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Mark
one more thing, justification of our actions will be done before Christ not before men,so we all have to face the true God,
if you can based on the scriptures all of them ,and say to yourself Mark, this is the true understanding it is confirmed in scriptures and so approved by God,well then you do not have to worry about it ,and so it is the others that have to come to that understanding ,but if you can not do that then well you know………
Pierre
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 22 2010,21:52) You also would not understand how he relates to the father, but it is explained and prophysied in the OT as the one to come to rule, and he is the King, and since I already showed you how he remains with us in sprit until the end of the world (you couldn't explain that, you must agree) they, dare I say it, THE TRINITY OF GOD, deserve worship and will recieve it, now (bettter) , or later.
Hi Mark,You have much to say and I don't discredit it as “fluff”. But I post in many other threads here and just don't have the time and patience to answer very long posts that encompass many topics.
I want to talk to you about the actual definition of worship.
I want to discuss Luke 24 and any other scriptures involving the supposed “worship” of Jesus. I would like to start a debate thread for us, if that's okay. I like the Q and A debates, for it keeps the posts small. I will make a small post in which will be one bolded question for you to directly answer. After answering it, you can post whatever you want and ask one bolded question, which I must directly answer.Are you willing? I'm not saying, “Let's go to war!”
I'm saying that if we take it point by point, question by question, scripture by scripture, we can both learn much more than posting many thoughts at once. Let me know.For now, I'll address just one of your many points – the one quoted above.
Micah 5:4
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of YHVH,
in the majesty of the name of YHVH his God.This passage is about Jesus. If Jesus IS God, then why will he shepherd his flock in the strength, majesty and name of YHVH………..HIS GOD?
Does God Almighty have a God Mark? Jesus does. He says that our God is also his God.
Let me know about the debate.
peace and love,
mikeOr Mark, if you prefer, we can keep the discussion right here.
But let's still do the one point at a time thing – so all of yours get answered.
First up, the definition of “proskuneo”.
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1) to the Jewish high priests
2) to God
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons
Do you notice definition 3a? Of men and beings of superior rank. So the point is not how Mirriam Webster defines “worship”, the point is that “proskuneo” does not always mean “worship”. It is based on the words meaning a dog licking it's master's hand. It refers to an act of subservience that can SOMETIMES be used for a subservient demonstration to God. But it doesn't always mean “worship” Mark.
Do you understand and believe this fact Mark?
mike
( This is an example of a Q and A debate)
Mike,
Thanks. Like you said, you are very active in here and post on alot of subjects, I do not want to complicate your schedule. I think our “debate” has run it's course. I know that we both are very convicted of our views. Lets just break it down into a “final arguement”, “shake hands”, and get on with our lives.
I believe true to the topic title, this debate was who should we worship, and it has expanded into weather or not the people in the bible showing reverance were worshipping Jesus or giving him a token of civil respect.
You and I have exemplified the core differences in this debate. I believe in the trinity. I have and always will. This has only strengthened that for me. Thats one thing I like about this forum. I gets me to think about what I believe and why, and also to get to “page flippin” in my bible. You do not for whatever reason, and you see things through those “non-trinitarian glasses”. That is why you do not believe those instances were worship, and ignore the very definition and sprit of worship for a translation of “proskuneo”, and even stated that Jesus was not God. Way back someone posted the concept of why Jesus claiming to be Gods son was so outrageous to the pharasees, because in the Jewish culture the son had all the authority of the Father. I always wondered why they got bent out of shape at that. We were and are God's sons(believers). But they understood him to be claiming to be God, which he was and is. Joseph wasn't his Father, God was, and that makes him equal to God in power and authority. His signs and wonders proved that. He wasn't just a man. He was man, and he was God, not just a prophet. He didn't claim his rightful position as an example to us about humility and meekness, which most of us cannot comprehend. This is another thing that has expanded my understanding, and for that, thank you.
For me, the most supportive example is the scripture that Kathi quoted. No matter what proskuneo means, when I put myself at the scene of Jesus raising up from the earth, if I bowed down to the ground in awe and reverance to him, I would be worshipping him in the most profound way. Looking up the definition of worship locked that in for me.
Two last things I would like to mention. Knowing why we have our intrepretations, I expanded it into the point blank definitive concept that nails down the trinity for me. Not that it has been programed into me, but reading the bible and contemplating scripture as a whole and not a sentence- is the un-answerable question to non-trinitarians– How can Jesus be with us until the end of the world and be in heaven at the same time at the Fathers right hand? The answer to me is simple-by the power of the holy spirit-the sprit he promised after he rose from the dead.
Second, I know I started to get off track, but I also brought the concept of Worship at large, that no matter what either one professes to on here, or any Christian, what shows what you worship is where you place your heart and actions. It shows what you worship.
Thank you for taking the time to correspond with me, this has given me new focus in praying. And I will close with this. God loves you. I love you. See you at the Gate………. Peace Mark
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 21 2010,21:03) Kathi: Quote Mike,
What do you mean that I can't refine the question? I don't like your question, it is loaded and not an honest question. I think civil worship vs. religious worship is much more clear to describe the differences of worship.
Hi Kathi,Can you find me a lexicon or Greek dictionary that lists as definitions for proskuneo “civil worship” and “religious worship”? I will stick to those lexicons that say it is either “worship” period, or that it is “doing obeisance” which is not any form of “worship” whatsoever. I will never ” civil worship” Jesus or the 12 main ones who will rule with him. I will do obeisance to them I'm sure, but I won't do anything that is called “worship” to them. Any form of “worship” I give will be to Jehovah my God – just like Jesus taught us.
Kathi:
Quote I noticed that you overlooked a simple word and I wonder why. It seems deceitful but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
There was no deceit involved. I just couldn't ask him which times were “worship” and which times were “obeisance” – so I'm glad you brought it up. Which proskuneos in reference to Jesus were “worship” Kathi? And how do you know? I don't want your guesses either. I want to know SCRIPTURALLY how you know a particular instance was “worship” instead of “obeisance”.Kathi:
Quote Also, I don't believe that Mark, Keith or I ever said that proskuneo was always religious worship.
That was Keith's big claim when he joined in the conversation Kathi – that there is NEVER a use of proskuneo in the NT that doesn't mean “worship”.As far as Luke, look at NETNotes. Tell me if you think the words imply that as Jesus was going up, they were bowing down. Here is how the Message Version renders Luke 24:
50-51He then led them out of the city over to Bethany. Raising his hands he blessed them, and while blessing them, took his leave, being carried up to heaven.
52-53And they were on their knees, worshiping him. They returned to Jerusalem bursting with joy. They spent all their time in the Temple praising God. Yes.
I read this as, “As he was in the process of blessing them and being carried up to heaven, they were on their knees showing reverence as he went. Then they went to Jerusalem.”
Now your turn. Show me the SCRIPTURE that makes it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that anyone actually “worshipped” Jesus at any time.
Kathi, do you watch NFL Football? When a coach throws a red flag challenge to the ref's call, they review the play in slow motion from many different camera angles to see if it really happened as they called it on the field. But in order to overturn the ruling on the field, it must be abundantly and positively clear that the original ruling was flawed. If they can't get a good enough camera angle that shows abundant and positively clear evidence of a bad call, the ruling on the field will always stand.
God is the referee that made the original ruling here. Satan has thrown in the red challenge flag. You are the line judge who is looking at all the footage in slow motion from all the camera angles. You must be able to find ABUNDANT and POSITIVELY CLEAR footage in order to overturn God's original on the field ruling. You are not allowed to just “guess” or “think” there may be something in one of the camera angles to overturn the ruling. You must have ABUNDANT and POSITIVELY CLEAR information to overturn. Do you have that Kathi?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,you said:
Quote Can you find me a lexicon or Greek dictionary that lists as definitions for proskuneo “civil worship” and “religious worship”? I will stick to those lexicons that say it is either “worship” period, or that it is “doing obeisance” which is not any form of “worship” whatsoever. I will never ” civil worship” Jesus or the 12 main ones who will rule with him. I will do obeisance to them I'm sure, but I won't do anything that is called “worship” to them. Any form of “worship” I give will be to Jehovah my God – just like Jesus taught us. What is your definition of obeisance? And, can a Christian offer obeisance towards God? Can a Christian offer obeisance towards a god?
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 23 2010,07:03) Second, I know I started to get off track, but I also brought the concept of Worship at large, that no matter what either one professes to on here, or any Christian, what shows what you worship is where you place your heart and actions. It shows what you worship.
Hi MarkWhat you said here strikes at the heart of the matter. Where our treasure is, is where our heart is, and at some point will become what we “Worship”.
Jesus required total devotion from his followers even if it meant their death as a Martyr. That my friend is “worship”.
Jesus said the first commandment is “thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and soul and mind” and also states if you love me keep MY COMMANDMENTS.
If you look close you will find anti-trinitarians cannot commit to saying they love Jesus with all their heart, soul and mind. They cannot commit to saying that they serve and obey him with absolute devotion and surrender, which would in reality be Idolatry if Jesus is not God.
They talk the talk but do not walk the walk by giving Jesus the same honour as the Father.
Paul emphatically preached Jesus as first in his life. Paul said he was Jesus bondslave and prisoner and that Jesus was his prize! Total abandonment to Jesus. How does an anti-trin reconcile that with the Mosaic law?
This is the test of those that truly know him and those who don't.
No man can say that Jesus is “Lord” but by the Holy Spirit!
Blessings Keith
Can anyone please explain to me what worship is, JA seems to think worship is to bow down to only.
However I would say that people in church who are singing, holding up their hands, and praying to Jesus, THIS is worship.
Scripture says every knee will bow to Jesus, thats different.
Who is right ?
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 24 2010,14:30) Can anyone please explain to me what worship is, JA seems to think worship is to bow down to only. However I would say that people in church who are singing, holding up their hands, and praying to Jesus, THIS is worship.
Scripture says every knee will bow to Jesus, thats different.
Who is right ?
shimmerread this story very slowly, and pay much attention to what is said;this will answer your question ,if not drop me a note;
2Ki 5:1 Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the LORD had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy.
2Ki 5:2 Now bands from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife.
2Ki 5:3 She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.”
2Ki 5:4 Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said.
2Ki 5:5 “By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold and ten sets of clothing.
2Ki 5:6 The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”
2Ki 5:7 As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!”
2Ki 5:8 When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.”
2Ki 5:9 So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house.
2Ki 5:10 Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”
2Ki 5:11 But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy.
2Ki 5:12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.
2Ki 5:13 Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!”
2Ki 5:14 So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.
2Ki 5:15 Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God . He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. Please accept now a gift from your servant.”
2Ki 5:16 The prophet answered, “As surely as the LORD lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.
2Ki 5:17 “If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD.
2Ki 5:18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this.”
2Ki 5:19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said.
After Naaman had traveled some distance,
2Ki 5:20 Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said to himself, “My master was too easy on Naaman, this Aramean, by not accepting from him what he brought. As surely as the LORD lives, I will run after him and get something from him.”
2Ki 5:21 So Gehazi hurried after Naaman. When Naaman saw him running toward him, he got down from the chariot to meet him. “Is everything all right?” he asked.
2Ki 5:22 “Everything is all right,” Gehazi answered. “My master sent me to say, ‘Two young men from the company of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talent of silver and two sets of clothing.’ ”
2Ki 5:23 “By all means, take two talents,” said Naaman. He urged Gehazi to accept them, and then tied up the two talents of silver in two bags, with two sets of clothing. He gave them to two of his servants, and they carried them ahead of Gehazi.
2Ki 5:24 When Gehazi came to the hill, he took the things from the servants and put them away in the house. He sent the men away and they left.
2Ki 5:25 Then he went in and stood before his master Elisha.
“Where have you been, Gehazi?” Elisha asked.
“Your servant didn’t go anywhere,” Gehazi answered.
2Ki 5:26 But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to take money, or to accept clothes, olive groves, vineyards, flocks, herds, or menservants and maidservants?
2Ki 5:27 Naaman’s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever.” Then Gehazi went from Elisha’s presence and he was leprous, as white as snow.Pierre
OK. Thanks Terrarica, I have quickly read that , and will read it again later when I have more time. But what does it mean ?
I would say worship is what people do in many chruch denominations to Jesus today.
I would say to bow down in respect and love and honor of Jesus is ok.
But to sing, worship, pray to, love as much as or more than God, this is worship, JA says its not ?
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 24 2010,15:08) OK. Thanks Terrarica, I have quickly read that , and will read it again later when I have more time. But what does it mean ? I would say worship is what people do in many chruch denominations to Jesus today.
I would say to bow down in respect and love and honor of Jesus is ok.
But to sing, worship, pray to, love as much as or more than God, this is worship, JA says its not ?
shimmerI have ask you to read it slowly and pay attention to what is said,
understand the conversation between the prophet and Naaman.
In your comment i can see you have not understand nothing.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
Quote this is the way i have seen it;
Than thats your first error, by doing the things the way you see it. God thoughts are higher than ours, what we believe or the way we see things dont matter at all compared to God.Quote I am taking Gods word totaly as inspired,and so believe it to the words it self;
my prayer is to God to give me the understanding that he me to know,so that i can become what he expect of me.
but i read the scriptures not to just have a over view of it ,this will show that i really do not have much faith in God ,but i told you already that the word of God is to me the only truth,
The Living word is not just something inspired but living inside your life and is manifested in your actions. The Truth is found in knowing God. sometimes not understanding and having faith and trust is supplication to do Gods will. The things that God does are not always understood, and the purposes are mysterious, what he expects is to trust and take that leap of faith without any doubt that he will sustain you.
What If you were traped in a hole without a bible, will the word of God not still reach you? The Word that is not limited by a cover, or our understanding and interpretation.Quote my other prayer is to read the total of scriptures and ask him to engrave all of it in and on my hearth so that it can not be removed just as a permanent engravement if you try to remove it it breaks,
this i did like many years ago,
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
The truth is found in God, because he is the Author of it, and he will and can write this Truth into your very heart and mind.Quote wen i did all of that above ,i slowly begone to change ,from the inside out,the first thing i notice being working in construction very low language ,swearing ect.i realize that even being and discuss with the fellows i could not ear the bad part of there language,then i ask God for all things to honest i ask him for all i do,even now that i answer you,sometimes i have no clue what to answer and then i ask ,i know he will tell me .it is coming from that scriptures he hammered to my hearth,this is what i mean what living word does ,
There is a time for everything under the heavens, there is a time to speak and a time to be silent.
In silence we can listen, thats why when we pray there must be a time to listen. The task of change comes through Christ, we cannot change by mere will, but we change by knowing Him.Quote keep in mind God only works with what he has,if there is nothing that is his you have no fruit and are dead even you are living. but if you put his words in your hearth and believe in them that you put your live on it.
God is the Creator, he brings everything under his Will.
Romans 9
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [/b]
God works with whatever he wants, or how he wills, is there any limitation to his works by our works?
As Jesus said, If he does his Fathers works than believe him, if he does not, dont.
But if we do the Fathers works, is it ours to cliam? all Glory and honor, whether it be a good fruit or the worst of alll belongs to him. God has chosen the foolish things to bring down the best things of this world.
1 Corinthians 1
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Quote but if you put his words in your hearth and believe in them that you put your live on it.
We cannot, but he can.
Jeremiah 24:7
And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.Quote i remember a little story about a man who is to cross the Niagara falls with a wheelbarrow and he ask a boy ,do you think i going to make it ?the boy answer him yes for sure ,and the man answer back to the boy well then jump in the wheelbarrow ,but the boy never did. is you faith like the boy?
There is not point to answer, just to cross.
Faith is not demonstrated by what is said but taking action without any doubt.
Its like sitting on a chair, do you have doubt that it will break when you sit, yet you sit daily without ever thinking that it could break at any moment.
Living Faith, is like breathing without any hestitation.Quote is this answer your question??
I dont understand how Two people who cliam to know God can have a difference in opinion.
1 Corinthians 1
10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
How can we be divided and cliam to worship the same God?
I feel shame for such a division in todays world.
Because instead of cliaming to be baptized by Paul or Peter, Today we cliam Trinity, Anti-Trinitarin, Full-Gospel, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Evanglical, Catholic and etc.
We are baptized in those names now, but is Christ divided?
What happen I am a Slave to Christ? I picked up my cross and follow Christ? or saying I know Jesus
The Gospel is that He Still lives.
The Only reason one would claim a title under such demoniations is because they do not know God when they think they do.
A full impact by God will require change, and we will never be the same again.Did Paul Change because he wanted to? was he not like many of us out in the world ready to devour anything to be succeful, to please our selt-destructing behavior?
The Impact of Jesus is what changed him for life.
There is no steps, there is no right manner of religious pacts or rituals to be holier.
Having a Experience with God is enough daily for the rest of our lives.
our daily BreadQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 24 2010,07:22) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 23 2010,07:03) Second, I know I started to get off track, but I also brought the concept of Worship at large, that no matter what either one professes to on here, or any Christian, what shows what you worship is where you place your heart and actions. It shows what you worship.
Hi MarkWhat you said here strikes at the heart of the matter. Where our treasure is, is where our heart is, and at some point will become what we “Worship”.
Jesus required total devotion from his followers even if it meant their death as a Martyr. That my friend is “worship”.
Jesus said the first commandment is “thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and soul and mind” and also states if you love me keep MY COMMANDMENTS.
If you look close you will find anti-trinitarians cannot commit to saying they love Jesus with all their heart, soul and mind. They cannot commit to saying that they serve and obey him with absolute devotion and surrender, which would in reality be Idolatry if Jesus is not God.
They talk the talk but do not walk the walk by giving Jesus the same honour as the Father.
Paul emphatically preached Jesus as first in his life. He said Jesus was his bondslave and prisoner and that Jesus was his prize! Total abandonment to Jesus. How does an anti-trin reconcile that with the Mosaic law?
This is the test of those that truly know him and those who don't.
No man can say that Jesus is “Lord” but by the Holy Spirit!
Blessings Keith
Amen-peaceQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 24 2010,07:30) Can anyone please explain to me what worship is, JA seems to think worship is to bow down to only. However I would say that people in church who are singing, holding up their hands, and praying to Jesus, THIS is worship.
Scripture says every knee will bow to Jesus, thats different.
Who is right ?
Ya know, I didn't even get into this. When all the churches in the entire country get up and sing, dance, and praise and pray to Jesus, and are instructed to heal drive out demons in his name etc. etc. it is wrong? Thanks for bring that up Shimmer- Peace and love- hope everything is well- MarkQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 24 2010,16:12) Hi Pierre, Quote this is the way i have seen it;
Than thats your first error, by doing the things the way you see it. God thoughts are higher than ours, what we believe or the way we see things dont matter at all compared to God.Quote I am taking Gods word totaly as inspired,and so believe it to the words it self;
my prayer is to God to give me the understanding that he me to know,so that i can become what he expect of me.
but i read the scriptures not to just have a over view of it ,this will show that i really do not have much faith in God ,but i told you already that the word of God is to me the only truth,
The Living word is not just something inspired but living inside your life and is manifested in your actions. The Truth is found in knowing God. sometimes not understanding and having faith and trust is supplication to do Gods will. The things that God does are not always understood, and the purposes are mysterious, what he expects is to trust and take that leap of faith without any doubt that he will sustain you.
What If you were traped in a hole without a bible, will the word of God not still reach you? The Word that is not limited by a cover, or our understanding and interpretation.Quote my other prayer is to read the total of scriptures and ask him to engrave all of it in and on my hearth so that it can not be removed just as a permanent engravement if you try to remove it it breaks,
this i did like many years ago,
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
The truth is found in God, because he is the Author of it, and he will and can write this Truth into your very heart and mind.Quote wen i did all of that above ,i slowly begone to change ,from the inside out,the first thing i notice being working in construction very low language ,swearing ect.i realize that even being and discuss with the fellows i could not ear the bad part of there language,then i ask God for all things to honest i ask him for all i do,even now that i answer you,sometimes i have no clue what to answer and then i ask ,i know he will tell me .it is coming from that scriptures he hammered to my hearth,this is what i mean what living word does ,
There is a time for everything under the heavens, there is a time to speak and a time to be silent.
In silence we can listen, thats why when we pray there must be a time to listen. The task of change comes through Christ, we cannot change by mere will, but we change by knowing Him.Quote keep in mind God only works with what he has,if there is nothing that is his you have no fruit and are dead even you are living. but if you put his words in your hearth and believe in them that you put your live on it.
God is the Creator, he brings everything under his Will.
Romans 9
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [/b]
God works with whatever he wants, or how he wills, is there any limitation to his works by our works?
As Jesus said, If he does his Fathers works than believe him, if he does not, dont.
But if we do the Fathers works, is it ours to cliam? all Glory and honor, whether it be a good fruit or the worst of alll belongs to him. God has chosen the foolish things to bring down the best things of this world.
1 Corinthians 1
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Quote but if you put his words in your hearth and believe in them that you put your live on it.
We cannot, but he can.
Jeremiah 24:7
And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.Quote i remember a little story about a man who is to cross the Niagara falls with a wheelbarrow and he ask a boy ,do you think i going to make it ?the boy answer him yes for sure ,and the man answer back to the boy well then jump in the wheelbarrow ,but the boy never did. is you faith like the boy?
There is not point to answer, just to cross.
Faith is not demonstrated by what is said but taking action without any doubt.
Its like sitting on a chair, do you have doubt that it will break
when you sit, yet you sit daily without ever thinking that it could break at any moment.
Living Faith, is like breathing without any hestitation.Quote is this answer your question??
I dont understand how Two people who cliam to know God can have a difference in opinion.
1 Corinthians 1
10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
How can we be divided and cliam to worship the same God?
I feel shame for such a division in todays world.
Because instead of cliaming to be baptized by Paul or Peter, Today we cliam Trinity, Anti-Trinitarin, Full-Gospel, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Evanglical, Catholic and etc.
We are baptized in those names now, but is Christ divided?
What happen I am a Slave to Christ? I picked up my cross and follow Christ? or saying I know Jesus
The Gospel is that He Still lives.
The Only reason one would claim a title under such demoniations is because they do not know God when they think they do.
A full impact by God will require change, and we will never be the same again.Did Paul Change because he wanted to? was he not like many of us out in the world ready to devour anything to be succeful, to please our selt-destructing behavior?
The Impact of Jesus is what changed him for life.
There is no steps, there is no right manner of religious pacts or rituals to be holier.
Having a Experience with God is enough daily for the rest of our lives.
our daily Bread
SFnow that you have made your point,with your personal views,
and what matters is that you are satisfied ;your scriptures do not in no way condemn me ,on the contraire mon frere,but i have seen your debate here ,you have shown me your real inside and purpose of your question,
anyway how many errors do you see??
how many assumptions you making???
how much is your own ignorance spills over???
do you really believe that the truth can be covered by your flash light???I am not impressed with your truth.and your spirit
Pierre
“The Living word is not just something inspired but living inside your life and is manifested in your actions.”
and
“There is a time for everything under the heavens, there is a time to speak and a time to be silent.
In silence we can listen, thats why when we pray there must be a time to listen. The task of change comes through Christ, we cannot change by mere will, but we change by knowing Him. ” -SFI'm diggin it. Godbless-Mark
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 24 2010,18:26) “The Living word is not just something inspired but living inside your life and is manifested in your actions.” and
“There is a time for everything under the heavens, there is a time to speak and a time to be silent.
In silence we can listen, thats why when we pray there must be a time to listen. The task of change comes through Christ, we cannot change by mere will, but we change by knowing Him. ” -SFI'm diggin it. Godbless-Mark
Markwhat about Jacob fighting the angel of God???
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 24 2010,04:10) SF now that you have made your point,with your personal views,
and what matters is that you are satisfied ;your scriptures do not in no way condemn me ,on the contraire mon frere,but i have seen your debate here ,you have shown me your real inside and purpose of your question,
anyway how many errors do you see??
how many assumptions you making???
how much is your own ignorance spills over???
do you really believe that the truth can be covered by your flash light???I am not impressed with your truth.and your spirit
Pierre
Tierrarica,I never claimed any personal views execpt for questions that are legitmate, appropiate, and necessary to ask.
You said you have the Spirit to discern right?
How do you come to the conclusion that im condemning you when thats not the truth, yet you said that You want Truth correct?My purpose of the questions, is why we cannot agree, and put trust and faith in God who is the Truth and is the author of the Word living and breathing, rather than putting your trust in a cover and imprinted letters.
Its an error to go by the way you see things, one must dedicate their lives to see the way God see's things.
lean not on your own understanding, isnt this the Truth?God chose the foolish things, I would be proud to be ignorant yet by the grace of God be saved from glorifying myself rather than him. Fear of God is revelation for the wise, and the Love of God is quenching for a thristy soul.
I hold no flashlight, for Christ is the light of men, through him we become children of light.
Actually i was not hoping for your approval, but your understanding yet the Word is not understood if one does not have the Holy Spirit to discern.
My doubts is in your ability to discern anything i write, because you always have a misunderstanding, yet you puff yourself up with your own understanding. I seek Gods approval and your fellowship as Children of God, but if cant simply discern from friend nor foe, are you really in the right place?
If i dont do my Father works, dont believe me
If I do, why dont you believe?Truth is if you were connected to God than God would let you know the Truth about me and my life, and you wouldnt have responded so ignorantly.
Ive said this to you before and i say it again,
Deny yourself, because you are your own worst enemy.
-From Simply a Fool
SF
what you want me to say to that??wen at first i told you this the way i see it ,,,or understand it;;this is not to overrun God or Christ ,I was talking to you and in that way try to make connection were we see the same things and so be able to build up from there;
but that you lost and could not figure it out;this my error ,right??
I may have a misunderstanding someone everyday tell me that on this site,this is also related to want to teach rather than learn or connect;
many here really do not care what they say ,even with scriptures ,then they say this is not the they see it,you understand why we can not agree??
only two people with the same love for the truth of God will connect.and one more thing you are not Christ,you have to prove that you are genuine,
why?? even satan change himself in a angel of truth.i have seen many christians in my live ,if you would say the true christians are 10 and the bad ones 1 scale how many are 10 ,not many; we can not see this so you prove your self ,but God judge all.
to be honest before God do you know what that mean???
Pierre
Mark:
Quote I believe in the trinity. I have and always will. But the trinity isn't scriptural at all – why believe in it? In fact, just forget the scriptures for one second and explain one secular conundrum with the trinity. Trinitarians will tell you that the idea of a trinity “God-head” is all throughout scripture. They say that has been the truth of the matter since the beginning. So here's the secular conundrum – why did it take 55 years for the Holy Spirit to be added as one of the members of the God-head? The original Nicene Creed of 325 said nothing of the sort. It was not until the Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 that the Holy Spirit was “recognized” as the third member of the “God-head”.
Could you imagine the TRUE religion totally forgetting about one of the members of God for 55 years? You see Mark, this is just one of the many, many flaws with the trinity doctrine. Maybe someday, we'll discuss it.
On the scriptural side of things, what about Micah 5:4? Will you just turn a blind eye to that one? This scripture CLEARLY says that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his God. And what about that point I made? Jesus calls Jehovah “my God” six times in the scriptures. Mark, does your God have a God? Mine doesn't.
Mark:
Quote Thats one thing I like about this forum. I gets me to think about what I believe and why, and also to get to “page flippin” in my bible.
I agree. In fact, that's my favorite thing about this site.Mark:
Quote and even stated that Jesus was not God. Way back someone posted the concept of why Jesus claiming to be Gods son was so outrageous to the pharasees, because in the Jewish culture the son had all the authority of the Father.
That's right Mark. Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Son of God – just like the scriptures state. Is the son of the King also the King? Is the son of the President also the President? Is the son of Mark also Mark? Is your son the same being as you are Mark? When in the history of the world has a Father and a Son ever been the same being Mark? These are just some of the logical questions that trinitarians must turn a blind eye to.And yes, John says the Jews thought Jesus was making himself equal to God by claiming to be His Son. And by Jewish standards, a son received much of the respect and honor due his father – just because he was his father's son. But consider three things here:
1. When the Jews claimed that Jesus was making himself equal to God, how did he answer them? He said that God Himself had called human beings gods, and pointed out that he never said he was God, but His Son.
2. The Jews also said these words to Jesus: “The only Father we have is God.” Were these Jews therefore making themselves “equal to God”? Curious, huh?
3. And finally, even though Hebrew culture bestowed some of a father's honor on his son, they were never exactly equal, nor were they ever the same exact being. So even as these Jews claimed that Jesus was making himself equal TO God, they knew that also meant he was NOT God Himself. They understood him to be saying exactly what he was saying – that he was God's SON, not God Himself. By saying that Jesus was making himself “equal TO God”, they were at the same time acknowledging that Jesus was NOT God, but His Son. Do you understand this Mark?Mark:
Quote Joseph wasn't his Father, God was, and that makes him equal to God in power and authority.
Just like your son is equal in power and authority with you? Just like the President's son is also POTUS? And if Jesus already had God's power and authority from the start, why then did he say his God had given him all power and authority after he accomplished his mission. And can God DIE at the hands of mere human beings? See Mark, there are many, many flaws in the trinity doctrine.Mark:
Quote How can Jesus be with us until the end of the world and be in heaven at the same time at the Fathers right hand? The answer to me is simple-by the power of the holy spirit-the sprit he promised after he rose from the dead.
Follow the logic here Mark. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Right? So what you're really saying is that God said God would send God as a helper. It's beyond logic. And I can be with you in thought and spirit until the day I die Mark. That doesn't mean I'm physically in your presence 24/7 does it?No Mark, it's best to stick with what the scriptures teach. Hit me with your best trinity “proof scripture” and I'll easily refute your understanding of it using scripture. Then I'll hit you with one and see if you can refute it.
Here, I'll start:
Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.No one has seen God at any time, right Mark? After all, that's what the scriptures say many times. And that would explain why Stephen could only see “the glory of God”, but not God Himself, right? Hmmmmmmmm…………why was he able to see the risen Jesus then? And who was it again that Jesus was at the right hand of? Oh yeah, God. Jesus wasn't “GOD”, but was at the right hand of Him. And where was the Holy Spirit in Stephen's vision of the heavenly throne?
Refute away if you dare – for I have many, many more of them.
peace and love to you and yours Mark,
mike
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