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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,13:49) Mike,
You confuse civil worship with religious worship, what was done to Jesus was religious worship.
So now you're just going to make up words? Did God distinguish between “civil worship” and “religious worship”?God said to only worship Him.'
Jesus said to only worship Jehovah your God.
Good enough for me.
mike
Quote (OneDay @ Nov. 16 2010,14:23) Cain and Abel both worshipped God, but Cain's sacrifice was rejected because he was unrighteous. Nadab and Abihu offered incense, but God destroyed them: “Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD” (Leviticus 10:1,2).
Satan tried to persuade Christ to bow before him. He did not say: “Don't worship God.” He said: “Worship me.” Jesus replied: “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve'” (Luke 4:5-8). Satan's trick did not work with Christ as it does with so many.
~JO~
Right on Jo.And welcome.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,16:46) There are vast examples of the Messiah receiving worship
There are no instances in the whole of scripture where Jesus is worshipped.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2010,20:45) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,16:46) There are vast examples of the Messiah receiving worship
There are no instances in the whole of scripture where Jesus is worshipped.mike
Mikewhat intense feelings Kathi has, not to want to obey Christ and God s words.
i is amazing it is an obsession,i wander what make her do that??
it is not the truth that s for sure, God can not go against is own words.
Pierre
Keith:
Quote The problem you have is Mark says they both “bowed down” and “worshipped him”!
So then in the account of David, when the LXX says “bowed down” and “proskuneo'd”, the word “proskuneo” MUST mean “God-Worship”, huh?
Keith:
Quote Jews did not recognize their Caesar as their King.
John 19
12 From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”15“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.
Keith:
Quote So when Jesus was called “Son of God,” it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title “Son of God” as high blasphemy.”
John 8:41
You are doing the works of your own father.” “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”These Jews must have also been equal to God, huh?
Keith:
Quote The problem you have is Mark says they both “bowed down” and “worshipped him”! How is it that you think Matthew erases Marks account?
Mark uses three words to relate bowing down in mock obeisance to a KING, not a GOD. He uses “tithemi gonu proskuneo”. Matthew, on the other hand, describes the same event using one word which means the same as the three Mark used. He used “gonupeteo”, which means “to fall on the knees, the act of imploring aid, and of expressing reverence and honour”.Keith, this is senseless to me and a waste of time. It all boils down to this one question.
DO YOU KNOW OF ANY INSTANCE IN THE OT OR THE NT WHERE PROSKUNEO WAS USED, NOT FOR GOD-WORSHIP, BUT FOR THE PAYING OF REVERENCE TO SOMEONE OTHER THAN GOD?
The answer is YES, as you well know. And that very clearly means that proskuneo didn't ALWAYS mean God-Worship. And if it didn't ALWAYS mean God-Worship, then it is just your imagination that leads you to believe it HAD to mean God-Worship in reference to Jesus.
I'm busy with other topics right now. Maybe later I'll have time to discuss Philadelphia and Cornelius. But frankly, I don't see the point. It doesn't matter whether you insist that those occasions are God-Worship too, because you KNOW that David wasn't God-Worshipped, and that means proskuneo didn't always mean God-Worship. End of story.
Later,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 17 2010,14:15) Mike what intense feelings Kathi has, not to want to obey Christ and God s words.
i is amazing it is an obsession,i wander what make her do that??
it is not the truth that s for sure, God can not go against is own words.
Pierre
I know Pierre. And she thinks she is serving God and His Son BETTER by worshipping two as “God” – against many scriptures. What was it that Jo just posted?JO:
Quote Nadab and Abihu offered incense, but God destroyed them: “Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD” (Leviticus 10:1,2). Kathi, can you see how God reacts to people going against His commands – even if their intentions are good? What about poor Uzzah, who died for trying to stabilize the ark?
Hey Pierre, I think I'm going to like this JO person.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 17 2010,12:57) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2010,19:50) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 17 2010,11:03) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2010,17:55) Hi: Also, if that was Hebrew culture, for the eldest son to be considered equal with the Father, then maybe that is what is meant by Phillipians in the following scripture:
Quote Phil 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyi think that it is more Jesus being spiritual with the people being carnal,and not understanding anything,
and so make up what the want ,so they can kill him.Pierre
Hi Pierre:I thought that the Pharisees had misunderstood him when they stated that he was saying that he was equal with God because he said that He was the Son of God, but it may be that they thought this because of their culture, but no, he made it clear that he was not equal with God, and in Phillipians 2 he was in the form of God as God's Christ, but the scripture states that he rather took on the form of a servant, and became obedient even unto death on the cross.
Phillipians 2:6 is a verse which is most often used to support Pre-existence which I believe is a misunderstanding of scripture.
Anyway, I am still studying and trying to gain understanding, and if I am wrong in any thing that I teach, I want to be corrected.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martydo not mix what Jesus says and what Paul said,
look wen Jesus says he was the son of God,was it not written in the book of Geneses that Adam was the son of God?he was a man.
they had become so carnal that they only cared about themself,and were blinded to any spiritual knowledge.
Pierre
Hi Pierre:I am not confusing the two. Jesus was a man of that there is no doubt. The scriptures make that quite clear, and Adam was a son of God, but not “the only begotten Son of the Living God”. Jesus is unique in this. There is no other.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2010,21:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,13:49) Mike,
You confuse civil worship with religious worship, what was done to Jesus was religious worship.
So now you're just going to make up words? Did God distinguish between “civil worship” and “religious worship”?God said to only worship Him.'
Jesus said to only worship Jehovah your God.
Good enough for me.
mike
Mike you distinguish between them all the time and call one obeisance, the civil one. You always claim that Jesus is receiving the civil kind like that given to kings.Maybe I should have used the Greek word…
You confuse civil proskuneo-ing with religious proskuneo-ing.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2010,21:45) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,16:46) There are vast examples of the Messiah receiving worship
There are no instances in the whole of scripture where Jesus is worshipped.mike
Mike,
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…that is religious proskuneo-ing no matter how you translate it and is wrong if given to a mighty god that is not the true mighty God.You will have to answer for your denial of this, Mike. Also, your denial of all the scriptures where Jesus is receiving religious proskuneo-ing after a miracle was performed and He commends their faith.
You don't have faith to worship the Son as the Son of God, I do, the disciples did, many followers of Christ do also. This takes faith and maybe you too will receive that and understand.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2010,22:25) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 17 2010,14:15) Mike what intense feelings Kathi has, not to want to obey Christ and God s words.
i is amazing it is an obsession,i wander what make her do that??
it is not the truth that s for sure, God can not go against is own words.
Pierre
I know Pierre. And she thinks she is serving God and His Son BETTER by worshipping two as “God” – against many scriptures. What was it that Jo just posted?JO:
Quote Nadab and Abihu offered incense, but God destroyed them: “Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD” (Leviticus 10:1,2). Kathi, can you see how God reacts to people going against His commands – even if their intentions are good? What about poor Uzzah, who died for trying to stabilize the ark?
Hey Pierre, I think I'm going to like this JO person.
peace and love,
mike
I believe those who worship the Father and the Son will be reckoned to them as righteousness and having great faith. You don't have this faith yet, that's all, most here don't…most in church do.Pray that the Lord increases your faith to understand.
Mike or Pierre,
Show me one scripture where someone worshipped Jesus and God, the Father got mad at them and punished them. Show me one prophecy where this was to happen and make sure that Jesus/the Son of God/the Messiah is specifically identified. Or, stop all the hot air and accusations.Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 16 2010,15:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,07:24) Ted,
What you call 'apparition' the early church father's called a theophany.Theophany: an appearance of God in visible form, temporary and not necessarily material. Such an appearance is to be contrasted with the Incarnation, in which there was a permanent union between God and complete manhood (body, soul , and spirit) (Cross, The Oxford Dictionary Of The Christian Church).
Do you think that the Word of God had a distinct mind from the Father?
http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/religion/students/glossary.html
Kathi….. The word of God is an intricate part of the God being….just as our voice is a function of our being and a means to communicate….
Hi Ted,
Do you think that the Word was an animate part of the Eternal or inanimate part? Do you worship the Father and the Son?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2010,15:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2010,16:30) Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:05) Quote AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. If another person who knows better, misapplies this scripture again, my head is going to explode.
David,
Don't explode, seek to understand:John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Leviticus 24:16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.
David it is as if you do not want to try to understand this:
“In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges–and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called “Son of God,” it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title “Son of God” as high blasphemy.”
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sonship.htm
Can you disprove what is italicized?
I wonder what happened to David? This is an excellent point Kathi!“In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges–and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called “Son of God,” it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title “Son of God” as high blasphemy.” Source
WJ
Thanks Keith,
I don't know where David goes but when he goes it seems like he has been stumped and then disappears.This info should stop most here in their tracks. No one has attempted to test it to history to see if it is true. It does appear like that is what the culture thought back then.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,22:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2010,22:25) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 17 2010,14:15) Mike what intense feelings Kathi has, not to want to obey Christ and God s words.
i is amazing it is an obsession,i wander what make her do that??
it is not the truth that s for sure, God can not go against is own words.
Pierre
I know Pierre. And she thinks she is serving God and His Son BETTER by worshipping two as “God” – against many scriptures. What was it that Jo just posted?JO:
Quote Nadab and Abihu offered incense, but God destroyed them: “Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD” (Leviticus 10:1,2). Kathi, can you see how God reacts to people going against His commands – even if their intentions are good? What about poor Uzzah, who died for trying to stabilize the ark?
Hey Pierre, I think I'm going to like this JO person.
peace and love,
mike
I believe those who worship the Father and the Son will be reckoned to them as righteousness and having great faith. You don't have this faith yet, that's all, most here don't…most in church do.Pray that the Lord increases your faith to understand.
Kathithis is some history,;;1Ki 11:5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.
1Ki 11:6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD? he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.
1Ki 11:7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.
1Ki 11:8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.
1Ki 11:9 The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice.
1Ki 11:10 Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD'S command.
1Ki 11:11 So the LORD said to Solomon, “Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates.2Ki 23:8 Josiah brought all the priests from the towns of Judah and desecrated the high places, from Geba to Beersheba, where the priests had burned incense. He broke down the shrines at the gates—at the entrance to the Gate of Joshua, the city governor, which is on the left of the city gate.
2Ki 23:9 Although the priests of the high places did not serve at the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, they ate unleavened bread with their fellow priests.
2Ki 23:10 He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire to Molech.
2Ki 23:11 He removed from the entrance to the temple of the LORD the horses that the kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun. They were in the court near the room of an official named Nathan-Melech. Josiah then burned the chariots dedicated to the sun.what about the apostles time you think because the chuch today does it it is good??
1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1Jn 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
1Jn 5:15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
1Jn 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
1Jn 5:21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.1Jn 5:9 We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
1Jn 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son3Jn 1:8 We ought therefore to show hospitality to such men so that we may work together for the truth.
3Jn 1:9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us.
3Jn 1:10 So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
3Jn 1:11 Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.the word of God is testifying to the truth of God and so that becomes our guide.not men,
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,15:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2010,22:25) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 17 2010,14:15) Mike what intense feelings Kathi has, not to want to obey Christ and God s words.
i is amazing it is an obsession,i wander what make her do that??
it is not the truth that s for sure, God can not go against is own words.
Pierre
I know Pierre. And she thinks she is serving God and His Son BETTER by worshipping two as “God” – against many scriptures. What was it that Jo just posted?JO:
Quote Nadab and Abihu offered incense, but God destroyed them: “Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD” (Leviticus 10:1,2). Kathi, can you see how God reacts to people going against His commands – even if their intentions are good? What about poor Uzzah, who died for trying to stabilize the ark?
Hey Pierre, I think I'm going to like this JO person.
peace and love,
mike
I believe those who worship the Father and the Son will be reckoned to them as righteousness and having great faith. You don't have this faith yet, that's all, most here don't…most in church do.Pray that the Lord increases your faith to understand.
Kathi! You got to be kidding me, most Churches do? I don't think so. Most Churches believe in the trinity,. That is man a mad doctrine and not of God. Just like the doctrine that mkost have i those Churches that sing and worship Jesus. There are enough Scriptures that say not to do that. Yet you find it right to do? You have fallen prey to those Churches, unfortunately….Now you even think it is OK????No my friend it is not….And I don't care what any men will say. I don't care what any fore Fathers did….Scriptures say not to…..That is what counts and not any man.Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
Take heed, and do not follow men, but God….
.Peace Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,22:14) Mike or Pierre,
Show me one scripture where someone worshipped Jesus and God, the Father got mad at them and punished them. Show me one prophecy where this was to happen and make sure that Jesus/the Son of God/the Messiah is specifically identified. Or, stop all the hot air and accusations.
Kathihow could anyone give you a scripture were Jesus and God is worship ,there is none ,no one would do that, period.
this is why you do not have any scripture to that affect.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2010,12:15) Hi Mark, No I do not worship Jesus. And you have very adeptly pointed out to Kathi that if she doesn't think Jesus is God Almighty, then she worships him against what the scriptures teach.
I've got a better translation of John 1:1 for you:
John 1:1 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.If you would like to discuss it further, check out the John 1:1-3 thread.
peace and love,
mike
“no i do not worship Jesus“You will one day. Every knee will bow and tounge confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Peace
Marty,
You posted a scripture where the angels worshiped Jesus. I don't believe I ever got your response to my question. Do you worship Jesus? Peace-Mark
Also, much ado is being made on splitting words and interpretations on worship, weather bowing or homage or civil etc etc. That was covered by God himself. Exodus 20 v3 You shall not have other Gods besides me.You shall not carve idols………..V5 YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN BEFORE THEM OR WORSHIP THEM. FOR I THE LORD, YOUR GOD, AM A JELIOUS GOD He doesn't separate bowing down from worship as far as his singular authority.
<>
New International Version (©1984)
Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
New Living Translation (©2007)
“Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus.English Standard Version (©2001)
He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.International Standard Version (©2008)
He said, “Lord, I do believe,” and worshiped him.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The man bowed in front of Jesus and said, “I believe, Lord.”King James Bible
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.American King James Version
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.American Standard Version
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.Bible in Basic English
And he said, Lord, I have faith. And he gave him worship.Douay-Rheims Bible
And he said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored him.Darby Bible Translation
And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage.English Revised Version
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.Webster's Bible Translation
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him.Weymouth New Testament
“I believe, Sir,” he said. And he threw himself at His feet.World English Bible
He said, “Lord, I believe!” and he worshiped him.Young's Literal Translation
and he said, 'I believe, sir,' and bowed before him.Ya'll can twist all you want. It sounds like the run around I get when I ask a baptist why they don't say the lord's prayer or ask a priest why they are called father. The reasons sound good, but they don't hold water. Peace- Mark
Isaiah 9:6 >>
New International Version (©1984)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.English Standard Version (©2001)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.American King James Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Bible in Basic English
For to us a child has come, to us a son is given; and the government has been placed in his hands; and he has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince of Peace.Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ùGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.English Revised Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Webster's Bible Translation
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.World English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.Isaiah knew. Was he lying? Is his prophecy wrong? Can you spin this?
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