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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 25 2010,12:40) Mike,
Does your God have a begotten god?
Hi Kathi,No. My God begat a Son who is himself a “mighty one”. Kathi, does your God pray to God? Mine doesn't.
mike
You know what? I did it again. I've ignored Paul and I am arguing words.
Worship Jehovah your God and serve Him only. That is scripture. And since you didn't answer my “red challenge flag NFL” post, I'll bring up the point again.
Here's where we all are guys. The following are facts that NONE of you can deny:
1. Scripture ONLY ever says to worship Jehovah.
2. The word “proskuneo” can be used to relate WORSHIP or just DOING OBEISANCE.
3. In reference to Jesus, the word can either mean he was WORSHIPPED or SHOWN HONOR AND REVERENCE.
These are all FACTS guys. There's no way around these straightforward FACTS.
Now here is where the problem lies. Some people want to translate “proskuneo” as WORSHIP in reference to Jesus. Will the word itself support this translation? Yes. But DOES SCRIPTURE support this translation? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
So like the “red flag challenge”, you must show abundant and very clear information to overturn the original call of “Worship ONLY Jehovah.
This is what I want you Jesus worshippers to show me. ONE scripture at a time please. Show me the scripture(s) where Jesus all of a sudden went from being a servant of his God to God Almighty Himself.
Ready, set…………GO! (ONLY ONE scripture per post – and please wait until Pierre, Shimmer, Marty, I, or anyone else who knows better than to worship Jesus against the direct command of his God have addressed that scripture before posting another.)
Let's see these “Worshipping Jesus” scriptures. Let's see if they show the CLEAR and ABUNDANT evidence needed to overturn God's original command.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 25 2010,13:17) Mike,
So your God begat a Son who is a begotten god, correct?
Kathi, didn't we just do this a day ago?Yes……..what's your point?
mike
Does the only begotten god pray to your God?
Does the only begotten god sit at the right hand of God?
Is the only begotten god the exact representation of God's nature?
Is the only begotten god the image of God?
Does the begotten god have a kingdom with God in heaven?
Do you offer obeisance to the begotten god?
Do you offer obeisance to God?Please answer just yes or no…thanks Mike!
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 25 2010,12:47) shimmer so you now understand what i was saying a few days ago as true.
Pierre
Ummm, is that those verses ? Terrarica, I will read them, sorry… I havent got around to them yet…but I will.Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 25 2010,20:53) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 25 2010,12:47) shimmer so you now understand what i was saying a few days ago as true.
Pierre
Ummm, is that those verses ? Terrarica, I will read them, sorry… I havent got around to them yet…but I will.
shimmerno ,it was about the internet relation and people
Pierre
Terra,
we are having an language issue again.Quote the thing you claim are not there ,and what you try to demonstrate you are practicing,I am not Kerwin,
So what am i Claiming that is not There?
What does Kerwin have to do with this?
This doesnt make any sense.Quote I have answer your question,and to many others as well ,but it seems you do not understand it,
Actually you havent, I asked you what has God literally told you after you have humbly ask Him.
I cant understand whats so hard about honstly asking God for his view rather than leaning unto our own understandding.Quote God talks to you trough his scriptures but unless you believe that the scriptures are his and so all truth ,his word is useless to you,if you can understand this I do not know.
WHAT? did God talk to Moses through only imprinted scripture? or to Jacob? or to anyone else? how about Paul?
I believe that the Word lives, its something more than just a book that is limited to cover to cover. ITs a living demonstration in your life.
so the Prophets only Heard from God through his “imprinted scripture” that didnt exist until they wrote it??How is it possible that you cant comprehend that The God we worship is a Living God who can Speak, Listen, and Take Action in your Life, He is more than Written words.
God reveals the Truth to whom he wills, Did Peter have the revelation of Christ because somehow he understood scripture? didnt Jesus say that Peter had revelation from above?Quote you are missing mike debates and challenge,i understand.
I will not debate like you say language is the problem.
Im not Missing anything, i rather Discuss what God thinks(a God who is REAL) than to discuss the interpretation of words.
Would have God make it so diffcult to understand the simplicities of life by the scrutiny of litertature, grammer, and langauges?Its very simple what you Got to do is to ask Him and thats all.
Mike,
Quote And just for argument's sake, how far would this “God” take this farse? Would he go as far as praying to HIMSELF? Would he go as far as asking HIMSELF to take the cup away from HIMSELF, but only as HIMSELF wills, not as HIMSELF wills? Would he go as far as purposely telling us that he does not know the day and hour while also telling us he does? Would he go that far? Would he lie to us to keep his secret? Would he call HIMSELF “my God” just to keep us in the dark about this little secret?
And how is it a Farse? Do you not know what leading by example means?
Does God not have the Power to fully Limit himself into a human body without any exterioir or supernatural powers or knowledge and living life as a normal (perfect) human being and yet in the very same time continue to be the Sovereign God without a Body doing what God does best as Spirit?
Is this Possible for God to do if he Simply willed to?I liked how you answered my question with more questions, just wanted to let you know that i noticed =) debate fallacy anyone?
Quote I will bow down in reverence of him and pray that he judges me worthy to be accepted by his God. And I will follow both the command of my God AND my Lord and worship ONLY my God and his God.
So you will Deny Jesus your Worship?
Lets be straight forward, Will you not worship Jesus?Quote I like Mark. But he seems to just want to see it his way no matter what the scriptures say. I think he has been “TAUGHT” more scripture than he has ever READ for himself. I'm not sure, but I think he made a reference to the “gate” that St Peter will supposedly be standing at. And like most “TAUGHT” Christians, he has some other deeply imbedded beliefs that aren't to be found anywhere in scripture. If he keeps talking with me, he will keep learning what scripture REALLY says. Like the Stephen thing. I was going to hit him with 1 Cor 8:6 next, but he's tired of me for the moment. 
peace and love to you D-Linquent,
I have no Idea what he believes, nor do I know much about him, but I saw that he made some good points that i might quote and steal, but heck its all in the bible so its not really palagerism =)
You know well as I do that I dont believe in the Trinity nor would I subject or classify myself unto another name or doctrine.I guess your amnesia Kicked in….. again…..
and this is about the second Time I mention it, in the very same thread.You know that John worshipped Angels literally, and he was corrected, how come you wont refute the point?
Are you ignoring this fact, or should i assume that you agree?Much love,
If John worshipped in Angel, and HE Knew and WALKED with Jesus, Im pretty much sure that all of you would worship in Angel.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 25 2010,12:54) SF: Quote For arguement sake IF the Perfect God limited himself to be Just a mere man yet still fully God in the very same time, Would he not follow his own laws?
And just for argument's sake, how far would this “God” take this farse? Would he go as far as praying to HIMSELF? Would he go as far as asking HIMSELF to take the cup away from HIMSELF, but only as HIMSELF wills, not as HIMSELF wills? Would he go as far as purposely telling us that he does not know the day and hour while also telling us he does? Would he go that far? Would he lie to us to keep his secret? Would he call HIMSELF “my God” just to keep us in the dark about this little secret?SF:
Quote I compelete convinced that if you were in the Presence of Jesus Christ you would worship Him, how could you not? I will bow down in reverence of him and pray that he judges me worthy to be accepted by his God. And I will follow both the command of my God AND my Lord and worship ONLY my God and his God.
SF:
Quote Hmmm seems like another Trinitarian has sparked up some fires in here while I been gone, kept you busy I see.
I like Mark. But he seems to just want to see it his way no matter what the scriptures say. I think he has been “TAUGHT” more scripture than he has ever READ for himself. I'm not sure, but I think he made a reference to the “gate” that St Peter will supposedly be standing at. And like most “TAUGHT” Christians, he has some other deeply imbedded beliefs that aren't to be found anywhere in scripture. If he keeps talking with me, he will keep learning what scripture REALLY says. Like the Stephen thing. I was going to hit him with 1 Cor 8:6 next, but he's tired of me for the moment.peace and love to you D-Linquent,
mike
Now we are even. Like you correctly mentioned earlier, the old addage of “assume” rears it's ugly head.
John 10:1
Truely I assure you: Whoever does not enter the sheepfold through the GATE but climbs in some other way is a thief and a marauder.
John 10:9
I AM the GATE.
Whoever enters through ME will be safe.Like I said, see you at the gate. I will be worshiping Jesus.MY LORD AND MY GOD!!!!! Peace and love-Mark
Mikeboll,
Since you are challenging my scriptural understanding and origin, again “assumeing” (I'm one up on you now), lets get down to the nitty-gritty. Lets put it on the table. I am never afraid to state what I do or how I worship. #1- I have read my bible regularly for myself since I was given it when I was 12. My family knows this as well as God. Also in 07 I undertook the privallage of reading it from the beginning to the end, and was so enlightened that I went through a period of extasy and had to ask God to let me down.
One of the main things I felt I gained and God was telling me was that no matter what I believed, what mattered was what I did. Like the pharasees, you can argue correct observance of scripture all you want, but your actions will show God and the world what you love-him, the world, or yourself.
So correct bible observer, besides the argueing on here what do you do? Who benifits from Mikeboll? Do you help the homeless, clothe the naked, visit the sick and in prison, help widows and or orphans? Tell the truth. This will tell me who you worship. You claim to worship God the Father correctly, unlike us flawed misled individuals who love and worship him and his son. Let's leave that out for now. What do you do? What is your ministry? I'll start with mine.
I volunteer Sundays making breakfast for the homeless downtown. I have 2 kids I sponsor through Christian Children's Fund, and have since I was 25.(I'm 46). I am a member of my churches choir. I give change to people who ask me for money and pray for people I know that are suffering and the world at large. I bbq for an adult group home for retarded people occasionally. I attend church and give according to how much I am making. I smile at every person I come across and hold doors open for anyone behind me, no matter what color they might be.I wore a button that said”Ilove you” for a time, to discover how bad the world does not know love. I wore it for three months and had 4 good reactions, and many, many strange or outright ugly ones. I know I am not “earning” my salvation, or trying to repay God, but I am making a vain attempt to be his child, and would gladly give my life for him. I live near Memphis, and everyone I know knows that I believe the media has tricked the world into believing that Elvis is “The King” My fantasy is that someone knowing that would ask me to deny Christ with a gun to my head, and after I told them never, they scatter my brains across a parking lot. If it were up to me I wish it was yesterday. Now, like you told me, your turn. By honest witness what do you do? Peace- Mark
Okay Mark,
I'm sorry. I thought you referred to this:
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
And I was jokingly thinking to myself, “But we might not end up at the same gate, Mark”. Then I thought, “He didn't even TRY to answer any of the trinity points I made. But if he's willing to believe the traditions of men over scriptures on the trinity issue, maybe he also believes St Peter is waiting at 'the pearly gates' to let him in – for that is also a man-made tradition like the trinity doctrine.”
It was a pot-shot at you and was fueled by a little frustration that you want to claim what you want, but then not even ATTEMPT to answer the clear and simple truths I posted about the trinity.
Mark, DO you believe St. Peter is waiting at “the pearly gates” of heaven?
As far a listing off what I do for others, I will refrain. For this is what Jesus said:
Matthew 6:2
“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.I am glad you help others, I do to. And I am glad you read the actual words in the Bible, I am in Titus on my third time through right now. I am NOT glad that you have hard-headedly stated your beliefs, but are not willing to defend those beliefs against scripture. I believe what scripture says Mark, and will GLADLY show others the reason for the faith I have.
You have unwittingly found yourself in this situation:
Mark 7 NIV
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
You worship God in vain Mark, for you worship some man-made trinity “God” who doesn't even exist. You worship someone other than Jehovah against DIRECT commands of God. Aren't you the least bit afraid that you might someday hear these words:
Matthew 7 NIV
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’Don't you understand what Jesus is saying here? It's not about how great you think Jesus is or how many people you “save” by teaching them to also worship Jesus as God. It is the ones who do the Father's will who will enter God's Kingdom. Jesus said he will say “I never knew you” to those who actually claimed to do great things in his name. He's not only saying this to rapists and murderers Mark, but to people who LOVE him and THOUGHT they were doing right by him. People like the trinitarians who go against the will of the Father in heaven by giving Jesus the same glory and worship. Jesus always taught that the Father was greater Mark. Jesus always taught that the Father should be worshipped. Jesus always taught that there is only ONE God, and it is the Father, not himself.
I get it man, you think Jesus is so great and you love him so much you WANT to give him “all you have”………including your worship. But you do so in DIRECT OPPOSITION to “the will of your Father in heaven”, Mark.
peace and love,
mikeSF:
Quote I liked how you answered my question with more questions, just wanted to let you know that i noticed =) debate fallacy anyone?
How's this for a direct answer? NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD. So no, God did not come in a form that everybody was able to SEE. John says no one has EVER seen God……..and he writes this AFTER many people had seen Jesus.
SF:
Quote So you will Deny Jesus your Worship?
Lets be straight forward, Will you not worship Jesus?
That's right. How many ways can I say it? I WILL NOT WORSHIP JESUS. I will worship ONLY the One who Jesus, my Lord, tells me to worship. D, Jesus wants to know why you call him Lord, but not do what he says.SF:
Quote but I saw that he made some good points that i might quote and steal,
I haven't seen any “good points” he's made yet. Everything he's claimed can be EASILY refuted by God's Word. So, do your best my friend. Post one of his “good points”, and let's get down to it.Won't anyone take me up on my challenge? Post your best scripture that says we should worship Jesus. Let us true believers of scripture have a shot at it.
SF:
Quote You know that John worshipped Angels literally, and he was corrected, how come you wont refute the point?
Are you ignoring this fact, or should i assume that you agree?
D, you are proving MY point here. John worshipped someone other than God and was told what? To worship ONLY God. Not “God AND Jesus”, right? But ONLY God.peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 25 2010,13:51) Does the only begotten god pray to your God?
Does the only begotten god sit at the right hand of God?
Is the only begotten god the exact representation of God's nature?
Is the only begotten god the image of God?
Does the begotten god have a kingdom with God in heaven?
Do you offer obeisance to the begotten god?
Do you offer obeisance to God?Please answer just yes or no…thanks Mike!
Yes to all Kathi. Again, what's your point?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 25 2010,10:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 25 2010,13:51) Does the only begotten god pray to your God?
Does the only begotten god sit at the right hand of God?
Is the only begotten god the exact representation of God's nature?
Is the only begotten god the image of God?
Does the begotten god have a kingdom with God in heaven?
Do you offer obeisance to the begotten god?
Do you offer obeisance to God?Please answer just yes or no…thanks Mike!
Yes to all Kathi. Again, what's your point?mike
Hi Mike,
Thanks for answering and for your patience. The point will come. Please continue in your patience.Do you believe that the Son is the one true begotten god and is from the one true not begotten God?
Do you believe that the one true begotten god is the ruler of all creation?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2010,04:01) Hi Mike,
Thanks for answering and for your patience. The point will come. Please continue in your patience.Do you believe that the Son is the one true begotten god and is from the one true not begotten God?
Do you believe that the one true begotten god is the ruler of all creation?
Yes, Jesus is the begotten god who was begotten by the unbegotten God Jehovah as the first of His works, therefore becoming the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of the creation by God.Yes, Jehovah is the ruler of all creatioin, although he has appointed His firstborn Son as King and ruler for a while. Later, His Son will relinquish that reign and God will rule His creation directly.
mike
Mike, you brought nothing to what I asked, and apparently do not. This is not doing things for anyone to see here. You or anyone else knows me personally on here. It's anouther thing I love about this place, you can be as honest and open as you want, as long as you and God knows it's the truth. You can't handle the truth obiously, because you cannot support your love for God with actions. I can get witnesses to any of the points I made, most importantly God. I ask you one more time. What are you doing with all this exclusively correct worship? peace and love…..Mark P.S. I Love you…..
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