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shimmer, I agree what Kathie said. One more thing, I said this before, if the Holy Spirit would be a person, then He would be the Father of Jesus. And we all know who the Father of Jesus is, it is not the third person of the trinity….Pierre is right to….Question why did you bring this up?
Some of the statements about God' Holy Spirit can be misleading….There comes in wisdom from God Almighty…..Peace IreneQuote
One more thing, I said this before, if the Holy Spirit would be a person,
then He would be the Father of Jesus.
Hi Irene,You say this, yet you seem at the same time
to have much trouble believing what you say?
(Matthew 1:18 / Matthew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 02 2010,09:48) Quote
One more thing, I said this before, if the Holy Spirit would be a person,
then He would be the Father of Jesus.
Hi Irene,You say this, yet you seem at the same time
to have much trouble believing what you say?
(Matthew 1:18 / Matthew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
What are you referring to???Quote (Baker @ Dec. 02 2010,09:57) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 02 2010,09:48) Quote
One more thing, I said this before, if the Holy Spirit would be a person,
then He would be the Father of Jesus.
Hi Irene,You say this, yet you seem at the same time
to have much trouble believing what you say?
(Matthew 1:18 / Matthew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
What are you referring to???
Hi Irene,HolySpirit is “GOD: The Father” of Jesus Christ! (Click Here)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (shimmer @ Dec. 02 2010,06:31) Kathi those are good verses. I do see what you mean.
You said…
Quote Matt 11:27 NASB
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.Why isn't the Holy Spirit mentioned if He is a separate person?
Why doesn't the Holy Spirit know the Father or the Son?
This is a big reason why I think that the Holy Spirit is a personal intimate part or aspect of the Father and probably the aspect by which the Father is omnipresent.I had thought of a verse which I thought would explain this as the Holy Spirit being separate, but it seems to be saying exactly what you are saying…
1st Corinthians 2:10
But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God's Spirit.But I will still keep thinking and looking into this.
Hi Sis Karmarie and Kathi,
Sorry to interrupt you both. You say that Holy Spirit is not separate person from God the Father right agreed as per O.T scriptures you quoted. But our N.T does vary in its definition of Holy Spirit. Please see these verses ;1. John 14:16 “I will ask the Father to give you another Helper, to be with you always.”
2. John14:26 “26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
3. John 16: “13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.”
John16: ” 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment”
John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.”
Romans 8: “26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.”
The above verses show that Holy Spirit is separate person from Father and Son. But there are other verses that show that Holy Spirit is same as Jesus' Spirit. Here are such verses;
1. “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father” (Gal. 4:6).
2. “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Co 3:17).
3. In the incident of the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip (Acts 8:26-29), the Spirit said unto Philip, “Go near and join thyself to this chariot” (v.29) … “And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the the Lord caught away Philip” (v.39).
4. Acts 16: 7 “When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.”
5. “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Rom 8:8,9).
Here the Holy Spirit is same as Jesus' spirit or spirit of Christ or spirit of sonship.
So what do you say?
Is the Bible variant again on this topic Holy Spirit?Please think over
Love to you
AdamAdam,
You should look at the Jewis point of view of the Spirit of Holiness. It is much what the new testiment writers picture it as if I remember it correctly.
Quote (Baker @ Dec. 02 2010,11:36) Question why did you bring this up?
Hi Irene. I brought it up because I have become interested in the morman faith, not that I want to be a morman or anything, just curious. My neighbours are mormans and they were talking about it and about the Holy Spirit.Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2010,18:24) Adam, You should look at the Jewis point of view of the Spirit of Holiness. It is much what the new testiment writers picture it as if I remember it correctly.
Hi brother Kerwin, Jews don't believe Holy Spirit to be a separate person from God. No where in the O.T it infers Spirit of God (not Holy Spirit as N.T claims) as another Spirit like that of Jesus or Messiah or somebody else. Our N.T supports much like what Trinitarians believe. But you all disagree on that. I find there is truth in Trinitarian arguments. Therefore I reserve my beliefs on Holy Spirit when compared to N.T.Thanks and peace to you
AdamAdam,
I will give you my understanding on the question you asked at the top of this page. The Father and the Son both have a perfect spirit. The Father's spirit unites with the Son's spirit and then that united spirit of the Father and the Son, called the Comforter is a gift from the Father, through the Son and unites with the believer's spirit which once united represents one spirit…and that is how both the Father and the Son dwell within us, by their spirit. It is also how the spirit of Christ intercedes for us to the Spirit of the Father.You are probably aware of the widow lady and her sons. She asked Elisha the prophet how to pay her debt or her sons will be bought as slaves. Well, what happened was this, he took the jar of oil that the lady had and filled borrowed jars till there were no more jars. The oil just kept pouring and pouring and pouring without running out. She was to take the jars of oil and sell the oil to pay her debt. Suppose that the Comforter is like the oil in that first jar that fills other jars and never runs out…it remains in the first jar and flows into all the other jars.
The Holy Spirit is likened to oil in the Bible, btw. Read the story of the ten virgins who were running out of oil in their lamps. Five of them were wise and had immediate access to more oil and five of them did not. The oil was representing the Holy Spirit. Also, the menorah during the first Hanakuh and how there was only enough oil to light it for one day but miraculously the menorah remained lit for 8 days. Our spirit is likened to a lamp and the oil that fills our lamp is likened to the Holy Spirit. That oil is necessary for us to be lit up for Jesus.
So, in the OT, the Holy Spirit would come on some at times to empower them for something specific. Now, after Jesus victory over death, that Spirit is a continually filling of the Spirit filled believer.
You might like to read this:
http://www.endtimepilgrim.org/tenvirg.htmThe 'inner person' of God fills the inner person of man, in that way the Spirit is in the Father and the Son and outside of the Father and the Son all at the same time like the oil in the jar of the widow lady.
I hope that helps
Well written kathi.
Another thing is the Holy Spirit can be grieved or quenched. How do you see this ?
Isnt it sin that grieves or quenches it ?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 03 2010,15:05) Adam,
I will give you my understanding on the question you asked at the top of this page. The Father and the Son both have a perfect spirit. The Father's spirit unites with the Son's spirit and then that united spirit of the Father and the Son, called the Comforter is a gift from the Father, through the Son and unites with the believer's spirit which once united represents one spirit…and that is how both the Father and the Son dwell within us, by their spirit. It is also how the spirit of Christ intercedes for us to the Spirit of the Father.You are probably aware of the widow lady and her sons. She asked Elisha the prophet how to pay her debt or her sons will be bought as slaves. Well, what happened was this, he took the jar of oil that the lady had and filled borrowed jars till there were no more jars. The oil just kept pouring and pouring and pouring without running out. She was to take the jars of oil and sell the oil to pay her debt. Suppose that the Comforter is like the oil in that first jar that fills other jars and never runs out…it remains in the first jar and flows into all the other jars.
The Holy Spirit is likened to oil in the Bible, btw. Read the story of the ten virgins who were running out of oil in their lamps. Five of them were wise and had immediate access to more oil and five of them did not. The oil was representing the Holy Spirit. Also, the menorah during the first Hanakuh and how there was only enough oil to light it for one day but miraculously the menorah remained lit for 8 days. Our spirit is likened to a lamp and the oil that fills our lamp is likened to the Holy Spirit. That oil is necessary for us to be lit up for Jesus.
So, in the OT, the Holy Spirit would come on some at times to empower them for something specific. Now, after Jesus victory over death, that Spirit is a continually filling of the Spirit filled believer.
You might like to read this:
http://www.endtimepilgrim.org/tenvirg.htmThe 'inner person' of God fills the inner person of man, in that way the Spirit is in the Father and the Son and outside of the Father and the Son all at the same time like the oil in the jar of the widow lady.
I hope that helps
Hi Sis Kathi,
Thanks for your good response to my post above. I think you have given good explanation on Holy Spirit. But I am having difficulty in understanding this portion of your post“The Father and the Son both have a perfect spirit. The Father's spirit unites with the Son's spirit and then that united spirit of the Father and the Son, called the Comforter is a gift from the Father, through the Son and unites with the believer's spirit which once united represents one spirit…and that is how both the Father and the Son dwell within us, by their spirit. It is also how the spirit of Christ intercedes for us to the Spirit of the Father.”
How can Father's Spirit and Son's Spirit become one comforter?
Yes you are right in saying that God and Jesus take their abode in a believer as per John 14:23. But I am having difficulty in understanding the logic of sending the Holy Spirit by son from the Father and also Holy Spirit is subordinate to Son as per this verse in John 16:
“13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
So I find Holy Spirit is subordinate to Son as well as Father. He is another person than Father and Son as Trinitarians seem to assume. I am having much difficulty in understanding this strange doctrine of N.T writers when compared to O.T where there is no ambiguity in understanding the Spirit of God as God's own Spirit and His presence.
Thanks and love to you
AdamAdam,
It is true that modern Rabbinic Jews like the writers of the New and Old Testaments disagree with the militiaperson God of the Trinitarians but they do believe that it has “a certain degree of personification while remaining one of God’s attributes, Wikipedia article on Holy Spirit. The New Testament writers are merely expressing this belief by what they teach and so they confuse some. This may be why the Spirit seems to be treated as both a person and also as an attribute of God. God after all is not a human being like us.
I do not know the scriptures from the Old Testament used to support the Rabbinic Jew conclusion on this issue.
I am quite sure the Jews still apply the label of Holy Spirit to the Spirit of God.
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 03 2010,17:44) Another thing is the Holy Spirit can be grieved or quenched. How do you see this ?
Ok before you do, there's no need to answer, I have the answer I should of known and I don't know why I even asked it. It's sin/hardness of heart that seperates us from God and grieves the Holy Spirit.Yahweh was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him in his heart'. -Genesis 6:6
'But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit' -Isaiah 63:10
'When he had looked around at them with anger, being grieved at the hardening of their hearts, he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored as healthy as the other'. – Mark 3:5
'Therefore, even as the Holy Spirit says, “Today if you will hear his voice, don't harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested me by proving me, and saw my works for forty years'. Therefore I was displeased with that generation, and said, 'They always err in their heart, but they didn't know my ways;' as I swore in my wrath, 'They will not enter into my rest.'”
Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today;” lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end: while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, don't harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” – Hebrews 3:7Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 02 2010,15:45) 5. “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Rom 8:8,9). Here the Holy Spirit is same as Jesus' spirit or spirit of Christ or spirit of sonship.
Adam……..Let me paraphrase this.5………> So then they that are in the flesh (flesh minded)cannot please GOD: But you are not in the flesh (flesh minded) , but in the Spirit (Spirit Minded) , if so be that the Spirit (intellect) of GOD dwell in you> Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ (the anointing Spirit of GOD) , He is none of his.
Here the Holy Spirit is the same Spirit (intellect) which is the SPIRIT of Christ or (The Anointing) and It is the Spirit (intellect) of Sonship. Which cried aba aba Father (in) Jesus The Anointed and Cries aba aba Father also (in) us also.
Just that simple brother IMO.
peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………..gene
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 03 2010,05:41) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 03 2010,17:44) Another thing is the Holy Spirit can be grieved or quenched. How do you see this ?
Ok before you do, there's no need to answer, I have the answer I should of known and I don't know why I even asked it. It's sin/hardness of heart that seperates us from God and grieves the Holy Spirit.Yahweh was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him in his heart'. -Genesis 6:6
'But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit' -Isaiah 63:10
'When he had looked around at them with anger, being grieved at the hardening of their hearts, he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored as healthy as the other'. – Mark 3:5
'Therefore, even as the Holy Spirit says, “Today if you will hear his voice, don't harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested me by proving me, and saw my works for forty years'. Therefore I was displeased with that generation, and said, 'They always err in their heart, but they didn't know my ways;' as I swore in my wrath, 'They will not enter into my rest.'”
Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today;” lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end: while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, don't harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” – Hebrews 3:7
Hi Shimmer,
Good for you, I'm glad you found your answer!Maybe the Holy Spirit is 'an intimate part of the Father'.
I remember reading in two seperate writings of the early church that this is true, and also that the Holy Spirit was known as the Angel of the Lord, Wisdom and the Word.
If I remember right.
I should try and find them, the writings.
Yeah, one was Justin Martyr. Quoting Him……
“I shall give you another testimony, my friends, from the Scriptures, that God begot before all creatures a Beginning,[who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun).”
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