Worship God the Father only?

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,22:08)

Quote Don't separate God from His radiance or you will be without the true light. –LU Jesus is called both the “way” and the “light.” He is our way to God.  He is the light that helps us to see and understand God.   No one is suggesting we separate Jesus from God.  We are simply suggesting that God is much above Jesus as the Sun is above the light it sends out.  (One helps us to see.  The other blinds us if we look directly at it.)

The Father is also called Light, isn't He?

Jesus is called the Way yet He is also called Lord and God and Savior, the Wisdom of God, the Power of God, etc.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2010,22:44)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,16:36) You can see for yourself that the Greek word for worship was what was given to Jesus after He showed His divine power several times. Yes Kathi, This is one of those times: John 9:35-40 NIV 35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36″Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.” 37Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” 38Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. 39Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” 40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” I can't believe the Pharisees who were WITH Jesus when the man “worshipped” him said nothing.  By this point they were already looking for a reason to have him killed.  I think being “worshipped” as if he was God would have been reason enough. And here's another example of the word “proskuneo”: 2 Samuel 1:2 LXX And it came to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came from the camp, from the people of Saul, and his garments were rent, and earth [was] upon his head: and it came to pass when he went in to David, that he fell upon the earth, and did obeisance to him. Hmmmm………same word “proskuneo”, yet it seems that it is ONLY when the word is used in referrence to doing obeisance to Jesus that it is translated as “worship”. But because of the “confusion” over the word “proskuneo”, I love the fact that Daniel uses two different words – one for the homage paid to God, and another for the “servitude” that will be afforded Jesus. Daniel 3:28 NIV Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God. In this scripture about “God worship”, the NIV correctly translates the Aramaic word “cegid” as “worship”.  And they correctly translate the Aramaic word “pelach” as “serve”. Daniel 7:14 NIV 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. But in this passage about the Messiah, the Aramaic word “pelach” is for some reason translated as “worship” by the NIV.  But the word actually means “serve”, just as they translated it in 3:28.  Why would they translate a word they KNOW means “serve” as “worship”?  It is most likely for the same reason that they translate any use of “proskuneo” in referrence to Jesus as “worship”, yet when that same word was used of Peter, they rendered it as “fell at his feet in reverence”. (Acts 10:25) And we all know the reason.  It is because the trinitarian sponsored NIV, like most major translations EXCEPT the NWT, will purposely mistranslate any words they think they can get away with to lead people to the idea that Jesus is God. By the way, the LXX translates the Aramaic word that means “worship” as “proskuneo”.  But they translate the word that means “serve” as “douleuo”…….which means “serve”. Anyway, aside from all these definitions, Daniel 7:14 shows in a vision from God, that Jesus will be “served”, but never “worshipped”. peace and love, mike

Mike,
Study the word for worship and carefully observe when it is done after a supernatural act. This might help you see why it is translated as worship in many Bibles when given to Jesus.

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:26)

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,22:08) Quote Don't separate God from His radiance or you will be without the true light. –LU Jesus is called both the “way” and the “light.” He is our way to God.  He is the light that helps us to see and understand God.   No one is suggesting we separate Jesus from God.  We are simply suggesting that God is much above Jesus as the Sun is above the light it sends out.  (One helps us to see.  The other blinds us if we look directly at it.) The Father is also called Light, isn't He? Jesus is called the Way yet He is also called Lord and God and Savior, the Wisdom of God, the Power of God, etc.

Kathi! Jesus is our Mediator to go to the Throne of God and Worship God Almighty and honor Jesus. Worship should only go to Almighty God. Scripture I have given in the other tread….. Jesus Himself tells us that His father is greater then He is….Almighty God is above all…… That includes Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not to be worshiped either. It is a n essence of God, and not a Person….
Peace Irene

[Tim Kraft]

Just a note for those who believe Jesus will return to earth to rule from the temple in Jerusalem, at John4:21 Jesus told the lady at the well that… “the hour cometh when ye shall neither in this mountain nor yet in Jerusalem worship the father…” So I guess Jesus won't be reigning from the temple in Jerusalem, he goes on to say at V23…” The true worshipers shall worship the father in spirit and truth (the words of God through Jesus)!” If there is a true worshiper there must be a false worshiper. Any form of worship, created by man, kneeling, bowing, closing eyes, folding hands, kissing walls, kissing floors, wearing special clothes, or any type ritual etc., apart from Gods words through Jesus is not true worship. TK

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:29)

Mike, Study the word for worship and carefully observe when it is done after a supernatural act. This might help you see why it is translated as worship in many Bibles when given to Jesus.

Hi Kathi,

Like the supernatural act of giving the blind man sight? Because that's one of the “worships” that was done right in front of the Pharisees.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Hi Tim,

Acts 9:40 NIV
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed.

Maybe “the Rock” didn't know what you know?

Also, apparently Jesus was speaking of the current temple in the current Jerusalem.  Revelations makes it clear that there will be a New Jerusalem.  But you are right about the temple, for God and the Lamb will BE the temple.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2010,22:44)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,16:36) You can see for yourself that the Greek word for worship was what was given to Jesus after He showed His divine power several times. Yes Kathi, This is one of those times: John 9:35-40 NIV 35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36″Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.” 37Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” 38Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. 39Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” 40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” I can't believe the Pharisees who were WITH Jesus when the man “worshipped” him said nothing.  By this point they were already looking for a reason to have him killed.  I think being “worshipped” as if he was God would have been reason enough. And here's another example of the word “proskuneo”: 2 Samuel 1:2 LXX And it came to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came from the camp, from the people of Saul, and his garments were rent, and earth [was] upon his head: and it came to pass when he went in to David, that he fell upon the earth, and did obeisance to him. Hmmmm………same word “proskuneo”, yet it seems that it is ONLY when the word is used in referrence to doing obeisance to Jesus that it is translated as “worship”. But because of the “confusion” over the word “proskuneo”, I love the fact that Daniel uses two different words – one for the homage paid to God, and another for the “servitude” that will be afforded Jesus. Daniel 3:28 NIV Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God. In this scripture about “God worship”, the NIV correctly translates the Aramaic word “cegid” as “worship”.  And they correctly translate the Aramaic word “pelach” as “serve”. Daniel 7:14 NIV 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. But in this passage about the Messiah, the Aramaic word “pelach” is for some reason translated as “worship” by the NIV.  But the word actually means “serve”, just as they translated it in 3:28.  Why would they translate a word they KNOW means “serve” as “worship”?  It is most likely for the same reason that they translate any use of “proskuneo” in referrence to Jesus as “worship”, yet when that same word was used of Peter, they rendered it as “fell at his feet in reverence”. (Acts 10:25) And we all know the reason.  It is because the trinitarian sponsored NIV, like most major translations EXCEPT the NWT, will purposely mistranslate any words they think they can get away with to lead people to the idea that Jesus is God. By the way, the LXX translates the Aramaic word that means “worship” as “proskuneo”.  But they translate the word that means “serve” as “douleuo”…….which means “serve”. Anyway, aside from all these definitions, Daniel 7:14 shows in a vision from God, that Jesus will be “served”, but never “worshipped”. peace and love, mike

How is your list coming, the one where you list the supernatural acts of Jesus just before He was given proskuneo?

Here is a passage for you that speaks about the Messiah being given proskuneo (worship) from kings and douleuo (service) from all Gentiles from the Septuagint, both words in the same sentence

Psalms 72:1 O God, give thy judgment to the king, and thy righteousness to the king’s son; 2 that he may judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

3 Let the mountains and the hills raise peace to thy people: 4 he shall judge the poor of the people in righteousness, and save the children of the needy; and shall bring low the false accuser. 5 And he shall continue as long as the sun, and before the moon for ever. 6 He shall come down as rain upon a fleece; and as drops falling upon the earth. 7 In his days shall righteousness spring up; and abundance of peace till the moon be removed. 8 And he shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth. 9 The Ethiopians shall fall down before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tharsis, and the isles, shall bring presents: the kings of the Arabians and Saba shall offer gifts. 11 And all kings shall worship him; all the Gentiles shall serve him. 12 For he has delivered the poor from the oppressor; and the needy who had no helper. 13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall deliver the souls of the needy. 14 He shall redeem their souls from usury and injustice: and their name shall be precious before him. 15 And he shall live, and there shall be given him of the gold of Arabia: and men shall pray for him continually; and all the day shall they praise him. 16 There shall be an establishment on the earth on the tops of the mountains: the fruit thereof shall be exalted above Libanus, and they of the city shall flourish as grass of the earth.

17 Let his name be blessed for ever: his name shall endure longer than the sun: and all the tribes of the earth shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

18 Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, who alone does wonders. 19 And blessed is his glorious name for ever, even for ever and ever: and all the earth shall be filled with his glory. So be it, so be it. 20 The hymns of David the son of Jessae are ended.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 28 2010,02:01)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:26) Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,22:08) Quote Don't separate God from His radiance or you will be without the true light. –LU Jesus is called both the “way” and the “light.” He is our way to God.  He is the light that helps us to see and understand God.   No one is suggesting we separate Jesus from God.  We are simply suggesting that God is much above Jesus as the Sun is above the light it sends out.  (One helps us to see.  The other blinds us if we look directly at it.) The Father is also called Light, isn't He? Jesus is called the Way yet He is also called Lord and God and Savior, the Wisdom of God, the Power of God, etc. Kathi!  Jesus is our Mediator to go to the Throne of God and Worship God Almighty and honor Jesus.  Worship should only go to Almighty God.  Scripture I have given in the other tread….. Jesus Himself tells us that His father is greater then He is….Almighty God is above all…… That includes Jesus.  The Holy Spirit is not to be worshiped either.  It is a n essence of God, and not a Person…. Peace Irene

Yes Irene, I know that you can't see that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit together representing the one God. I do see this so we will have to let God meet us where we are. You are not going to change my mind.

God bless!

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2010,22:05)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:29) Mike, Study the word for worship and carefully observe when it is done after a supernatural act.  This might help you see why it is translated as worship in many Bibles when given to Jesus. Hi Kathi, Like the supernatural act of giving the blind man sight?  Because that's one of the “worships” that was done right in front of the Pharisees. mike

Yes, that is one of them. Don't forget the Pharisees were threatened by Jesus and eventually killed Him.

I think it would be helpful for you to list all the times that proskuneo is given to Jesus and then see if anything supernatural was done within the context. This should be a very objective exercise as opposed to subjective.

[Lightenup]

Here is another example that speaks of Christ as a part of God…

Quote

But to whom”is the arm of the Lord revealed?” (Is 53:1) And what does this “arm” really mean?  In Deuteronomy 33:27 there is a deep promise: “The eternal God is thy refuge, and undereath are the everlasting arms.” Targum Onkelos paraphrases this saying: “These arms and the Memra (the Word, Logos) by whom the world has been created.”  The word Memra appears 599 times in the Aramaic paraphrases but not a single time in the Talmud, because this concept was identified with the word Messiah and used by the first Christians.  Targum Jonathan, for example, explains that the serpent in the wilderness relates to the Messiah: “He who raises his heart in the name of Yahweh's Memra will remain in life.” Christ is the outstretched hand of God for us.  God reveals himself by his “arm.” by the Messiah.

http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/santalasufferingmessiah.pdf

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:21)

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,21:36) Quote very God of very God It seems the first instance of “God” here, it is being used as a verb.  Actually, maybe in both instances, it's being used as a verb. Can you explain what this means? David, I don't see the word “God” in either case as a verb but as a noun.  For instance, if I said “Spirit of God” the word 'Spirit' and the word 'God' are both nouns.

OK, but did you notice the word “very” in front of those words?

Very Son
Very spirit
Very king

The above things don't mean anything.

Saying “Very God” must mean “very mighty” or “very Godlike” or “very godly.”

Very Kevin
Very Jesus
Very Lord

They don't mean anything.

very spirit of very God

You can say “very spirited.” That's a real expression and makes sense. But “very spirit” is meaningless.

Maybe this is where the confusion comes in. The niceene Creed clearly says that Jesus is the “Son of” God, (which we ignore) but where it says some non-sensical wording of “very God of very God” we jump all over that despite it not actually making any sense.

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:23)

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,22:16) Quote i Kathi, To which scripture do you refer where Jesus spoke as “God OF God”? There in fact are none.  Jesus is repeatedly referred to as the “Son of” God, and he is never ever referred to as the “God of” God. Why can't we just go with what the scriptures repeatedly and clearly say?  Even the Niceen Creed says that Jesus was the Son of God, and it of course also confusingly says that Jesus was “very God of very God” whatever that is supposed to mean. Very son of very son??? Very king of very king?? Confusing. The Niceen Creed says Jesus was the Son of God, but then it also throws in that confusing phrase. The Bible is way more clear in that it refers to Jesus as the “Son of” God many many times.  (And never the God of God, or very God of very God, or whatever.) It isn't confusing to me.  We know that He is God and we know that He is from God the Father.  Every time He is called the Son of God He is implying that He is the same type as His Father.

If it's not very confusing, perhaps you could explain it to me. Perhaps you noticed I didn't say “very confuse” because that would have been confusing wouldn't it have?

To you, what does “very God of very God” actually mean?

Was Paul “very Paul of very Paul”? And if so, what would that mean?

[david]

In the Nicene Creed, Jesus is called the “Son of” God.

But LU, you seem to try to be proving that he is the “God of” God.

Yet your creed states that he is the Son of God.
You want to prove that he is the God of God.

I still think you are using obscure phrasing to try to prove something: “very God of very God.”
(It is confusing.)

[david]

If Jesus is the “God of” God Jehovah, then what would it mean if Jehovah is also the “God of” Jesus, as scripture actually states?

What does the word “God” mean and how is it that Jesus is the “God of” the Father and at the same time the Father is actually described as the “God of” Jesus?

To me, this is like saying that Frank is the leader of Henry and Henry is the leader of Frank.
Or, Jessica is above Cathy and Cathy is above Jessica.

Does it not seem a contradiction?

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2010,00:59)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:21) Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,21:36) Quote very God of very God It seems the first instance of “God” here, it is being used as a verb.  Actually, maybe in both instances, it's being used as a verb. Can you explain what this means? David, I don't see the word “God” in either case as a verb but as a noun.  For instance, if I said “Spirit of God” the word 'Spirit' and the word 'God' are both nouns. OK, but did you notice the word “very” in front of those words? Very Son Very spirit Very king The above things don't mean anything. Saying “Very God” must mean “very mighty” or “very Godlike” or “very godly.” Very Kevin Very Jesus Very Lord They don't mean anything.   very spirit of very God You can say “very spirited.”  That's a real expression and makes sense.  But “very spirit” is meaningless. Maybe this is where the confusion comes in.  The niceene Creed clearly says that Jesus is the “Son of” God, (which we ignore) but where it says some non-sensical wording of “very God of very God” we jump all over that despite it not actually making any sense.

David,
I think that the word 'very' just means 'true.' That isn't nonsensical. I guess that it is said for emphasis.

I wouldn't say that the words “Son of God” are ignored, I do think they are explained in what follows.

[david]

Quote

David, I think that the word 'very' just means 'true.' That isn't nonsensical. I guess that it is said for emphasis.

LU, can you put it into a complete senstence then? Would it be: “Jesus is truely the God of the true God”?
Is that what we think it means?–or is it Jesus being the True God of Jehovah, who is the true God?

Can you just plainly state what you believe it is saying?

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2010,01:09)

If Jesus is the “God of” God Jehovah, then what would it mean if Jehovah is also the “God of” Jesus, as scripture actually states? What does the word “God” mean and how is it that Jesus is the “God of” the Father and at the same time the Father is actually described as the “God of” Jesus? To me, this is like saying that Frank is the leader of Henry and Henry is the leader of Frank. Or, Jessica is above Cathy and Cathy is above Jessica. Does it not seem a contradiction?

David,
I see that you are confused.  You have to understand the context to know what is being said with those 'of' phrases.
In the context of the Nicene Creed  we see that the Son was BEGOTTEN of the Father, so already knowing that, it continues to say that the Son is 'God of God' etc. and it should be understood that the Son as God was begotten from the Father and not the other way around.

Read it again:

Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made…

When understanding the context and meaning of the terms it is not a contradiction.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2010,01:29)

Quote David, I think that the word 'very' just means 'true.'  That isn't nonsensical.  I guess that it is said for emphasis. LU, can you put it into a complete senstence then?  Would it be: “Jesus is truely the God of the true God”? Is that what we think it means?–or is it Jesus being the True God of Jehovah, who is the true God? Can you just plainly state what you believe it is saying?

David,
How about 'Jesus is the only true begotten God, begotten from the only true God who could beget Him.'

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2010,14:16)

Hi Tim, Acts 9:40 NIV Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Maybe “the Rock” didn't know what you know? Also, apparently Jesus was speaking of the current temple in the current Jerusalem.  Revelations makes it clear that there will be a New Jerusalem.  But you are right about the temple, for God and the Lamb will BE the temple. peace and love, mike

Hey Mike: Like I clearly said, I don't follow mans rituals (like Peter) I follow Jesus, the rock of ages. The cornerstone of the temple, the capstone, the stumbling stone for those who are not born of spirit.

If one is not born again mentally of spirit (Jesus words) he cannot see (perceive) the Kingdom of God. In the new covenant everything switched back to the original relation with God. Just as Adam walked with God. Adam didn't have a church building or temple or city to go to or law to follow. He had no rituals, new moons, dress codes, hymn books, organ music, or alters for sacrifice! The first became last and the last became first.

Jesus left the earth being received in the cloud (spirit) and he will come again in like manner when each individual receives Jesus as the spirit truth of God.

Hear the spirit. Jesus comes/manifests anew/again each time a person accepts/believes he is the way to God. Each time a person turns to the truth of God by accepting the words/spirit of Jesus he returns to the earth/earthen vessel of a human.

The reason it is better like Jesus said, that he go so as to come again is that he now resides personally in each individual. This he could not do before!

Now the entire Kingdom of God, Jesus, God, the holy spirit complete can dwell, live in, make their abode in each person.

We are the temple, we are his body, we are the new Jerusalem that came down out of the sky. We are a composite of truths or spirit words of God from Jesus the master.

We now fight the good fight (against the existence of evil) of faith. Believing in God/good only. The war of truth in our minds. Not fighting flesh and blood. Religious warmongers are the most dangerous of all humans. They believe they kill doing a service unto God.

In all Bible truth (new covenant) see with understanding, hear with spirit ears, and walk by faith in the dream within. TK

PS The Revealation of Jesus Christ, given to John, (not revelations) doesn't make anything clear!!

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,15:24)

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 28 2010,02:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,16:26) Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2010,22:08) Quote Don't separate God from His radiance or you will be without the true light. –LU Jesus is called both the “way” and the “light.” He is our way to God.  He is the light that helps us to see and understand God.   No one is suggesting we separate Jesus from God.  We are simply suggesting that God is much above Jesus as the Sun is above the light it sends out.  (One helps us to see.  The other blinds us if we look directly at it.) The Father is also called Light, isn't He? Jesus is called the Way yet He is also called Lord and God and Savior, the Wisdom of God, the Power of God, etc. Kathi!  Jesus is our Mediator to go to the Throne of God and Worship God Almighty and honor Jesus.  Worship should only go to Almighty God.  Scripture I have given in the other tread….. Jesus Himself tells us that His father is greater then He is….Almighty God is above all…… That includes Jesus.  The Holy Spirit is not to be worshiped either.  It is a n essence of God, and not a Person…. Peace Irene Yes Irene, I know that you can't see that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit together representing the one God.  I do see this so we will have to let God meet us where we are.  You are not going to change my mind. God bless!

If that is what you saying and believing, that is the trinity….You are far out where I would not go……..I am not going to change your mind, and neither is anyone else .  Whatever happened to you
is not of God, but of men……. it is not even worth to discus this with you and show you scriptures…..When your blind your blind.
Peace Irene

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