Worship God the Father only?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:36)

John didn't say that they were wrong did he?

Yes. And so did Jesus right when it happened.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:39)

And why did you stop the scripture at verse 33?  The rest of the passage contains Jesus' explanation to them about how he is NOT God: 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Apparently Jesus wasn't hip to the “Son of God = God Himself” thinking, huh?  And he went right into distiguishing himself from God. A half truth is a lie, right Keith? mike

Just how do you get that?

Jesus took claim to the Fathers works as being his!

Do not believe me unless “I” DO THE WORKS OF MY FATHER. 38 “But if I do them“, even though you do not believe me, “believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

The clear claim above is Jesus is saying again he and the Father are one. The works and his claim as being one is clearly a picture of equality!

Please show me in the scriptures any Apostle taking credit for the works of God as being works “They did”? Or did they Give Jesus the Glory and credit?

This is why they “Worshipped him”.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:52)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:48) HAHAHA! Mike knows more about what the Jews meant 2000 years ago than the Jews themselves including John and many of the early forefathers! We all know more than those particular Jews knew at the time, don't we Keith?  And what's one of the things we know?  That some of us will be one with them, right?  Will those of us that are “one with them” also be God Keith? mike

Mike

So we know more than John who told us what Jesus words meant? Are we one with the Father like Jesus was?

If so how is he the “Only Begotten Son”?

Jesus said “we would be one” as “he and the Father are One” not that we would be one with the Father like Jesus is.

Since when do we claim to see  “WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES” and do it?

Since when do we claim Gods people as our own?

Since when will Gods people be in our hands?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:52)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:36) John didn't say that they were wrong did he? Yes.  And so did Jesus right when it happened. mike

Wrong!

[Lightenup]

Oh Keith is back, hi Keith! I hope your direction is becoming clearer.

Anyway, I see that you are discussing a couple of things here.
The reason that the Pharisees think that Jesus is making Himself out to be God is because His Father is God and like beget like. They didn't think that He was making Himself out to be the Father but one of the same kind as the Father, imo.

You have also been discussing Jesus' question, “Why do you call me good?” I think that during His discussions with people, He is always looking for evidence or lack of faith. Remember when He was talking to the lady that said that even the dogs get to eat the crumbs on the floor? Well, He recognized faith in her and then healed her daughter. Do you remember when He asked Peter who he thought that He was? When Peter said that He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Jesus recognized faith. Well, I think that it is the same with the guy that Jesus asked, “Why do you call me good?” He was looking for faith but Jesus didn't get the answer that revealed faith. Jesus was not developing a teaching that He was not God or good, but testing the rich young guy talking to Him. That is how I see it anyway.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:42) Mike Do you expect to get a different answer? Rev 3:9 – They were worshipping God before their feet. Acts 10:25 – Peter believed it was God worship that is why he corrected them. Did you miss this post… “Mike Did not Peter correct him for his “Worship”? Yep thats right Mike, Peter saw Cornelius act as one of “Worship” (proskyneō), didn't he?   But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. Acts 10:26 Why didn't Jesus do this? WJ” Yes, I'm sorry.  I did miss the post. Are you for real about Rev 3:9?   7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:   These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Show me where God is being worshipped here. And as far as Acts, you want us to believe that Cornelius, who had a vision in which he saw an angel of God tell him to send for the man Peter, then thought Peter was God Himself? Wow!  More later on that one, please explain Rev 3 for now. mike

Mike

What did Peter mean when he said…

But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; “I MYSELF ALSO AM A MAN“. Acts 10:26

Why do you deny that Peter corrected him and Jesus didn't?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2010,23:05)

Oh Keith is back, hi Keith!  I hope your direction is becoming clearer.

Thanks Kathi

Yes I have clearer direction! But still need prayer!

WJ

[Lightenup]

Keith,
Well, I have been praying for you and your family and will continue to do so. What is the saying, “When life gives us lemons…make lemonade” or something like that. You may be joyfully surprised what God has in store for you through this. Keep the hope

[david]

Keith, where did you go? and what is this direction you seek?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,02:55)

Hi SimplyForgiven… The way I see it, everything is spiritually discerned, what the words mean, weather bow down to or worship, the words can have different meaning to different people. My mother says she worships Jesus, and she does, maybe not by dictionary definition, but by spiritual terms she does worship Jesus, she sings to Jesus, she plays music to Jesus, she prays to Jesus, all of this is worship. Have you ever seen sun worshippers, they dance and play music, hold hands and chant etc. As iv said though, and as i have said to her, where is the Father in all of this ? Do you really think the son wanted people to forget the Father ?  What DID Jesus say ? Worship ONLY God. “You shall have no other God's BEFORE ME” so to me that means, God is first, Jesus is after, All love and prayer is to the Father, The number one command as spoken by Jesus…Love the LORD your God with all your heart and mind and soul and strength…And love your neighbour as yourself…Any mention of Jesus there at all ? Jesus was called Teacher. So I obey the Teacher. And believe me Jesus wont be returning quietly and kindly, it will be quite a sight, the only ones remaining will be those who are loved by the Father. Those who obeyed the son. According to scripture.

Shimmer thats in excuse.

You should cast away opinion and ask God directly in a non-biased manner.  IF we claim to believe what the scriptures state, than we should be able to have the revelation from the Spirit of truth himself.
Should it matter what different people think?
So with the proof i showed you, now everything is based that “well everyone thinks differently, oh well we have to love everyone”
I believe thats an excuse.   There must be TRUTH, there must be one ABOSULUTE truth, and i know that Our God is not a God of confusion.

If you want to obey what Jesus said than we must DENY ourselves and what we think, and what we beleive, and deny our mind, and everything about ourselves and Follow Jesus.
Thats what he said as well.
Pick up our cross and follow him.

I see Jesus more than just a rabbi, My gosh
He isnt someone who just helped us along the way and tuaght us some basic principles to live by,
NO, just like he said to the diciples to “folllow him”
we must do the same, to follow him in our daily lives,
to have a relationship with Him, because we neeed him! he is the WAY, the TRUTH and THE LIFE, no one can go to the father without the son.

Jesus said to Peter, if we LOVE HIM, who? Jesus!, we must feed his sheep.
WE cant love the Father, without Jesus, we cant deny the father and accpet Jesus, neither one is ever seperated.
There is no picking one over another!
always in unison!

Im not scolding you, im just want you to realize that we cant settle for this excuse that “well everyone has a different understanding of words”
God said he willl perserve his WORD not the english language, nor the greek language nor the hebrew.
His WORD continues to be without contamination becuase he is the AUTHOR of it!
I believe without a doubt that there is an abosulute truth to all these matters.

Why settle for what we “think”
I hate the way i “think”, i dont trust my mind, nor my heart.
But I Trust God! because when my mind fails me and my heart betrays me, God will never fail me!

So Ask him, and deny yourself
You really want spirital discernment like you cliam, than ask Him. Because Jesus Christ was all about the Spirit, for he moved in Faith, and in Love, and ending confusion, Spreading truth and gave hope the the hopeless and liberty for the captive.

[david]

Quote

In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely. The burden of proof is on the gainsayers. The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT. Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?

I'll give you a couple, if you want. But I've already done this WJ.

MATTHEW 18:26. What is being done here is certainly not worship, but rather, a prostrating or bowing down to a king. And the word is “proskyneo.”
So the above is an example that i believe fits what you requested.

Here is another example that, although it doesn't show the honor (instead of worship) but rather it shows a “bowing down” as the word “proskyneo” basically means.
MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION. They are not worshipping him. They are mockingly bowing down. Again, the word “proskyneo” DOES NOT ALWAYS DENOTE WORSHIP!!!!!

You cannot argue that it does.

[david]

Quote

Why did Jesus use the word in describing “True Worship” (proskyneō) to God and not rebuke those who worshipped (proskyneō) him?

BECAUSE, WJ, as has been demonstrated simply by looking at my last post and as you yourself well know and understand:

PROSKYNEO CAN MEAN MORE THAN ONE THING.

I think we know and understand that words in English often have more than one exact precise meaning. So too with proskyneo.

What those who spat on Jesus were doing (proskyneo) to Jesus was different than what Jesus tells us to do to God (proskyneo)
Or can you possibly disagree with that?

So, in answer to your question: Because they weren't “worshipping” him. They were proskyneo ing him. (Don't you love how we are now using words like “proskyneo ed” and “proskyneoing.”)

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,04:43)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 02 2010,11:24) shimmer, im at work but I wil do my best to respond the point is what did jesus think about what the greek word being used? which is why he responded with OT scripture. how did he see it? thats what I care about how Jesus thought of the word. the apostle john worshiped a angel TWICE even after everything he went though. isnt jesus more than the angels? SimplyForgiven, Jesus would have seen the word worship as something spiritual, and also as the Jews saw the word, and as I have shown, they have a different idea on what worship is of things other than God. It is not for us to decide to worship Jesus or not but only for us to obey what He said. And He never said that. He said 'Why do you call me good ? There is none good but God' So do we believe what Jesus said or do we believe what our own minds tell us?..or what other people do, Jesus said… `  true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him; God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.' The woman saith to him, `I have known that Messiah doth come, who is called Christ, when that one may come, he will tell us all things;' Jesus saith to her, `I am [he], who am speaking to thee.' Here He says true worshippers will worship THE FATHER, He also identifies Himself as the Messiah, The Christ, not as the Father in which He just finished saying will be worshipped in spirit and truth.

Shimmer,
I want to remind you that Im the type that you either refute my points or you leave them valid.

Here is the point that your claiming “well everyone believse differently abotu what worship means”
isnt that serving your baised opnion?

I have no such opnion, im stating facts about what JESUS THOUGHT!
You see the difference?
Your misinterpreting the Scriptures, everything good comes from God, so it Jesus claiming not to be good? we know he was PERFECT, the PERFECT scrafice for ALL our sins.

So its either he was trying to make a point, or its a contradiction.

This is what bothers me, your telling me that we should believe what Jesus Said. I have showed you what Jesus said yet you still dont believe.  im not serving what I “think”, but what scritpure clearly states.

I showed you proof that the Devil used the greek word “proskyneō” for worship, and how do we know that?
because the way Jesus responsed by using the OT scripture to specify that we must only worship GOD.

1.My only point is to prove that “proskyneō” means worship according to Jesus.
2. and ALSO to John, who worshipped in Angel, yet you ignored this as well.

Also not only that but the Woman realized that the “truth” comes from the Messiah! so how can one worship GOD without THE TRUTH, nor the SPIRIT that we receive THROUGHT CHRIST.

[david]

Quote

I am back but still dealing with something in my life very troubling and hard, so don’t expect much posting but I felt I had to jump in here since my name is “WorshippingJesus”.

Is it too personal to ask what you are dealing with Keith, and secondly, do you think your name would be more accurate if it was:
“Proskyneo(ing) Jesus”?
At least that's something no one can disagree with.

[david]

Quote

So if Jesus said to the man that “no one” is good but one “GOD” and then says he was “Good” then that is proof that he is claiming equality with God once again.

And what of others who are called “good”?
And what of the fact that Jehovah is “alone wise”? Yet, others are called “wise”
Perhaps, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, no one is wise or good COMPARED TO JEHOVAH.

[david]

Quote

We are not dealing with its use in the OT. We are dealing with Jesus use of the word in John 4 and the NT use of the word.

Well that's very convenient and also unbiblical in approach. Yes, let's avoid Biblical evidence that doesn't support our thesis.
If “all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching…for SETTING THINGS STRAIGHT” why close our eyes to portions of the Bible?

[david]

Quote

Now please show us where the NT use of the word does not mean “Worship” but a bowing down with respect!

wj, you mention this a couple times as though it is your whole argument or at least, extremely important to your argument.

In Matthew 18:26, Jesus was giving an illustration of a king. He used the word proskyneo with reference to what others did to this king. Do you believe there is any indication Jesus was referring to this king being worshiped?

And the other example I already gave, which you simply can't dispute, is where they are spitting on Jesus and mocking him and proskyneo (ing) him. That's right. “proskyneo(ing)” Jesus. Obviously, logically, it was a mock bowing and not worship that was being rendered to Jesus.
These ones who were basically torturing Jesus were not worshiping him.

WJ, you can now stop asking this question.

[david]

Quote

Where is the use of the word as just a bowing down?

–WJ

WJ, SEE POSTS ABOVE.

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,13:37)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 01 2010,21:33) Hi all, I only have a moment spare but..When Jesus said “Why do you call me good ? There is none good but God” if you think spiritually instead of useing the words only, Jesus was humbling himself. How often do you humble yourself enough to say “Im not good, why call me good ?” Jesus therefore was showing where he was in position to the Father who was and is higher than him, and that none is good except for God. BUT Jesus was the only man worthy to open the scroll “Weep not for behold the Lion from the tribe of Judah, He has overcome” so though He humbled himself, He overcame the world. Shimmer Does this mean that Jesus was Good? If so your explanation doesn't match Jesus words. WJ

WJ, your argument about what Jesus said is a really sad little argument.

Jesus himself said he was good. (Mat 20:15)
Others are said to be good. (They are mostly in Jesus illustrations where a “good man” or good men are mentioned.)

Therefore, like in other instances, we are speaking in relative terms: COMPARED TO JEHOVAH, WHO CAN BE CALLED GOOD?

[david]

Quote

Mike Again you create a fallacy and a strawman because why would the Pharisees stone someone for being worshipped.

Yes Mike. Everyone knows the Pharisees where upright and fair chaps who would never kill anyone that didn't deserve to be killed. Wait, that doesn't sound right. Didn't they conduct a mock trial for Jesus? (I'm not here arguing that they stoned Jesus for being worshiped or not worshiped. I'm just saying: Don't hold the Pharisees up as any example in doing the right thing.)

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