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Hi Irene,
Thank you for your clear words. I really would like to hear your definition of 'the trinity' when you get the chance.Thanks!
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,17:39) Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2010,01:29) Quote David,
I think that the word 'very' just means 'true.' That isn't nonsensical. I guess that it is said for emphasis.LU, can you put it into a complete senstence then? Would it be: “Jesus is truely the God of the true God”?
Is that what we think it means?–or is it Jesus being the True God of Jehovah, who is the true God?Can you just plainly state what you believe it is saying?
David,
How about 'Jesus is the only true begotten God, begotten from the only true God who could beget Him.'
How about understanding that Jesus is not God in identity but in nature. He is not THE DIVINE, but is divine.People have taken the God of God and think that it is another God and from that all manner of lies about Jesus has followed.
Jesus is not another God next to God as that contradicts the first commandment and just about every other tenant in scripture.
There is one true God the Father, scripture is clear about that. His son is of God, therefore God of God should mean a divine son of the Divine God. Or a son with divine nature from the God who is divine.
t8,
I understand your thoughts. I think that the one true God, the Father considers the Son as much a part of Him as the radiance is a part of His glory.If I were to say to you to picture the glory of God would you picture something with light that is radiating? If so, then you pictured the source of light and the rays that came from it as all together, not in separable parts. That is what I see anyway. The source is not the rays and the rays are not the source but together they are the glory. This is similar to how I see the Father and Son as together God. The source and the offspring together expressing the one God, the Father. I believe the Offspring was always the intended means of the Father's expression of Himself to creation…the Word of God. He wasn't an after thought but more of an always existent part of God that God put into use when He begot Him.
Kathi:
Quote How is your list coming, the one where you list the supernatural acts of Jesus just before He was given proskuneo?
I gave you one to start with. The one where he was “worshipped” right in front of the Pharisees and they didn't mind at all.
Kathi:
Quote Here is a passage for you that speaks about the Messiah being given proskuneo (worship) from kings and douleuo (service) from all Gentiles from the Septuagint, both words in the same sentence
And here's how even the trinitarian sponsored NIV translates it:11 All kings will bow down to him
and all nations will serve him.mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,15:29) I think it would be helpful for you to list all the times that proskuneo is given to Jesus and then see if anything supernatural was done within the context. This should be a very objective exercise as opposed to subjective.
So in other words, if the man bowed down before David right after he killed Goliath, THEN it would have been “God-Worship”?mike
Tim:
Quote Hey Mike: Like I clearly said, I don't follow mans rituals (like Peter) I follow Jesus, the rock of ages. The cornerstone of the temple, the capstone, the stumbling stone for those who are not born of spirit.
Hi Tim. I agree with this and regret even posting that scripture. Jesus prayed to his Father from whatever bodily position he was in at the time, and I know the others kneeled as their way of showing subservience – even though scripture never tells us we must or should. Forgive me for that, please. I was being “argumentative” for no reason at all.peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,22:08) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,15:29) I think it would be helpful for you to list all the times that proskuneo is given to Jesus and then see if anything supernatural was done within the context. This should be a very objective exercise as opposed to subjective.
So in other words, if the man bowed down before David right after he killed Goliath, THEN it would have been “God-Worship”?mike
Stalling? Afraid that you might see that nearly every incident that proskuneo is given to Jesus there was a supernatural event either just beforehand or asked of Him to perform?Please!
Let's see if the “exercise” will render any “proof”, okay?
1. If someone had “proskuneo'd” Moses right after God performed a sign through him, would it then be “God-Worship”? Would you then consider Moses a “part of the fullness of God Himself”?
2. If the word “proskuneo” was used for what the formerly blind man did after receiving sight from God through Jesus, and we know the man “proskuneo'd” Jesus RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE PHARISEES who were looking for a reason to have him killed, do you still consider it “God-Worship”?
If the answer to either of these is “Yes”, then your exercise might be worth something. If not, then it is just a matter of someone bowing down to show reverrence and even “awe” at the miraculous sign they just witnessed.
It's time for us to take a break from this for a while…………again. Don't worry, we'll live to fight another day.
I'll let David have his say – I need a break.
your friend,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,22:00) Kathi: Quote How is your list coming, the one where you list the supernatural acts of Jesus just before He was given proskuneo?
I gave you one to start with. The one where he was “worshipped” right in front of the Pharisees and they didn't mind at all.Kathi:
Quote Here is a passage for you that speaks about the Messiah being given proskuneo (worship) from kings and douleuo (service) from all Gentiles from the Septuagint, both words in the same sentence
And here's how even the trinitarian sponsored NIV translates it:11 All kings will bow down to him
and all nations will serve him.mike
Mike,You said:
Quote The one where he was “worshipped” right in front of the Pharisees and they didn't mind at all. Let's look at the story and I will bold the responses of the Pharisees/Jews and we will see if they really didn't mind at all that Jesus was being worshiped or even just praised or even given credit for healing the blind man:
Quote John 9:1-10:33
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.17 They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.9 I am the door: by me if any man
enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.30 I and my Father are one.31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
KJVSo if you still don't think that the Pharisees even minded at all that Jesus was given credit for opening the blind man's eyes, let alone worship, you are the one that is needing some wet clay, my friend.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2010,15:29) So if you still don't think that the Pharisees even minded at all that Jesus was given credit for opening the blind man's eyes, let alone worship, you are the one that is needing some wet clay, my friend.
Really Kathi,And after reading this, and knowing how much of a thorn Jesus was in the Pharisees' sides, you STILL think a man could have worshipped him as God right in front of them? Forget that it was Jesus who they wanted dead anyway, would Jewish Law have allowed this act to be performed before anyone or anything without penalty?
Talk to David for a while.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,23:28) Please! Let's see if the “exercise” will render any “proof”, okay?
1. If someone had “proskuneo'd” Moses right after God performed a sign through him, would it then be “God-Worship”? Would you then consider Moses a “part of the fullness of God Himself”?
2. If the word “proskuneo” was used for what the formerly blind man did after receiving sight from God through Jesus, and we know the man “proskuneo'd” Jesus RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE PHARISEES who were looking for a reason to have him killed, do you still consider it “God-Worship”?
If the answer to either of these is “Yes”, then your exercise might be worth something. If not, then it is just a matter of someone bowing down to show reverrence and even “awe” at the miraculous sign they just witnessed.
It's time for us to take a break from this for a while…………again. Don't worry, we'll live to fight another day.
I'll let David have his say – I need a break.
your friend,
mike
Mike,
Now this is even bigger stalling…wow!What this exercise will demonstrate is that the people knew that the one they were proskuneo-ing was doing supernatural works and/or they were asking Him to do supernatural works.
This at the very least should show that He wasn't getting treated like an earthly king.
How many other times when proskuneo was given towards mere men did something supernatural happen by them?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,23:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2010,15:29) So if you still don't think that the Pharisees even minded at all that Jesus was given credit for opening the blind man's eyes, let alone worship, you are the one that is needing some wet clay, my friend.
Really Kathi,And after reading this, and knowing how much of a thorn Jesus was in the Pharisees' sides, you STILL think a man could have worshipped him as God right in front of them? Forget that it was Jesus who they wanted dead anyway, would Jewish Law have allowed this act to be performed before anyone or anything without penalty?
Talk to David for a while.
mike
Ummm Mike,
He worshiped Jesus as the Son of God. Did you miss that?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,22:00) Kathi: Quote How is your list coming, the one where you list the supernatural acts of Jesus just before He was given proskuneo?
I gave you one to start with. The one where he was “worshipped” right in front of the Pharisees and they didn't mind at all.Kathi:
Quote Here is a passage for you that speaks about the Messiah being given proskuneo (worship) from kings and douleuo (service) from all Gentiles from the Septuagint, both words in the same sentence
And here's how even the trinitarian sponsored NIV translates it:11 All kings will bow down to him
and all nations will serve him.mike
So Mike,You said:
Quote Kathi: Quote Here is a passage for you that speaks about the Messiah being given proskuneo (worship) from kings and douleuo (service) from all Gentiles from the Septuagint, both words in the same sentence And here's how even the trinitarian sponsored NIV translates it:
11 All kings will bow down to him
and all nations will serve him.Seriously, this is how you respond to the Messiah getting proskuneo from ALL the kings and being served by ALL the Gentiles?
Do you think that doesn't violate the first commandment, if bowing down and worship wasn't ok for Jesus too?You think that changing the word from 'worship' to 'bowing down' makes it not in violation of the first commandment?
Let's see what God says about bowing down before other gods shall we:
Ps 81:9
You shall have no foreign god among you; you shall not bow down to an alien godDe 5:9
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,De 8:19
If you ever forget the LORD your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed.Jos 23:16
If you violate the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the LORD's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land he has given you.”Have you had enough proof that even 'bowing down' isn't cool with God, so your 'argument' is without merit.
In summary, in this passage where the Messiah is receiving proskuneo from ALL the kings and is being served by ALL the Gentiles, you agree that is ok and doesn't violate the first commandment?
Quote Psalms 72:1 O God, give thy judgment to the king, and thy righteousness to the king’s son; 2 that he may judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. 3 Let the mountains and the hills raise peace to thy people: 4 he shall judge the poor of the people in righteousness, and save the children of the needy; and shall bring low the false accuser. 5 And he shall continue as long as the sun, and before the moon for ever. 6 He shall come down as rain upon a fleece; and as drops falling upon the earth. 7 In his days shall righteousness spring up; and abundance of peace till the moon be removed. 8 And he shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth. 9 The Ethiopians shall fall down before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tharsis, and the isles, shall bring presents: the kings of the Arabians and Saba shall offer gifts. 11 And all kings shall worship him; all the Gentiles shall serve him. 12 For he has delivered the poor from the oppressor; and the needy who had no helper. 13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall deliver the souls of the needy. 14 He shall redeem their souls from usury and injustice: and their name shall be precious before him. 15 And he shall live, and there shall be given him of the gold of Arabia: and men shall pray for him continually; and all the day shall they praise him. 16 There shall be an establishment on the earth on the tops of the mountains: the fruit thereof shall be exalted above Libanus, and they of the city shall flourish as grass of the earth.
17 Let his name be blessed for ever: his name shall endure longer than the sun: and all the tribes of the earth shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, who alone does wonders. 19 And blessed is his glorious name for ever, even for ever and ever: and all the earth shall be filled with his glory. So be it, so be it. 20 The hymns of David the son of Jessae are ended.
If you think that is ok and doesn't violate the first commandment when ALL the kings proskuneo the Messiah, then, when I say that I proskuneo the Messiah, that should be ok, too. So I don't want to ever hear that my proskuneo towards the Messiah Jesus isn't ok from you again. Or I will have to go over this passage again with you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,23:53) David……….Kathi's calling you!
Mike…Kathi's proving you wrong.Kathi,
NO ONE ever “Worshipped” ANYONE in front of the Pharisees in a “godly” way without something being said.
Paul was a Pharisee who was turned to Christ. And I showed you where he told the Jewish council that he only worships the same God they worship.
Paul knew the difference between God and His Son. He knew which ONE of them to worship. But you have missed that part of the scriptural teaching………..along with the many times it is clearly said to ONLY worship Jehovah. And one of those many times, the Son you worship against the command of God was the one who said it.
How do you ignore all this? How do you think the stuff you make up in your head overwrites the words of God Himself?
Jesus said that not one stroke of a pen will disappear from the Law. You are removing many, many strokes to satisfy you own flawed thinking. You revere the words of those men you quote over the words of God Himself.
At first I feel sad. Then I think maybe I can help. Then I start to enjoy the scriptural research and “combat”. But then I just become angry, because you stop using scriptural words in favor of weird man-made phrases that I can't even fathom.
I'm to that point now. I'll talk to you about Ezekiel in the Micah thread if you want. But I need a break from the “worship” thing, for you have stopped being both rational and scriptural.
peace and love,
mikeWow, Mike,
I counted 23 verses of SCRIPTURE on this page alone and you say that I have stopped being scriptural? Are you reading these verses that I am giving you?I counted about 72 verses of SCRIPTURE on the page just prior to this.
Is scripture not scripture to you?
Mike,
Quote Paul was a Pharisee who was turned to Christ. And I showed you where he told the Jewish council that he only worships the same God they worship. Paul knew the difference between God and His Son. He knew which ONE of them to worship. But you have missed that part of the scriptural teaching………..along with the many times it is clearly said to ONLY worship Jehovah. And one of those many times, the Son you worship against the command of God was the one who said it.
So Paul worshiped the same God as the Jews, well the same God as the Jews was the ONE that had mighty power and “OUTSTRETCHED ARM” and that is the Father with the Son because the Son is the outstretched arm, Mike!
2Ki 17:36
But the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices.Jehovah knows who He is and knows that His Outstretched Arm is part of the one God that 'you must worship.'
The Outstretched Arm is revealed as the Messiah and Psalms 72 says that the Messiah will receive worship from ALL the kings and is served by ALL the Gentiles and that is not a problem for God at all, it is His plan! Receive…
Oh, look Mike, one more verse, that makes 24 verses that I used on this page alone. You say you are angry, you might consider 'convicted' as an alternative to 'angry' if you allow the Holy Spirit to refine your understanding. Conviction can lead to repentance and that would bring freedom. Allow it…it is up to you.
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