Worship God the Father only?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,13:51)

Sorry Mike I just blew a big hole in one of your so-called air tight theories!

Okay Mr “Airtight”.

Answer to the two scriptures for now. I've got no time for this “the Pharisees were alright with Jesus being worshipped as God” stuff. I'll research it. Maybe I'll come up with King Josiah killing all the other god's preists……..or something along that lines.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,20:46)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,21:40) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,13:33) Hi all, I only have a moment spare but..When Jesus said “Why do you call me good ? There is none good but God” if you think spiritually instead of useing the words only, Jesus was humbling himself. How often do you humble yourself enough to say “Im not good, why call me good ?” Jesus therefore was showing where he was in position to the Father who was and is higher than him, and that none is good except for God. BUT Jesus was the only man worthy to open the scroll “Weep not for behold the Lion from the tribe of Judah, He has overcome” so though He humbled himself, He overcame the world. You have it correct Shimmer.  That's exactly the point Jesus was making, and it fits right in with all the other things he said to point all praise to God.  “I only speak what the Father has taught me”, “the Father is greater than I/all”, “I go to your God and my God”, “I can do nothing on my own”, etc, etc, etc.  There are many of them. mike Okay! Was Jesus humbling himself when he said that he is the “Good Shepherd” and that no man can pluck “HIS SHEEP” out of “HIS HAND” and that what he “SEES THE FATHER DO THAT HE ALSO DOES” and when he said “NO MAN CAN TAKE HIS LIFE FROM HIM BUT THAT HE HAD THE POWER TO BOTH LAY IT DOWN AND TO TAKE IT AGAIN”?“ AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. Hello people, this is no ordinary man. But in fact he claims equality with God. WJ

WJ

this is the man you never could understand,and still do not.

if you would know that Christ came to serve not to be served,
he also teach his diciple how to act between themself,

Mk 10:43 Don’t be like that. Instead, anyone who wants to be important among you must be your servant.
Mk 10:44 And anyone who wants to be first must be the slave of everyone

this is the meaning of being the first ,only Christ could be first.
here is the meaning of being the last ;1Co 15:28 When he has done that, the Son also will be under God’s rule. God puts everything under the Son. In that way, God will be all in all.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,13:51) Sorry Mike I just blew a big hole in one of your so-called air tight theories! Okay Mr “Airtight”.       Answer to the two scriptures for now.  I've got no time for this “the Pharisees were alright with Jesus being worshipped as God” stuff.  I'll research it.  Maybe I'll come up with King Josiah killing all the other god's preists……..or something along that lines. mike

Mike

I never said the Pharisees were alright with it.

I said they could not blame him for “their actions“.

But they could blame him for claiming he was equal to God by saying “God was his personal Father” and that he was “One with him”. So they went after his claims to equality with the Father. You should listen to Johns commentary Mike for he says…

Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him“, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18  

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2010,22:08)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,20:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,21:40) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,13:33) Hi all, I only have a moment spare but..When Jesus said “Why do you call me good ? There is none good but God” if you think spiritually instead of useing the words only, Jesus was humbling himself. How often do you humble yourself enough to say “Im not good, why call me good ?” Jesus therefore was showing where he was in position to the Father who was and is higher than him, and that none is good except for God. BUT Jesus was the only man worthy to open the scroll “Weep not for behold the Lion from the tribe of Judah, He has overcome” so though He humbled himself, He overcame the world. You have it correct Shimmer.  That's exactly the point Jesus was making, and it fits right in with all the other things he said to point all praise to God.  “I only speak what the Father has taught me”, “the Father is greater than I/all”, “I go to your God and my God”, “I can do nothing on my own”, etc, etc, etc.  There are many of them. mike Okay! Was Jesus humbling himself when he said that he is the “Good Shepherd” and that no man can pluck “HIS SHEEP” out of “HIS HAND” and that what he “SEES THE FATHER DO THAT HE ALSO DOES” and when he said “NO MAN CAN TAKE HIS LIFE FROM HIM BUT THAT HE HAD THE POWER TO BOTH LAY IT DOWN AND TO TAKE IT AGAIN”?“ AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. Hello people, this is no ordinary man. But in fact he claims equality with God. WJ WJ this is the man you never could understand,and still do not. if you would know that Christ came to serve not to be served, he also teach his diciple how to act  between themself, Mk 10:43 Don’t be like that. Instead, anyone who wants to be important among you must be your servant. Mk 10:44 And anyone who wants to be first must be the slave of everyone this is the meaning of being the first ,only Christ could be first. here is the meaning of being the last ;1Co 15:28 When he has done that, the Son also will be under God’s rule. God puts everything under the Son. In that way, God will be all in all. Pierre

How does your words negate Jesus claim to equality?

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:09)

But they could blame him for claiming he was equal to God by saying “God was his personal Father” and that he was “One with him”. So they went after his claims to equality with the Father. You should listen to Johns commentary Mike for he says… Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18

First of all, those same Jews told Jesus, “The only Father we have is God”. Were they also guilty of making themselves equal to God?

Second, you do know that John was telling us what THEY were charging against Jesus, not what he personally thought, right?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:09)

Mike I never said the Pharisees were alright with it. I said they could not blame him for “their actions”. But they could blame him for claiming he was equal to God

Do you hear yourself Keith?

You actually believe that Jesus saying he was God's Son was MORE offensive to them than him being worshipped as if he WAS GOD HIMSELF right in front of them?

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,20:59)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2010,21:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,20:38) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2010,21:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,19:53) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2010,20:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,19:11) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 01 2010,18:43) It is not for us to decide to worship Jesus or not but only for us to obey what He said. And He never said that. He said 'Why do you call me good ? There is none good but God' So do we believe what Jesus said or do we believe what our own minds tell us?..or what other people do, Shimmer Do you believe in Jesus statement he is saying “he is not good” or was he prodding the man as to why he called him good? Jesus also said… I am the “GOOD SHEPHERD “, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. John 10:14 So if Jesus said to the man that “no one” is good but one “GOD” and then says he was “Good” then that is proof that he is claiming equality with God once again. Read John Ch 10 in its context Jesus is claiming his hands as being equal to the Fathers hands, and that his works are equal to the Fathers works. This is why they took up stones to kill him. Yes we do worship the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit in Spirit and in truth for they are ONE. John 10:30 WJ WJ Jesus really says that he is the “true” SHEPHERD” Hi Everyone! Pierre infers Jesus is not good! But Jesus says… I am the “GOOD SHEPHERD “, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. John 10:14 The text does not say “true shepherd” though we know Jesus is “true”. So who shall we believe, Jesus or Pierre? Tell us Pierre, was Jesus Good or not? If he is then how do you explain your conundrum?   WJ WJ no, to your question,only one is good and it is God. Jesus did not came down to be good in his father s place, he came down to do his father s will , but you are not driven by the spirit how would you know, well come back anyway. Pierre So Jesus was not Good? So Jesus was a liar when he said he was the “Good Shepherd”? WJ WJ are you def ?? it means that he was the true shepherd, you are stuck on the word don't ye,WJ,you are not the only one, this is why you need the spirit of Christ to see the truth , what obviously you can not see,why,WORDS,WORDS,WORDS AND WORDS, this is why,tax collectors ,prostitutes ,ect will enter the kingdom in front of you. Lk 18:11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. Lk 18:13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner Lk 18:14 “I tell you, the tax collector went home accepted by God. But not the Pharisee. Lk 18:16 But Jesus asked the children to come to him. “Let the little children come to me,” he said. “Don’t keep them away. God’s kingdom belongs to people like them Pierre To bad you don't believe Jesus is the “Good Shepherd”. Jesus said he is the only way and if you try and go to God some other way you are a theif and a robber. Now ask yourself if God would have someone be our Savour who is not Good? Hello, who has the Holy Spirit of God here? WJ

WJ

what was the alegory for ,good shepherd and bad shepherd,is it ?

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:09) But they could blame him for claiming he was equal to God by saying “God was his personal Father” and that he was “One with him”. So they went after his claims to equality with the Father. You should listen to Johns commentary Mike for he says… Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD.John 5:18 First of all, those same Jews told Jesus, “The only Father we have is God”.  Were they also guilty of making themselves equal to God? Second, you do know that John was telling us what THEY were charging against Jesus, not what he personally thought, right? mike

Mike

Read it closely, it is Johns words that is commentating what Jesus meant!

Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,21:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 01 2010,22:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,20:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,21:40) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 02 2010,13:33) Hi all, I only have a moment spare but..When Jesus said “Why do you call me good ? There is none good but God” if you think spiritually instead of useing the words only, Jesus was humbling himself. How often do you humble yourself enough to say “Im not good, why call me good ?” Jesus therefore was showing where he was in position to the Father who was and is higher than him, and that none is good except for God. BUT Jesus was the only man worthy to open the scroll “Weep not for behold the Lion from the tribe of Judah, He has overcome” so though He humbled himself, He overcame the world. You have it correct Shimmer.  That's exactly the point Jesus was making, and it fits right in with all the other things he said to point all praise to God.  “I only speak what the Father has taught me”, “the Father is greater than I/all”, “I go to your God and my God”, “I can do nothing on my own”, etc, etc, etc.  There are many of them. mike Okay! Was Jesus humbling himself when he said that he is the “Good Shepherd” and that no man can pluck “HIS SHEEP” out of “HIS HAND” and that what he “SEES THE FATHER DO THAT HE ALSO DOES” and when he said “NO MAN CAN TAKE HIS LIFE FROM HIM BUT THAT HE HAD THE POWER TO BOTH LAY IT DOWN AND TO TAKE IT AGAIN”?“ AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. Hello people, this is no ordinary man. But in fact he claims equality with God. WJ WJ this is the man you never could understand,and still do not. if you would know that Christ came to serve not to be served, he also teach his diciple how to act  between themself, Mk 10:43 Don’t be like that. Instead, anyone who wants to be important among you must be your servant. Mk 10:44 And anyone who wants to be first must be the slave of everyone this is the meaning of being the first ,only Christ could be first. here is the meaning of being the last ;1Co 15:28 When he has done that, the Son also will be under God’s rule. God puts everything under the Son. In that way, God will be all in all. Pierre How does your words negate Jesus claim to equality? WJ

WJ

reading problems

1Co 15:28 the Son also will be under God’s rule.

see it,see it ,see it; THE SON ALSO WILL BE UNDER GOD'S RULE………………………………………………………….

pierre

[mikeboll64]

And the word most translations render as “equal” is “isos”. This is how Strong defines it:

2470. isos ee'-sos probably from 1492
(through the idea of seeming); similar (in amount and kind):–+ agree, as much, equal, like.

John surely knew that Jesus was not “equal” to God, for John directly quotes Jesus many time saying he was not.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:09) Mike I never said the Pharisees were alright with it. I said they could not blame him for “their actions”. But they could blame him for claiming he was equal to God Do you hear yourself Keith? You actually believe that Jesus saying he was God's Son was MORE offensive to them than him being worshipped as if he WAS GOD HIMSELF right in front of them? mike

Yes Mike

Listen to these words…

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that “GOD WAS HIS FATHER“, “making himself equal with God. John 5:18

And…

“I and my Father are one. “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, BEING A MAN, MAKEST THYSELF GOD”. John 10:30-33

So clear!

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:17)

Mike Read it closely, it is Johns words that is commentating what Jesus meant! Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18 WJ

And if I knew you didn't steal the car, but others thought you did, I could also say, “They're arresting Keith for stealing the car”.  It doesn't mean I agree with them, I'm just telling what THEY think you did and why you are being arrested.

What about Rev 3:9 and Acts 10:25?  Was it “God-Worship”?

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:21)

And the word most translations render as “equal” is “isos”.  This is how Strong defines it: 2470. isos ee'-sos probably from 1492 (through the idea of seeming); similar (in amount and kind):–+ agree, as much, equal, like. John surely knew that Jesus was not “equal” to God, for John directly quotes Jesus many time saying he was not. mike

Mike

Whats the difference? Why would they stone him for saying God was his Father if they didn't believe that meant he was claiming equality?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:21)

John surely knew that Jesus was not “equal” to God, for John directly quotes Jesus many time saying he was not.

So you say but that is not Johns own words is it? Remember it is John that wrote John 1:1-3 about this one who was with the Father and was God and by whom all things came through and without him nothing came into existence.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:17) Mike Read it closely, it is Johns words that is commentating what Jesus meant! Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18 WJ And if I knew you didn't steal the car, but others thought you did, I could also say, “They're arresting Keith for stealing the car”.  It doesn't mean I agree with them, I'm just telling what THEY think you did and why you are being arrested. What about Rev 3:9 and Acts 10:25?  Was it “God-Worship”? mike

Mike

Have it your way by sticking your head in the sand!

John didn't say that they were wrong did he?

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:26)

“I and my Father are one. “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, BEING A MA, MAKEST THYSELF GOD”. John 10:30-33

We can forgive the Jews their misunderstanding, because unlike us, they didn't have the benefit of Jesus explaining what he meant by “I and the Father are one”.  Unlike them, we later understand that he meant “one in purpose”, for his hope is for us to be one with them – and we will not be God.

But the Jews misunderstood it honestly, while you misunderstand it purposely.  

And why did you stop the scripture at verse 33?  The rest of the passage contains Jesus' explanation to them about how he is NOT God:

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Apparently Jesus wasn't hip to the “Son of God = God Himself” thinking, huh? And he went right into distiguishing himself from God.

A half truth is a lie, right Keith?

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:17) Mike Read it closely, it is Johns words that is commentating what Jesus meant! Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18 WJ And if I knew you didn't steal the car, but others thought you did, I could also say, “They're arresting Keith for stealing the car”.  It doesn't mean I agree with them, I'm just telling what THEY think you did and why you are being arrested. What about Rev 3:9 and Acts 10:25?  Was it “God-Worship”? mike

Mike

Do you expect to get a different answer?

Rev 3:9 – They were worshipping God before their feet.

Acts 10:25 – Peter believed it was God worship that is why he corrected them.

Did you miss this post…

“Mike

Did not Peter correct him for his “Worship”? Yep thats right Mike, Peter saw Cornelius act as one of “Worship” (proskyneō), didn't he?  

But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. Acts 10:26

Why didn't Jesus do this?

WJ“

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:34)

So you say but that is not Johns own words is it? Remember it is John that wrote John 1:1-3 about this one who was with the Father and was God and by whom all things came through and without him nothing came into existence.

Okay, enough. I've followed your diversions long enough for one night. I have refreshed the John 1:1-3 thread with some new info (at least to me). It's interesting, and I'll look for you there. But I'm not going to refute every “trinity proof text” in one night.

You implied there were no NT uses of “proskuneo” that didn't mean “God-worship”. I've showed you two. What do you have to say for yourself?

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:39)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:26) “I and my Father are one. “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, BEING A MA, MAKEST THYSELF GOD”. John 10:30-33 We can forgive the Jews their misunderstanding, because unlike us, they didn't have the benefit of Jesus explaining what he meant by “I and the Father are one”.  Unlike them, we later understand that he meant “one in purpose”, for his hope is for us to be one with them – and we will not be God.

HAHAHA!

Mike knows more about what the Jews meant 2000 years ago than the Jews themselves including John and many of the early forefathers!

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:42)

Mike Do you expect to get a different answer? Rev 3:9 – They were worshipping God before their feet. Acts 10:25 – Peter believed it was God worship that is why he corrected them. Did you miss this post… “Mike Did not Peter correct him for his “Worship”? Yep thats right Mike, Peter saw Cornelius act as one of “Worship” (proskyneō), didn't he? But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. Acts 10:26 Why didn't Jesus do this? WJ”

Yes, I'm sorry. I did miss the post.

Are you for real about Rev 3:9?

7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Show me where God is being worshipped here.

And as far as Acts, you want us to believe that Cornelius, who had a vision in which he saw an angel of God tell him to send for the man Peter, then thought Peter was God Himself?

Wow! More later on that one, please explain Rev 3 for now.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:48)

HAHAHA! Mike knows more about what the Jews meant 2000 years ago than the Jews themselves including John and many of the early forefathers!

We all know more than those particular Jews knew at the time, don't we Keith? And what's one of the things we know? That some of us will be one with them, right? Will those of us that are “one with them” also be God Keith?

mike

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