junior member of the pantheon under El the Most High, but that he has now taken control as king of the gods. Mark S. Smith’s comments are representative:

    The author of Psalm 82 deposes the older theology, as Israel’s deity is called to assume a new role as judge of all the world. Yet at the same time, Psalm 82, like Deut 32:8-9, preserves the outlines of the older theology it is rejecting. From the perspective of this older theology, Yahweh did not belong to the top tier of the pantheon. Instead, in early Israel the god of Israel apparently belonged to the second tier of the pantheon; he was not the presider god, but one of his sons.

    1 Mark S. Smith, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel’s Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001), 49.
    2 Michael S. Heiser, “The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second temple Jewish

    The focus of this paper concerns the position expressed by Smith and held by many others: whether Yahweh and El are cast as separate deities in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32. This paper argues that this consensus view lacks coherence on several points. This position is in part based on the idea that these passages presume Yahweh and El are separate, in concert with an “older” polytheistic or henotheistic Israelite religion, and that this older theology collapsed in the wake of a monotheistic innovation. The reasoning is that, since it is presumed that such a religious evolution took place, these texts evince some sort of transition to monotheism. The alleged transition is then used in defense of the exegesis. As such, the security of the evolutionary presupposition is where this analysis begins.

    Backdrop to the problem

    In the spirit of going where angels—or perhaps gods in this case—fear to tread, in my dissertation I asked whether this argumentation and the consensus view of Israelite religion it produces were coherent. I came to the position that Israelite religion included a council of gods (אלהים (and servant angels (מלאכים (under Yahweh-El from its earliest conceptions well into the Common Era. This conception included the idea that Yahweh was “species unique” in the Israelite mind, and so terms such as henotheism, polytheism, and even monolatry are not sufficiently adequate to label the nature of Israelite religion. Those who use such terms also assume that אלהים is an ontological term in Israelite religion, denoting some quality or qualities that points to polytheism if there are more than one אלהים. This fails to note the use of the term within and without the Hebrew Bible for the departed human dead and lower messenger beings(מלאכים).  Rather, אלהים in Israelite religion denotes the “plane of reality” or domain to which a being properly belongs (for example, the “spirit world” versus the “corporeal world”). For these reasons and others it is more fruitful to describe Israelite religion than seek to define it with a single term.

    Questioning the consensus on such matters requires some explanation, and so the path toward consensus skepticism is briefly traced below via several examples where the consensus view suffers in coherence. These examples demonstrate that the consensus view has been elevated to the status of a presupposition brought to the biblical text that produces circular reasoning in interpretation.

    First, Deutero-Isaiah is hailed as the champion of intolerant monotheism, giving us the first allegedly clear denials of the existence of other gods. And yet it is an easily demonstrated fact that every phrase in Deutero-Isaiah that is taken to deny the existence of other gods has an exact or near exact linguistic parallel in Deuteronomy 4 and 32—two passages which every scholar of Israelite religion, at least to my knowledge, rightly sees as affirming the existence of other gods. Deutero-Isaiah actually puts some of the same denial phrasing into the mouth of personified Babylon in Isaiah 47:8, 10. Should readers conclude that the author has Babylon denying the existence of other cities? Why is it that the same phrases before
    Deutero-Isaiah speak of the incomparability of Yahweh, but afterward communicate a denial that other gods exist?

    Second, the rationale for the shift toward intolerant monotheism is supported by appeal to the idea that since Yahweh was once a junior member of the pantheon, the belief in his rulership over the other gods of the nations in a pantheon setting is a late development.

    The consensus thinking argues that Yahweh assumes a new role as judge over all the world and its gods as Israel emerges from the exile. This assertion is in conflict with several enthronement psalms that date to well before the exilic period. Psalm 29 is an instructive example. Some scholars date the poetry of this
    psalm between the 12th and 10th centuries B.C.E. The very first verse contains plural imperatives directed at the ליםִ֑א ֵניֵ֣בּ ,  ְpointing to a divine council context. Verse 10 ; flood the over enthroned sits LORD Theְ֭ (“יהָוה ַלַמּ֣בּוּל ָיָ֑שׁב ַוֵ֥יּ ֶשׁב ְ֝יהָ֗וה ֶ֣מֶל ְלעוָֹ ֽלם׃ : declares the LORD sits enthroned as king forever”).

    In Israelite cosmology, the flood upon which Yahweh sat was situated over the solid dome that covered the round, flat earth. Since it cannot coherently be asserted that the author would assert that Gentile nations were not under the dome and flood, this verse clearly reflects the idea of world kingship. And in Israelite cosmic geography, reflected in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 and 4:19-20, the nations and their gods were inseparable. The Song of Moses, among the oldest poetry in the Hebrew Bible, echoes the thought. In Exodus 15:18 the text reads: עדֶ ֽו ָלםָֹ֥לע ֖ ְמ ְי ִוהָ֥יה”) ְ The LORD will reign forever and ever”). As F. M. Cross noted over thirty years ago, “The kingship of the gods is a common theme in early Mesopotamian and Canaanite epics. The common scholarly position that the concept of Yahweh as reigning or king is a relatively late development in Israelite thought seems untenable.”

    Lastly, my own work on the divine council in Second Temple period Jewish literature has noted over 170 instances of plural אלהים or אלים in the Qumran material alone. Many of these instances are in the context of a heavenly council. If a divine council of gods had ceased to exist in Israelite religion by the end of the exile, how does one account for these references? The Qumran material and the way it is handled is telling with respect to how hermeneutically entrenched the consensus view has become. As all the scholarly studies on the divine council point out, in terms of council personnel, the אלהים and מלאכים were distinguished, but scholars who do draw attention to the Qumran material say that this deity vocabulary now refers to angels. For example, Mark S. Smith asserts that later Israelite monotheism, as represented by Second Isaiah, “reduced and modified the sense of divinity attached to angels” so that words like אלים in the Dead Sea Scrolls must refer to mere angels or heavenly powers “rather than full-fledged deities.”
    Handy also confidently states that “by the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls . . . the word אלהים was used even by contemporary authors to mean ‘messengers,’ or what we call ‘angels,’ when it was not used to refer to Yahweh . . . these אלהים ,previously understood as deities, had come to be understood as angels.”

    But why must these terms refer to angels? Whence does this assurance emerge? Why does the same vocabulary mean one thing before the exile but another after? A tagged computer search of the Dead Sea Scrolls database reveals there are no lines from any Qumran text where a “deity class” term (אלהים /אלים]בני ([for a member of the heavenly host overlaps with the word מלאכים ,and so the conclusion is not data-driven. In fact, there are only eleven instances in the entire Qumran corpus where these plural deity terms and מלאכים occur within fifty words of each other. Scholars like C. Newsom, trying to account for the data, refer to these deities as “angelic elim,” a term that is oxymoronic with respect to the tier members of the divine council.

    It is difficult to discern what else guides such a conclusion other than the preconception of a certain trajectory toward intolerant monotheism. Such reasoning unfortunately assumes what it seeks to prove. The plural deity words in texts composed after the exile cannot actually express a belief in a council of gods, because that would result in henotheism or polytheism. Rather, the word must mean “angels,” because that would not be henotheism or polytheism. The consensus reconstruction becomes the guiding hermeneutic.

    Yahweh and El, or Yahweh-El in Psalm 82?

    Psalm 82:1 is a focal point for the view that the tiers of the divine council collapsed in later Israelite religion.

    God stands in the divine council;
    in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.
    א ִ֗הים ִנָ֥צּב ַבֲּעַדת־ֵ֑אל
    ְבֶּ֖קֶרב ֱא ִ֣הים ִי ְשׁ ֽ ֹפּט׃

    S. Parker in his “The Beginning of the Reign of God – Psalm 82 as Myth and Liturgy”  states that, while “there is no question that the occurrences of elohim in verses 1a, 8 refer (as usually in the Elohistic psalter) to Yahweh,” and that “most scholars assume that God, that is Yahweh, is presiding over the divine council,” Yahweh is actually just “one of the assembled gods under a presiding El or Elyon.” Parker supports his conclusion by arguing that noting that the verb נצב”) stand”) in 82:1 denotes prosecution, not presiding, in legal contexts.

    Psalm 82, then, depicts the high god El presiding over an assembly of his sons. Yahweh, one of those sons, accuses the others of injustice. His role is prosecutorial, not that of Judge. That role belongs to El. The fact that Yahweh is standing, which means he is not the presiding deity, alerts us to Yahweh’s inferior status.
    Continuing with Parker’s interpretation of Psalm 82, the accusation that follows in verses 2-5 is uttered by Yahweh, the prosecutorial figure:

    “How long will you judge unjustly,
    and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
    ַעד־ָמַ֥תי ִתּ ְשׁ ְפּטוּ־ָ֑עֶול
    וּ ְפֵ֥ני ְ ֝ר ָשִׁ֗עים ִתּ ְשׂאוּ־ֶ ֽסָלה׃
    Render justice to the weak and the fatherless;
    Vindicate the afflicted and the destitute.
    ִשׁ ְפטוּ־ַ֥דל ְוָי֑תוֹם
    ָעִ֖ני ָוָ֣רשׁ ַה ְצִ ֽדּיקוּ׃
    Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
    ַפּ ְלּטוּ־ַ֥דל ְוֶא ְב֑יוֹן
    ִמַ֖יּד ְר ָשִׁ֣עים ַהִ ֽצּילוּ׃
    They have neither knowledge nor understanding;
    they walk around in darkness;
    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
    ֤ל ֹאָ ֽי ְד ֨עוּ׀ ְו ֥ל ֹא ָי ִ֗בינוּ
    ַבֲּחֵשָׁ֥כה ִי ְתַהָ֑לּכוּ
    ִ֝י ֗מּוֹטוּ ָכּל־ ֥מוֹ ְסֵדי ָ ֽאֶרץ׃

    These charges are immediately followed by the judicial sentencing, also considered to
    come from Yahweh:

    I said, “You are gods,
    sons of the Most High, all of you;
    אִני־ָ֭אַמְר ִתּי ֱא ִ֣הים ַאֶ֑תּם
    וּ ְבֵ ֖ני ֶע ְל֣יוֹן ֻכּ ְלֶּ ֽכם׃
    nevertheless, like humankind you shall die,
    and fall like any prince.”
    ָ֭אֵכן ְכָּאָ֣דם ְתּמוּ֑תוּן
    וּ ְכַאַ֖חד ַה ָשִּׂ֣רים ִתּ ֽ ֹפּלוּ׃

    To this point, Yahweh issues the charge and pronounces the sentence. No explanation is offered as to why, in the scene being created, the presumably seated El does not pronounce the sentence. In this reconstruction of the psalm, El apparently has no real function. He is supposed to be declaring the sentence, but the text does not have him doing so. At this juncture, Yahweh takes center stage again in the scene. Smith, whose interpretation is similar to Parker’s, notes that, “[A] prophetic voice emerges in verse 8, calling for God (now called elohim) to assume the role of judge over all the earth. . . . Here Yahweh in effect is asked to assume the job of all the gods to rule their nations in addition to Israel.”  Parker concurs that after Yahweh announces the fate of the gods, “the psalmist then balances this with an appeal to Yahweh to assume the governance of the world.”

    Psalm 82:8 reads:

    Arise, O God, judge the earth;
    for you shall inherit all the nations!
    קוָּ֣מה ֱ֭א ִהים ָשׁ ְפָ ֣טה ָהָ֑אֶרץ
    ִ ֽכּי־ַאָ֥תּה ִ֝תְנַ֗חל ְבָּכל־ַהגּוִֹ ֽים׃

    Note Parker’s words in the preceding quotation closely. In Psalm 82:8 he has the psalmist appealing to Yahweh, called הים ִא ֱ֭in the Elohistic psalter, to rise up (מהָ֣קוּ (to assume governance of the world. This is considered the lynchpin to the argument that there are two deities in this passage, but it appears in reality to be the unraveling of that position. If the prophetic voice now pleads for Yahweh to rise up and become king of the nations and their gods, the verb choice (מהָ֣קוּ” ;rise up”) means that, in the council context of the psalm’s imagery, Yahweh had heretofore been seated. It is actually Yahweh who is found in the posture of presiding, not El. El is in fact nowhere present in 82:8. If it is critical to pay close attention to posture in verse 1, then the same should be done in verse 8. Doing so leads to the opposite conclusion for which Parker argues.

    It is more coherent to have Yahweh as the head of the council in Psalm 82 and performing all the roles in the divine court. The early part of the psalm places Yahweh in the role of accuser; midway he sentences the guilty; finally, the psalmist wants Yahweh to rise and act as the only one who can fix the mess described in the psalm.

    This alternative is in agreement with early Israelite poetry (Psalm 29:10; Exodus 15:18) that has Yahweh ruling from his seat on the waters above the fixed dome that covers all the nations of the earth and statements in Deuteronomy and First Isaiah that Yahweh is האלהים over all the heavens and the earth and all the nations.

    It is also in concert with equations of Yahweh and El in the pre-exilic Deuteronomistic material like 2 Samuel 22:32 (והָ֑יה ְדיֵ֣עֲל ְבַּמ ִאלֵ ֖מי־ ִכּי” ;ִ֥For who is El but Yahweh?”). Finally, it fits cohesively with the
    observation made by Smith elsewhere that the archaeological data shows that Asherah came to be considered the consort of Yahweh by the eighth century B.C.E. To quote Smith, “Asherah, having been a consort of El, would have become Yahweh’s consort . . . only if these two gods were identified by this time.”

    This means that El and Yahweh would have been merged in the high God position in the pantheon by the eighth century B.C.E., begging the question as to why, at least two centuries later, there was a rhetorical need to draw attention to Yahweh as high sovereign.

    Yahweh and El, or Yahweh-El in Deuteronomy 32:8-9?

    Ultimately, the notion that El and Yahweh are separate deities in Psalm 82 must garner support from Deuteronomy 32:8-9, which most scholars see as pre-dating and influencing Psalm 82. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 reads:

    When the Most High gave the nations as an inheritance,                                                                                        בַּהְנֵ֤חל ֶע ְלי ֙וֹן גּוִֹ֔ים                                                                                                                                                            when he divided mankind,
    he fixed the borders of the peoples
    according to the number of [the sons of God].
    ְבַּה ְפִרי֖דוֹ ְבֵּ ֣ני ָאָ֑דם
    ַיֵצּ ֙ב ְגֻּב֣ ת ַע ִ֔מּים
    ְל ִמ ְסַ֖פּר [ בני האלהים]׃
    But the LORD’s portion is his people,
    Jacob his allotted inheritance.
    ִ֛כּי ֵ֥חֶלק ְיהָ֖וֹה ַע֑מּוֹ
    ַיֲע ֖קֹב ֶ֥חֶבל ַנֲחָל ֽתוֹ׃

    The importance of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 for the view that Psalm 82 contains hints of an older polytheistic theology where El and Yahweh were separate deities is stated concisely by Smith:

    The texts of the LXX and the Dead Sea Scrolls show Israelite polytheism which focuses on the central importance of Yahweh for Israel within the larger scheme of the world; yet this larger scheme provides a place for the other gods of the other nations in the world. Moreover, even if this text is mute about the god who presides over the divine assembly, it does maintain a place for such a god who is not Yahweh. Of course, later tradition would identify the figure of Elyon with Yahweh, just as many scholars have done. However, the title of Elyon (“Most High”) seems to denote the figure of El, presider par excellence not only at Ugarit but also in Psalm 82. That the text of LXX and the Dead Sea Scrolls is superior to MT in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is not in dispute. At issue is the notion that the title Elyon in verse 8 must refer to El
    rather than to Yahweh of verse 9. There are several reasons why separating Yahweh and El here does not appear sound.

    First, the literary form of Deuteronomy 32 argues against the idea that Yahweh is not the Most High in the passage. It has long been recognized that a form-critical analysis of Deuteronomy 32 demonstrates the predominance of the lawsuit, or ריב pattern. An indictment (32:15-18) is issued against Yahweh’s elect people, Israel, who had abandoned their true Rock (32:5-6; identified as Yahweh in 32:3) and turned to the worship of the other gods who were under Yahweh’s authority. The judge—Yahweh in the text of Deuteronomy 32—then passes judgment (32:19-29).21 The point is this: as with Psalm 82, the straightforward understanding of the text is that Yahweh is presiding over the lawsuit procedures and heavenly court.

    Second, the separation of El and Yahweh in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 in part depends on the decision to take the כי of 32:9 as adversative, thereby denoting some contrast between Elyon of 32:8 and Yahweh of 32:9 (“However [כי ,[Yahweh’s portion is his people . . .”).

    Other scholars, however, consider the כי of 32:9 to be emphatic: “And lo [כי ,[Yahweh’s portion is his people . . .” Other scholars accept the adversative use but do not separate El and Yahweh in the passage. Since scholarship on this construction lacks consensus, conclusions based on the adversative syntactical choice are not secure.

    Third, Ugaritic scholars have noted that the title “Most High” (‘lyn or the shorter ‘l ) is never used of El in the Ugaritic corpus. In point of fact it is Baal, a second-tier deity, who twice receives this title as the ruler of the gods. The point here is to rebut the argument that the mere occurrence of the term עליון certainly points to El in Deuteronomy 32:8-9. Due to the well-established attribution of Baal epithets to Yahweh, the title עליון could conceivably point directly to Yahweh in Deuteronomy 32:8-9. It is also worth recalling that if Smith is correct that Yahweh and El were merged by the 8th century B.C.E. due to the transferal of Asherah to Yahweh as consort, then a Yahweh-El fusion had occurred before Deuteronomy
    was composed. Hence it would have been natural for the author of Deuteronomy to have Yahweh as the head of the divine council. Indeed, what point would the Deuteronomic author have had in mind to bring back a Yahweh-El separation that had been rejected two hundred years prior?

    Fourth, although עליון is paired with El in the Hebrew Bible, as Miller and Elnes point out, it is most often an epithet of Yahweh.27 Smith and Parker are of course well aware of this, but attribute it to “later tradition,” contending that, in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 the title of Elyon should be associated with El distinct from Yahweh. Again, this would be most curious if Yahweh and El had been fused as early as the eighth century. In this regard, it is interesting that other texts as early as the eighth century speak of Yahweh performing the same deeds credited to עליון in Deuteronomy 32:8-9. For example, Isaiah 10:13 has Yahweh in control of the boundaries (גבולות (of the nations.28 It appears that the presupposition of an early Yahweh and El separation requires the exegete to argue for “a later tradition” at this point.

    Fifth, separating El and Yahweh in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is internally inconsistent within Deuteronomy 32 and Deuteronomy at large. This assertion is demonstrated by the two preceding verses, Deuteronomy 32:6-7. Those two verses attribute no less than five well recognized El epithets to Yahweh, demonstrating that the redactors who fashioned Deuteronomy recognized the union of El with Yahweh, as one would expect at this point in Israel’s religion:

    Is this how you repay the LORD,
    O foolish and senseless people?
    Is he not your father, who created you?
    ֲה־ַלְיהָו ֙ה ִתְּג ְמלוּ־֔זֹאת
    ַ֥עם ָנָ ֖בל ְו֣ל ֹא ָחָ֑כם
    ֲהלוֹא־הוּ ֙א ָאִ֣בי ָקֶּ֔נ

    Who made you and established you?
    ֥הוּא ָ ֽע ְשׂ ֖ ַ ֽוְיכֹ ְנֶ ֽנ ׃
    Remember the days of old;
    Consider the years of past generations;
    Ask your father, and he will inform you,
    Your elders, and they will tell you.
    ְזכֹ ֙ר ְי ֣מוֹת עוָֹ֔לם
    ִ֖בּינוּ ְשׁ֣נוֹת דּוֹר־ָו֑דוֹר
    ְשַׁ֤אל ָאִ֙בי ֙ ְוַיֵ֔גְּד
    ְזֵקֶ֖ני ְו֥י ֹא ְמרוּ ָ ֽל ׃

    These verses clearly contain elements drawn from ancient descriptions of El and attribute them to Yahweh. At Ugarit El is called ‘ab’ adm (“father of mankind”)  and tr ‘il’ abh ‘il’ mlk dyknnh (“Bull El his father, El the king who establishes him”). Yahweh is described as the “father” ( ביִ֣א (ָwho “established you” ( נֶ ֽנֹ ְיכ ְו .(ַ ֽYahweh is also the one who “created” Israel ( נֶ֔קּ (ָin verse six. The root *qny denoting El as creator is found in the Karatepe inscription’s appeal to ‘l qn’ rs (“El, creator of the earth”).  At Ugarit the verb occurs in the El epithet ‘qny w’ adn ‘ilm  (“creator and lord of the gods”),  and Baal calls El qnyn (“our creator”). Genesis 14:19, 22 also attributes this title to El. Deut 32:7 references the לםָ֔עוֹ מוֹת ֣י”) ְages past”) and דוֹר֑וָדּוֹר־ נוֹת֣שׁ”) ְthe years of many generations”) which correspond, respectively, to El’s description (‘lm)  and title ‘ab snm (“father of years”) at Ugarit.

    Since the El epithets of Deuteronomy 32:6-7 are well known to scholars of Israelite religion, those who argue that Yahweh and El are separate deities in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 are left to explain why the redactor of verses 6-7 would unite Yahweh and El and in the next stroke separate them. Those who crafted the text of Deuteronomy 32 would have either expressed diametrically oppositional views of Yahweh’s status in consecutive verses, or have allowed a presumed original separation of Yahweh and El to stand in the text—while adding verses 6-7 in which the names describe a single deity. It is difficult to believe that the scribes
    were this careless, unskilled, or confused. If they were at all motivated by an intolerant monotheism one would expect this potential confusion to have been quickly removed.

    Last, but not least in importance, the idea of Yahweh receiving Israel as his allotted nation from his Father El is internally inconsistent in Deuteronomy. In Deuteronomy 4:19-20, a passage recognized by all who comment on these issues as an explicit parallel to 32:8-9, the text informs us that it was Yahweh who “allotted” (חלק (the nations to the host of heaven and who “took” (לקח (Israel as his own inheritance (cf. Deuteronomy 9:26, 29; 29:25). Neither the verb forms nor the ideas are passive. Israel was not given to Yahweh by El, which is the picture that scholars who separate El and Yahweh in Deuteronomy 32 want to fashion. In view of the close relationship of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 to Deuteronomy 4:19-20, it is more
    consistent to have Yahweh taking Israel for his own terrestrial allotment by sovereign act as Lord of the council.

    Conclusion

    The goal of this article was to critique the coherence of what have become broadly accepted interpretations  of Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32:8-9. These interpretations and the argument for the evolution of Israelite religion that presupposes those interpretations have a number of incongruities for which to account. The issues are important in the effort to describe Israelite religion’s view of God at all stages.

    #871223
    gadam123
    Participant

    To Jews and Christians: Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is the most challenging passage to defend in the Bible.

    Yes, I know it’s a somewhat obscure passage to pick out for that title, but, at least for me, I find it to be true. First, let’s look at the passage itself: “When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.”

    But when you see the other translation like NRSV:

    8 When the Most High[a] apportioned the nations,
    when he divided humankind,
    he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
    according to the number of the gods;[b]
    9 the Lord’s own portion was his people,
    Jacob his allotted share.

    At first glance, this might not seem like such a controversial passage. However, if we look a little closer, we can see that the passage is clearly referring to two different gods: “Most High” and “the LORD”. This is most evident when looking up the verse’s original Hebrew, where “Most High” is called “Elyon” and “the LORD” is called “Yahweh”, who we all know is the God that Jews and Christians serve now.

    When I was a child, I was taught that things like this occurred because God has many different names. However, if you study what most experts now believe about the early Israelites, things begin to make sense. The ancient Israelites were very likely polytheistic, believing in the Canaanite pantheon of gods and goddesses. The peoples in the Canaanite region, including the Israelites, believed in a god who was above all the other gods, “El”. They also believed that every nation had their own regional god. In the Israelites’ case, this was “Yahweh”.

    So why is this the most challenging passage in the Bible? Well, at least to me, it appears to be the clearest reference in the Bible to the Israelites’ early polytheistic beliefs. If the Bible is the inspired work of the one true God, then why is there a passage in it that seems to so clearly acknowledge the presence of other gods? It even relegates “Yahweh”, the God of the Bible, to a secondary status, saying that Jacob’s people are his, but that the other peoples of Canaan belong to others.

    In short, Judaism and Christianity are absolutely built upon the tenet that there are no other gods but Yahweh. But the ancient Israelites, from whom Christianity grew from, did not seem to share those beliefs. In fact, Yahweh himself did not seem to share them in passages such as Exodus 20:3 – “You shall have no other gods before me”.

    What do you say?

    #871225
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    1Corinthians 8:5,6

    For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 

    That’s enough for me

     

    #871226
    Berean
    Participant

    The ministry of angels is also very important:

    1:14 Are not all spirits in the service of God, sent to minister to those who are to inherit salvation?

    #871227
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Gadam

    1Corinthians 8:5,6

    For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    That’s enough for me

    Yes that is very easy choice. You need not worry about the other scriptures that too Old (Testament).

    #871229
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam….The real question is , does Berean actually believe that what he quoted, seeing he believes Jesus is his God, and a ‘PREEXISTING’ Jesus, who created everything. Many trinitarians quote scriptures, and what Jesus said,   but few it seems “actually”  believe him and what he  said.    IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Adam……..gene

    #871231
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Gadam,

    Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:

    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The greatest is, ‘Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one:

    #871232
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

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