The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

[david]

Quote

Hi David, Offer a third possibility to my point of Heb 12:9 then, instead of just dodging my point, or claiming it is invalid. You said you wanted to discuss the matter, have you changed your mind?

–ed.

Ed, if you look a couple pages back, you find this:

I was wanting to address these other comments before getting to the one scripture you wanted to discuss.
First, there are not only 2 options. I don't know why you would say that.

The “father of spirits” could be God. And God could be the Father of the vast number of spirits that were created. But, the holy spirit, since in scripture it is spoken of so often possessively, as if he possesses it, as if it is the “finger of God” or his Arm, or his power, it should be easy for you to understand that God did not Create his own arm. God is not the father of his own arm.

So, no, there is anther option. That option is, we understand the holy spirit in light of how it is often spoken of in the Bible–as something God possesses. For simplicity sake, I keep saying his 'finger' as it is spoken of that way a couple of times.

Ed, a 3d possibility is that the holy spirit–it is the spirit “OF” God. In other words, it is like his “FINGER.” If SCRIPTURE was right to make this comparison, which it was, then we should think of the holy spirit that way. The finger of God is no more God himself than my finger is me myself.

There, above, is your third option. So, when it says that he (God) is the Father of spirits, it isn't talking about God being the father of his finger, or of HIS holy spirit.

Ed, you are not the father of your finger. And Ed, yo are not your finger. As scripture repeatedly says, it is the spirit “of” God.

[david]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,07:12)

Hi ED, God is soul [ps11] and has a Spirit. He is not father of His own Spirit but is the source of all life.

Ya Ed!

See, even Catholicism understands this point.

(You two should perhaps sort this out yourself.) 🙂

[david]

Nick, on that last point, I should mention John (I think 4:24) which says that God IS a spirit.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:12)

Quote Hi David, Offer a third possibility to my point of Heb 12:9 then, instead of just dodging my point, or claiming it is invalid. You said you wanted to discuss the matter, have you changed your mind? –ed. Ed, if you look a couple pages back, you find this: I was wanting to address these other comments before getting to the one scripture you wanted to discuss.   First, there are not only 2 options.  I don't know why you would say that. The “father of spirits” could be God.  And God could be the Father of the vast number of spirits that were created.  But, the holy spirit, since in scripture it is spoken of so often possessively, as if he possesses it, as if it is the “finger of God” or his Arm, or his power, it should be easy for you to understand that God did not Create his own arm.  God is not the father of his own arm.   So, no, there is anther option.  That option is, we understand the holy spirit in light of how it is often spoken of in the Bible–as something God possesses.  For simplicity sake, I keep saying his 'finger' as it is spoken of that way a couple of times. Ed, a 3d possibility is that the holy spirit–it is the spirit   “OF”  God.     In other words, it is like his “FINGER.”  If SCRIPTURE was right to make this comparison, which it was, then we should think of the holy spirit that way.  The finger of God is no more God himself than my finger is me myself. There, above, is your third option.  So, when it says that he (God) is the Father of spirits, it isn't talking about God being the father of his finger, or of HIS holy spirit.   Ed, you are not the father of your finger.  And Ed, yo are not your finger.  As scripture repeatedly says, it is the spirit “of” God.

Hi David,

I already know that is YOUR opinion, you have expressed it many times,
but it does not address the point I make concerning Heb.12:9.

There are “only” two (Spirit) positions available in Heb.12:9.
This verse allows for no other position of the “HolySpirit”, other than “A” or “B”.

A. The “Father of Spirits” is the “HolySpirit”.

B. The HolySpirit is one of the “spirits”(?) that the Father of Spirits is the father of.  

The evidence points to “A”, what say YOU?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:13)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,07:12) Hi ED, God is soul [ps11] and has a Spirit. He is not father of His own Spirit but is the source of all life. Ya Ed! See, even Catholicism understands this point.   (You two should perhaps sort this out yourself.) 🙂

Hi David,

I said “A” was the answer, not “B”.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
The spirits of living things return to God Who gave them at death[Ecc12]
God is the Father of spirits

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:14)

Nick, on that last point, I should mention John (I think 4:24) which says that God IS a spirit.

Hi David, No need for the indefinite article.

John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,07:21)

Hi ED, The spirits of living things return to God Who gave them at death[Ecc12] God is the Father of spirits

Hi Nick,

Agreed!   It is David that doesn't seem to believe this, not me.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
The only way to do this is to become one with God's Spirit in Christ.
So all the false worship in the buildings of men waste their time

[david]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 27 2012,07:25)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,07:21) Hi ED, The spirits of living things return to God Who gave them at death[Ecc12] God is the Father of spirits Hi Nick, Agreed!   It is David that doesn't seem to believe this, not me. Your brother in Christ, Jesus. Ed J (Joshua 22:34) holycitybiblecode.org

Wrong.

I don't disagree with anything Nick just said.

The Catholic seems to think you are wrong.

[david]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,07:28)

Hi ED, The only way to do this is to become one with God's Spirit in Christ. So all the false worship in the buildings of men waste their time

Agreed.

Ed, you must become one with God's spirit. You must also be one with Christ.

[david]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 27 2012,07:23)

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:14) Nick, on that last point, I should mention John (I think 4:24) which says that God IS a spirit. Hi David, No need for the indefinite article. John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, it looks like about 1/2 of the Bibles on Biblecc translate it as:

“God is a spirit.'

But the point, which many here seem to miss is the “IS.”

True, God has spirit, and God has his holy spirit, but God doesn't HAVE “a spirit” as though inside of God is a ghost or something.

Rather, God is spirit. God is a spirit.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:31)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 27 2012,07:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,07:21) Hi ED, The spirits of living things return to God Who gave them at death[Ecc12] God is the Father of spirits Hi Nick, Agreed!   It is David that doesn't seem to believe this, not me. Your brother in Christ, Jesus. Ed J (Joshua 22:34) holycitybiblecode.org Wrong. I don't disagree with anything Nick just said. The Catholic seems to think you are wrong.

Hi David,

Are not “JW's” taught that one's spirit dies and stays dead instead of returning to the father?

So either you do disagree with what Nick said or you reject “JW” teaching; which is it?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[david]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 27 2012,07:18)

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:12) Quote Hi David, Offer a third possibility to my point of Heb 12:9 then, instead of just dodging my point, or claiming it is invalid. You said you wanted to discuss the matter, have you changed your mind? –ed. Ed, if you look a couple pages back, you find this: I was wanting to address these other comments before getting to the one scripture you wanted to discuss.   First, there are not only 2 options.  I don't know why you would say that. The “father of spirits” could be God.  And God could be the Father of the vast number of spirits that were created.  But, the holy spirit, since in scripture it is spoken of so often possessively, as if he possesses it, as if it is the “finger of God” or his Arm, or his power, it should be easy for you to understand that God did not Create his own arm.  God is not the father of his own arm.   So, no, there is anther option.  That option is, we understand the holy spirit in light of how it is often spoken of in the Bible–as something God possesses.  For simplicity sake, I keep saying his 'finger' as it is spoken of that way a couple of times. Ed, a 3d possibility is that the holy spirit–it is the spirit   “OF”  God.     In other words, it is like his “FINGER.”  If SCRIPTURE was right to make this comparison, which it was, then we should think of the holy spirit that way.  The finger of God is no more God himself than my finger is me myself. There, above, is your third option.  So, when it says that he (God) is the Father of spirits, it isn't talking about God being the father of his finger, or of HIS holy spirit.   Ed, you are not the father of your finger.  And Ed, yo are not your finger.  As scripture repeatedly says, it is the spirit “of” God. Hi David, I already know that is YOUR opinion, you have expressed it many times, but it does not address the point I make concerning Heb.12:9. There are “only” two (Spirit) positions available in Heb.12:9. This verse allows for no other position of the “HolySpirit”, other than “A” or “B”. A. The “Father of Spirits” is the “HolySpirit”. B. The HolySpirit is one of the “spirits”(?) that the Father of Spirits is the father of.   The evidence points to “A”, what say YOU? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, which part of what I underlined was “opinion'?

–That the holy spirit is like God's finger? Is that MY opinion?
–Is it MY opinion that the holy spirit is the spirit “of” God, or does scripture say this many times?
–Or, do you think it's my opinion to say: “The finger of God is no more God himself than my finger is me myself.”

WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU REFERRING TO WHEN YOU SAY THAT IS MY “OPINION”?

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,07:28) Hi ED, The only way to do this is to become one with God's Spirit in Christ. So all the false worship in the buildings of men waste their time Agreed. Ed, you must become one with God's spirit.  You must also be one with Christ.

Hi David,

What makes YOU believe that I haven't?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[david]

Quote

Hi David, Are not “JW's” taught that one's spirit dies and stays dead instead of returning to the father?

New International Version (©1984)
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.

English Standard Version (©2001)
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

As scripture says, when the PERSON dies, the spirit, which is something God gives, returns to the true God, who gave it. In that day, the person's thoughts perish. They are unconscious. This is what JW's teach.

[david]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 27 2012,07:40)

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,07:28) Hi ED, The only way to do this is to become one with God's Spirit in Christ. So all the false worship in the buildings of men waste their time Agreed. Ed, you must become one with God's spirit.  You must also be one with Christ. Hi David, What makes YOU believe that I haven't? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Sorry, Ed. I was just jumping on the Nick bandwagon. Its amusing to see his bizarre unrelated comments directed at someone other than myself. Couldn't help it. Sorry.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:40)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 27 2012,07:18) Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:12) Quote Hi David, Offer a third possibility to my point of Heb 12:9 then, instead of just dodging my point, or claiming it is invalid. You said you wanted to discuss the matter, have you changed your mind? –ed. Ed, if you look a couple pages back, you find this: I was wanting to address these other comments before getting to the one scripture you wanted to discuss.   First, there are not only 2 options.  I don't know why you would say that. The “father of spirits” could be God.  And God could be the Father of the vast number of spirits that were created.  But, the holy spirit, since in scripture it is spoken of so often possessively, as if he possesses it, as if it is the “finger of God” or his Arm, or his power, it should be easy for you to understand that God did not Create his own arm.  God is not the father of his own arm.   So, no, there is anther option.  That option is, we understand the holy spirit in light of how it is often spoken of in the Bible–as something God possesses.  For simplicity sake, I keep saying his 'finger' as it is spoken of that way a couple of times. Ed, a 3d possibility is that the holy spirit–it is the spirit   “OF”  God.     In other words, it is like his “FINGER.”  If SCRIPTURE was right to make this comparison, which it was, then we should think of the holy spirit that way.  The finger of God is no more God himself than my finger is me myself. There, above, is your third option.  So, when it says that he (God) is the Father of spirits, it isn't talking about God being the father of his finger, or of HIS holy spirit.   Ed, you are not the father of your finger.  And Ed, yo are not your finger.  As scripture repeatedly says, it is the spirit “of” God. Hi David, I already know that is YOUR opinion, you have expressed it many times, but it does not address the point I make concerning Heb.12:9. There are “only” two (Spirit) positions available in Heb.12:9. This verse allows for no other position of the “HolySpirit”, other than “A” or “B”. A. The “Father of Spirits” is the “HolySpirit”. B. The HolySpirit is one of the “spirits”(?) that the Father of Spirits is the father of.   The evidence points to “A”, what say YOU? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed, which part of what I underlined was “opinion'? –That the holy spirit is like God's finger?  Is that MY opinion? –Is it MY opinion that the holy spirit is the spirit “of” God, or does scripture say this many times? –Or, do you think it's my opinion to say: “The finger of God is no more God himself than my finger is me myself.” WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU REFERRING TO WHEN YOU SAY THAT IS MY “OPINION”?

Hi David,

That the “HolySpirit” isn't(?) God.
Do you have memory problems?

Now will you please address my point of Heb.12:9?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2012,07:43)

Quote Hi David, Are not “JW's” taught that one's spirit dies and stays dead instead of returning to the father? New International Version (©1984) When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing. New Living Translation (©2007) When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them. English Standard Version (©2001) When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish. New American Standard Bible (©1995) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. As scripture says, when the PERSON dies, the spirit, which is something God gives, returns to the true God, who gave it.  In that day, the person's thoughts perish.  They are unconscious.  This is what JW's teach.

Hi David,

Physical plans are all done at death.

But what about the point that Nick made?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[NickHassan]

Hi David,
Ecc 12.7 tells us more about the spirit of men at death

[Author]

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