- This topic has 2,141 replies, 60 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2010,03:49) Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2010,01:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,16:45) Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, “It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' “Not one pen-stroke Kathi.
What people tend not to see about this verse, is that he said: “It is written.”
The quote was a quote from the Heb scriptures about “Jehovah,” the Father.
It was actually written to 'worship Jehovah your God and serve him only.'
They later substituted “Lord” much the way they did in the Heb scriptures, where God's name originally occured thousands of times.The point is: Jesus is clearly saying to obey the written command to “worship Jehovah.”
Jehovah IS one of the names of the SON as well as the Father.Gen 19:24
24 Then the Lord (Jehovah) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord (Jehovah) out of heaven,
NASU
So, LU, you are saying that Jesus was telling people to worship himself in this verse?I have a question. How would it have been a “temptation” to be offered so much in exchange for worship, if Jesus already possessed everything and was God himself?
The other thing is: You are simply wrong to say that “Jehovah” is another name for “Jesus.”
Christ or Messiah means “anointed one”? Who anointed him? Himself?
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 31 2010,08:56) hi mike it seems they all end up running away,into silence.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,I'm sure in this case, Kathi is just enjoying her weekend.
She doesn't run from anything………except the truth about who we are to worship. 
mike
Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2010,16:20) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2010,03:49) Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2010,01:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,16:45) Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, “It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' “Not one pen-stroke Kathi.
What people tend not to see about this verse, is that he said: “It is written.”
The quote was a quote from the Heb scriptures about “Jehovah,” the Father.
It was actually written to 'worship Jehovah your God and serve him only.'
They later substituted “Lord” much the way they did in the Heb scriptures, where God's name originally occured thousands of times.The point is: Jesus is clearly saying to obey the written command to “worship Jehovah.”
Jehovah IS one of the names of the SON as well as the Father.Gen 19:24
24 Then the Lord (Jehovah) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord (Jehovah) out of heaven,
NASU
So, LU, you are saying that Jesus was telling people to worship himself in this verse?I have a question. How would it have been a “temptation” to be offered so much in exchange for worship, if Jesus already possessed everything and was God himself?
The other thing is: You are simply wrong to say that “Jehovah” is another name for “Jesus.”
Christ or Messiah means “anointed one”? Who anointed him? Himself?
Quote So, LU, you are saying that Jesus was telling people to worship himself in this verse? About Jesus's name being 'Jehovah,' I see two that are called Jehovah and Jesus said that the Father gave Him His name. So, I see a Jehovah-Father and another, a son who has His Father's name, Jehovah-Son.
Do I think that Jesus is telling people to worship Himself?
Actually, I think that He is telling people to worship His Father which, by Spirit enlightened knowledge of the Son, would naturally lead to the worship of Himself since He is one with the Father and in the Father and the Father is in Him and since He was sent by the Father to be our Savior and Lord, etc. This is evident from the many instances where Jesus is being worshiped in the NT. He is not being worshiped as being the Father Himself, but as the promised and long awaited Son of David and Son of God.Quote I have a question. How would it have been a “temptation” to be offered so much in exchange for worship, if Jesus already possessed everything and was God himself? As I have told you, He was the begotten God, not the God that beget. The begotten God receives all things, the God that beget is the source of all things.
Satan was trying to tempt Him to get everything the 'easy' way apart from the will of the Father. The begotten God who became man had emptied Himself of whatever and so didn't have whatever it was any longer. We aren't told what He emptied Himself of but after He laid down His life and went to the cross, He ended up with all authority and dominion from sea to sea and will receive worship from ALL the kings and service from all the nations.
Also, to answer your question…Jehovah the Father anointed Jehovah the Son.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,17:17) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 31 2010,08:56) hi mike it seems they all end up running away,into silence.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,I'm sure in this case, Kathi is just enjoying her weekend.
She doesn't run from anything………except the truth about who we are to worship. mike
LOL, Pierre's comment was about me? Did he miss me that much?As I remember, I posted several posts yesterday and was done with what God had for me to post.
You are right Mike, I do have a life outside of HN. My husband and my youngest were driving from out of state all day and I had a wonderful retreat in the Lord right at home. I also taught my second oldest son how to make beer bread and we had a lobster-on-the grill-fest with a movie. Yesterday was a great day. The weather is beautiful right now!
Today, we enjoyed worshiping the Father and the Son with a gathering of fellow Christians, then rested.
Quote (Baker @ Oct. 30 2010,14:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,03:57) Quote (Baker @ Oct. 31 2010,01:38) Good Scripture, I find it amazing, in spite of it all , some still will worship Jesus. In most Churches all you hear on Songs is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…… chanting His name…..not any better the Catholic Church and the Rosary. Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,Kathi trys to make your scripture “null and void” by claiming “context”. Jesus actually quoted the Septuagint version of Isaiah 29:13, which says in the original Hebrew:
13 The Lord says:
“These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men.Who is it that says it's right to worship Jesus as God, scripture…………or the MEN that Kathi quotes? Kathi's form of worship “is made up only of the rules taught by men”. No scripture tells us it's okay to worship ANYTHING other than God Himself…….and that includes Jesus.
Irene, you bring up another great point that has been ignored at least twice now that I have seen. Jesus is the “mediator” between God and all of mankind. A mediator, by definition, cannot be one of the parties he mediates between. So Jesus can neither be “God”, nor “all of mankind”.
And on that same line, Jesus is our Priest to God. Like a mediator, a priest is someone who goes between us and God. A priest OF God cannot actually BE God. God cannot be His own “Priest”.
And your logic, “If Jesus is God, and we can go directly to him, then what does 'Mediator' even mean?” cannot be refuted.
I agree about the songs, too. It is a testament to our current “Christian” culture that so many believe Jesus to BE God, that when singing about Jesus, they actually believe they are singing about “God Himself”. Very few recording artists seem to know the difference. I think they should actually open a Bible and find out that Jesus is the SON of our God, Jehovah – and not “God Himself”.
peace and love,
mike
Yes, Mike, She did not even say anything to my previous post. No Scripture is going to convince Her, I am afraid…..Her mind is made up, and that's it…..I will try it one more time, after that I will leave it alone….I am going to remember that Scripture in Isaiah……and Math. 15:9 fits Her too….That is making me rather sad………Peace and Love Irene
Very funny Irene, I post several scriptures that speak of Jesus receiving worship and then you pity me for not getting it?If you want me to address your 'why was Jesus the Mediator between God and man' question, this is your answer:
Jesus was the God, as the Son, and not God, as the Father, it was the Father that needed the Son to be the Savior and Mediator so He could redeem us. I worship the Son as the Son, not the Father.
This is how it works as far as I can tell, maybe I'm wrong but this is what I see:
God always existed.
God begat one exactly like Himself-a spirit Son, from eternal nature before creation.
The Father and the Son were together before creation.
A covenant was made between them before creation which was fulfilled in the NT.
The Father caused all things in heaven and on earth to come into being through His Son.
The Son appeared as Jehovah to men and also as an angel at times and also called the 'Word of God' at times in the OT.
The Son who was the Word, emptied Himself and became flesh in order to fulfill the covenant.
The Son receives worship from His infancy and performs all sorts of miracles during His earthly life demonstrating His divinity.
The Son fulfilled the covenant through obeying all the commandments, revealing the Father and laying down His life for mankind, as to His humanity.
The Son was highly exalted and returned to the previous glory which He had shared with His Father.
The Son receives all power and dominion and authority over all creation.
The Son acts as our mediator between us and the Father.
The Son receives worship from ALL kings and service from All nations.
That is just a general order of events as I see them. The list is not conclusive by any means nor does it focus on the Father's activities.
Kathi
what written word is broken or do you break wen you worship Christ,???
you know the word can not be broken . unless you know a scripture that allow it;;
Ex 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Dt 12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Dt 29:18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.
Jos 22:27 On the contrary, it is to be a witness between us and you and the generations that follow, that we will worship the LORD at his sanctuary with our burnt offerings, sacrifices and fellowship offerings. Then in the future your descendants will not be able to say to ours, ‘You have no share in the LORD
Jn 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”Mt 15:9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.Ac 24:14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
Rev 22:9 But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
Rev 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
why does it not say anywhere to worship Christ??is it because God is a jealous God?
Pierre
Pierre,
God does say to worship Christ when talking to the angels, in Hebrews. He never tells us not to worship Christ, anywhere. Christ never tells anyone not to worship Him as the Son of God when they are worshiping Him.No scripture is broken. Worship of the Son should be a natural result of worshiping the Father.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2010,13:21) You are right Mike, I do have a life outside of HN. My husband and my youngest were driving from out of state all day and I had a wonderful retreat in the Lord right at home. I also taught my second oldest son how to make beer bread and we had a lobster-on-the grill-fest with a movie. Yesterday was a great day. The weather is beautiful right now! Today, we enjoyed worshiping the Father and the Son with a gathering of fellow Christians, then rested.
That is truly wonderful Kathi! Everyday is the day God made, and we should rejoice and be glad in it………but days like the one you had are cause for “SUPER-rejoicing”! I'm truly happy that we are blessed to live in a land of plenty and to have the kinds of opportunities we have here. But at the same time saddened that all are not so fortunate.
In time…….no more tears.
peace and love and goodnight,
mikeHi All,
I have had limited particpation in HN lately,
But i have been reading and keeping up with most of the postings.
I guess this is the hot topic of right now.
I think all this debate centers around the word Worship and its literal meaning and what not.
I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor,
Truth is that the Son dwells in the one true Light, when have they ever been seperated?
1 John gives alot of examples of that Kathi,anyways this is just a hit and run, so adios amigos!
Hi Mike
You Said:Quote In fact, the word “proskuneo” is most often rendered as “bowed down before”, like what the man did to King David…….who is not God. (LXX) It is only in cases involving Jesus that the trinitarian translators render what should be “bowed down before” as “worshipped”. Maybe we could start with the fact that there are two different Aramaic words – one for showing reverence, and the other for “homage paid to God” – and Daniel uses one for reverrence paid to the future Messiah, and the other one for the worship paid to God. Mike the greek word
“proskuneo”1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and
touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound
reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make
obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
Its obvious that your trying to interpret it not as worship, but in stead as “bowing down”
Luke 4:7– Satan asks Jesus to “proskuneo” him and all will be his.
Now did Satan ask Jesus just to bow to him? if not than what was he asking of Jesus to do?Jesus interpreted that Satan was asking him to “worship” him and not “bow down to him”
thats why he responded by qouting the OT Scripture
Jesus obviously responeded with 4:8 and also using the greek word “proskuneo”Matthew 4:9-11 Seconds this as well.
****Also in matthew 4:9 Satan was more specific, he had TWO conditions, for Jesus to throw himself down, and THAN worship him.*****It is Clear that Jesus interpreted “proskuneo” as worship in referecence to the temptation of Satan by which he used clear scripture
to prove one must worship God and not worship satan.****Oh And To Add:
Revelation 22:8-9
Revelatins 19:9-10
John also worshipped the Angel who was showing him the “revelations” and even the ANGEL corrected him saying that he must worship GOD.
It is clear that even the Angel renders “proskuneo” as worship and not bowing down.
19:9 is clear that John threw himself down first, and than worshiped the angels feet.It is clear that both occurences deals with Angels, While Jesus succeeds to not worship an Angel, is where John fails. How is it that John who KNOWS the Son of God, worships in Angel after everything he expierenced?
Isnt Jesus greater than the Angels?
Matthew 17
1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.Mark 9
2And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.Revelations 1
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
****Quote I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor, If we are speaking of the Bible as a whole, then you will find that “Jehovah” is mentioned without the “Son” several thousand times!
Quote I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor, That's so true. In fact I wonder why they even have separate names. Oh, wait, because they aren't the same person, and that would be confusing. As it turn out, “Jehovah” is mentioned about 7000 times without the “Son” or “Jesus” being included in the context. This is how the “inspired” Bible writers wrote things down. What did they understand?
Quote Truth is that the Son dwells in the one true Light, when have they ever been seperated? After Jesus creation, they were separated once for a few days.
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:26) Quote I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor, That's so true. In fact I wonder why they even have separate names. Oh, wait, because they aren't the same person, and that would be confusing. As it turn out, “Jehovah” is mentioned about 7000 times without the “Son” or “Jesus” being included in the context. This is how the “inspired” Bible writers wrote things down. What did they understand?
Actually your right,
I also find it riduclous how all of the sudden Paul and John figured out that Jesus had participation in creating the universe.
I mean the OT never talks about such things…. amazing right?Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:27) Quote Truth is that the Son dwells in the one true Light, when have they ever been seperated? After Jesus creation, they were separated once for a few days.
According to what scripture?Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:17) Quote I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor, If we are speaking of the Bible as a whole, then you will find that “Jehovah” is mentioned without the “Son” several thousand times!
I know right?
I find that strange as well?
Why did the Jew feel so insulted when we all are sons of God?
And how did they come up with the concept that God had a begotten Son?
They knew that the messiah was coming, but as the Son? or whats up with that?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 01 2010,18:40) Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:27) Quote Truth is that the Son dwells in the one true Light, when have they ever been seperated? After Jesus creation, they were separated once for a few days.
According to what scripture?
When Jesus died, it was his Father, who was still living who resurrected him. They did not both die.If you look a little further, you'll find Jesus was in hades for that time, which is a state of non-existence. The Father, is the king of eternity, and has always existed.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 01 2010,18:39) Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:26) Quote I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor, That's so true. In fact I wonder why they even have separate names. Oh, wait, because they aren't the same person, and that would be confusing. As it turn out, “Jehovah” is mentioned about 7000 times without the “Son” or “Jesus” being included in the context. This is how the “inspired” Bible writers wrote things down. What did they understand?
Actually your right,
I also find it riduclous how all of the sudden Paul and John figured out that Jesus had participation in creating the universe.
I mean the OT never talks about such things…. amazing right?
First, I know I am right. (I've done the math.) But thank you for acknowledging the obvious.You are right. The OT does never talk about Jesus being used by Jehovah to create the universe BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REALLY TALK ABOUT JESUS TOO MUCH.
Again, thank you for proving my point. (OT hardly mentions the Messiah, but it mentions “Jehovah” 7000 times!)
Simply put, your statement was wrong:
the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor,
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
