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Hi Ed
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2010,10:07) 1) Your point is all sons of Adam are sons of God! 2) (1)My point was the Holy Spirit is involved in every conception (2)yet not all born from Adam are sons of God
3) Therefore your point that Jesus conception is proof that the Holy Spirit is Jesus Father is a moot point!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
Hi WJ,1) My point was that we were “All” created in God's image.
Thus we are all born as (in essence) Son's of God.
Not so Ed, for in essence we were born without the “Image of God” because of the fall all men are born in sin and under the curse. Sons of God are not under the curse. The image of God was lost in the fall and we were all by nature “children of wrath” and “disobedience”. Eph 2:3, Col 3:6 2 Pet 2:14, 1 John 3:10Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
But because we have 'all' eaten of 'the forbidden fruit',
at that point in time, satan became father to those who have indulged.
That is why we “All” MUST “Repent” returning to our former estate.
We were all born eating the fruit because it was in our nature.Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58) 1Cor.15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection
of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Exactly, Jesus the Second Adam is the beginning of a New Creation of sons of God who are created in the image and likeness of Jesus. Rom 8:29, 1 Cor 3:18, Col 3:10,Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
1Cor.15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things
are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him
that put all things under him, that God (HolySpirit) may be all in all.
I don’t think that the Apostle Paul would appreciate you injecting the “Holy Spirit” in the text.
Paul could have as easily done that if that was what he is saying. but Paul understands that the Holy Spirit is subject to Jesus at this time, and not that he will subject himself to the Holy Spirit, because all authority and power is given to him, Jesus (Matt 28:18, 19)! Mk 1:8, Lk 3:16, John 1:33, 14:26, 15:26, 16:13-15, 20:22, Rev 22:1Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
Eph.4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Let’s quote it in context…There is one body, and “one Spirit” (not one father), even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ehp 4:4-6 I do not think Paul is being redundant, do you?
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
2) You have a yes/no here that needs explaining. 1=yes 2=No.
1. My point was the Holy Spirit is involved in every conception Yes, True —> Job 33:42. Not all born from Adam are sons of God Yes, True—> John 1:12, Eph 2:3, Col 3:6 2 Pet 2:14, 1 John 3:10
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
3) Jesus was the “Only” “begotten Son of God”, (Luke 1:35)
meaning Jesus direct Father was “HolySpirit”(GOD). (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20)
Why do you downplay this very important “Bible Truth”=117; calling it…'a moot point'?
Okay, since you are having a little trouble understanding me let’s look at it another way!Let’s assume that your view is correct and the Holy Spirit is the Father.
“The (Father) hath made me “, and the breath of “the (Father) hath given me life “. Job 33:4
Why doesn’t the Father call them Sons since he is the cause of their conception and created them in the womb?
Jesus already existed with the Father as Spirit, and his Body was created through conception!So how about this one?
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and “in sin did my mother conceive me“. Ps 51:5
Notice that the mother here conceived him! So the mother was also involved in conception.
SO DOES THAT MEAN THAT SHE IS THE FATHER OF DAVID?
Clearly conception doesn’t determine sons of God!
Jesus Sonship with the Father is not based on his conception no more than any other man that is conceived by God through the procreation of man\woman!We have been born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:3-6), but scriptures teach us that our sonship is by adoption! Rom 8:15, 9:4, Gal 4:5, Eph 5:1
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
Also waiting for you to answer my previous question: Forth Post from the top Located here
I know and as I said I will respond in my own time.Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
We can be reborn from above like Jesus at the Jordan and if we are led by the Spirit of God become sons of God.[Jn3, Gal5]The amazing Spirit of God proceeds from God and is not another person-that is silly.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2010,07:13)
Hi Ed,Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2010,10:58) 1) My point was that we were “All” created in God's image.
Thus we are all born as (in essence) Son's of God.
But because we have 'all' eaten of 'the forbidden fruit'
Not so Ed, for in essence we were born without the “Image of God” because of the fall all men are born in sin and under the curse. Eph 2:3, Col 3:6 2 Pet 2:14, 1 John 3:10Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,I have previously said that all have eaten of the forbidden fruit, that is NOT in question!
The point I made that you apparently disagree with is
Were we born “in God's image”? I say yes while you say no.
None of these verses you have supplies support your assertions 'at Birth we were not (supposedly) born in God's image'?Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Newborns don't have conversations.Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Newborns take a while before they learn(the Tree) to be disobedient.2 Pet 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;
beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
It takes Newborns a LONG time for this to occur.1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
It takes newborns a LONG time for this to occur.You may believe any weird think you like, but if you wish
to convince others of your assertions, “You need Proof!
And this is NO PROOF at all.Here is proof I offer to you: that we were INDEED created in God's image…
Gen:1:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.Gen:5:1: This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen:5:3: And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness,
after his image; and called his name Seth:Gen:9:6: Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
1Cor:11:7: For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
You can continue to believe as you like, but these verses
support my assertion,
while the verses you supplied don't support your assertions.Hope you will reconsider.
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2010,07:13) Hi Ed Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
1Cor.15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things
are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him
that put all things under him, that God (HolySpirit) may be all in all.
I don’t think that the Apostle Paul would appreciate you injecting the “Holy Spirit” in the text.Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,What you 'think' makes no difference.
Ed J
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2010,07:13) Hi Ed Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
Eph.4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Let’s quote it in context…There is one body, and “one Spirit” ((1)not one father), even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ehp 4:4-6 (2)I do not think Paul is being redundant, do you?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,(1) you are clearly denying the text.
(2) Explain what you mean.
Ed J
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2010,07:13) Hi Ed, Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
3) Jesus was the “Only” “begotten Son of God”, (Luke 1:35)
meaning Jesus direct Father was “HolySpirit”(GOD). (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20)
Why do you downplay this very important “Bible Truth”=117; calling it…'a moot point'?
Okay, since you are having a little trouble understanding me let’s look at it another way!1) Let’s assume that your view is correct and the Holy Spirit is the Father.
2) “The (Father) hath made me “, and the breath of “the (Father) hath given me life “. Job 33:43) Why doesn’t the Father call them Sons since he is the cause of their conception and created them in the womb?
4) Jesus already existed with the Father as Spirit,
5) and his Body was created through conception!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,1) “Truth” is a Good assumption.
1Cor.13:7 (Charity)Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
2) Good supporting evidence!3) Please explain this in more detail.
4) Yes; we all have too.
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.5) Yes, but what are you implying by this.
Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2010,07:13) Hi Ed So how about this one?
1) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and “in sin did my mother conceive me”. Ps 51:5
2) Notice that the mother here conceived him!
3) So the mother was also involved in conception.4) SO DOES THAT MEAN THAT SHE IS THE FATHER OF DAVID?
5) Clearly conception doesn’t determine sons of God!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,1) Was his mother raped; what do you know of the writers birth?
2) Yes
3) Yes Yes4) Who is the birth father? Who is the “She”?
5) The question is: “Who's image were we born as” I say God's!
You are now presenting something here entirely different
from my assertion.Ed J
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2010,07:13) Hi Ed 1) Clearly conception doesn’t determine sons of God!
2) Jesus Sonship with the Father is not based on his conception
3) no more than any other man
4) that is conceived by God through the procreation of man\woman!
5) We have been born again by the Spirit of God.
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
Also waiting for you to answer my previous question: Forth Post from the top Located here
6) I know and as I said I will respond in my own time.Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,You didn't follow my suggestion of only one question,
because of this there is much confusion in your post.
I have broke it down to get more out of our discussion.
Is this now a new topic you wish to discuss?1) “CLEARLY” your wording is inconclusive and ambiguous.
1A) Spiritual conception “DOES” determine “Son's of God”.
1B) Physical conception doesn’t determine “Sons of God”.
You may believe that you said (1B), but you did NOT!2) You make a assumption I call “FALSE”!
I have offered you PROOF your assumption is false.
You offer NO proof of your assertion, 'only' 'WJ logic',
which I can prove to be faulty!3) Now you present another yes/no; Explain.
Are you now saying Jesus birth is NO different than
any other with all that implies(sounds like Jody's assertions).4) This is very ambiguous, and you need to explain it in great detail.
5) There a lot that this has not happened to yet.
6) Seems other responses you make are more worthy to you.
Rom:2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed
John says
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
If God is the Holy Spirit, the Father of Jesus, like you say- these verses dont quite make sense with that. Im just getting all confused now ?
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 03 2010,21:30) Hi Ed John says
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
If God is the Holy Spirit, the Father of Jesus, like you say- these verses dont quite make sense with that. Im just getting all confused now ?
Hi Karmarie,Don't remain confused I will explain how it happened for you.
Jesus retuns back to “God The Father”(HolySpirit) in Heaven after the removal of satan
(successfully removed) from “The Godhead” at the crucifixion of Jesus, immediately after Jesus' death. (READ Isaiah 14:19)
Once Jesus returned to heaven, Jesus then sends the “HolySpirit” in “God The Fathers” behalf (Isaiah 64:4-5) and
“God The Father”=117 sends “Jesus Christ”(now in Spirit Form(Heb.9:28)) in behalf Jesus along with the HolySpirit
back to Earth to dwell in ALL Christian Believers starting on the day of “Pentecost”=117!This “Bible Truth”=117 can be verified using two Bible verses…
Jesus return: Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look
for him (as the 120 in the upper room) shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.Jesus' Father's arrival(HolySpirit): Isaiah 64:4-5 For since the beginning of the world
men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God(HolySpirit),
beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. Thou meetest him that rejoiceth
and worketh righteousness (as the 120 in the upper room), those that remember thee in thy ways:
behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.Further Proof…
“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, known as [117=יהוה האלהים](JEHOVAH GOD)!Still more Proof…
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father(HolySpirit) will love him, and we(HolySpirit + Jesus Christ: Jesus “Second Coming”)
will come unto him(All Believers just like on Pentecost: who look for Jesus without sin), and [we will make our abode with him].
Eph.4:6 ONE God and Father OF ALL(“HolySpirit“), who is above all, and through all, AND IN YOU ALL.The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distraction of spirit.2Chron:16:9: For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth,
to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him…
Zech.3:9: For behold the stone (Rev.2:17) that I have laid before Joshua; upon
one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof,
saith the LORD of Hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Psalm 118:24: This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2010,22:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2010,07:13) Hi Ed Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
Eph.4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Let’s quote it in context…There is one body, and “one Spirit” ((1)not one father), even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ehp 4:4-6 (2)I do not think Paul is being redundant, do you?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,(1) you are clearly denying the text.
(2) Explain what you mean.
Ed J
EdYou are clearly adding to the text!
Blessings WJ
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 03 2010,05:30) Hi Ed John says
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
If God is the Holy Spirit, the Father of Jesus, like you say- these verses dont quite make sense with that. Im just getting all confused now ?
KEd claims that those apposed to his doctrine are confusing but as you can see it is his doctrine that is very confusing! IMO
Blessings WJ
Karmie, scripture say, holy spirit is in us, God is in Us and Christ is in us, THEY ARE ONE! ED QUOTTED; THE SAVIOR IS GOD THE FATHER. But scripture tells us there is no other name under heaven(christ) (I'll find it if need be)by which you must be saved. He is our Lord God.
katjo
Ed, im going to answer your post on Rev. Busy right now. But I will get to it this evening.
katjo
To TRINITARIANS………..GOD the FATHER is (SPIRIT) .
John 4:24….> God is a SPIRIT: And they that worship (HIM) must worship (HIM) in spirit and truth.
Jesus was correct saying the (FATHER) GOD was (IN) HIM, He was, via His (GOD”S) SPIRIT Which is the FATHER. .
The problem with you TRINITARIANS is you believe that because GOD indwells a person that makes them a individual GOD, so you worship the person the FATHER is (IN) as if HE were A GOD HIMSELF. That is the main error of your teachings. GOD the FATHER can (INDWELL) or be in (ALL) His creation and none of that would make them a GOD. Believe Jesus when He Said “FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. And believe GOD the FATHER when HE Sid there are (NO) other GODS Besides ME , He said He looked and found NON> When are you going to believe what is written clearly.
Gene,
Worst than that – Their arguments sway from side to side as the wind of truth blusters them about.
I have yet to see a composite precise of what they believe – tehy won't do it because it will expose their flawed arguments.
They hide away in convoluted and contaminated thinking even though they well know that they are wrong.
TT, in particular, cannot hold a straight line argument, he swaggers around like a drunk person and uses counter measures that only an innocent child would fall for.
His responses are sometimes boobytrapped like changing words or accssing “YOU” of saying something (The YOU means all no-trinitarians but he conveniently ignores the fact that non-trinitarian is a catch-word for NOT Trinitarian – Not all NON-Trini's speak teh same gospel phylosophy so you can't lump them together under one “YOU”. but this way he will fool the unwary!)
Watch out for his using scriptures out of context – that often throws the unwary.
And please – watch out when he is accidentally forced to speak the truth – it is easy to deny what he says thinking he must be speaking falsely – you will set yourself up in a trap for later if you do that.Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 04 2010,05:39) Gene, Worst than that – Their arguments sway from side to side as the wind of truth blusters them about.
I have yet to see a composite precise of what they believe – tehy won't do it because it will expose their flawed arguments.
They hide away in convoluted and contaminated thinking even though they well know that they are wrong.
TT, in particular, cannot hold a straight line argument, he swaggers around like a drunk person and uses counter measures that only an innocent child would fall for.
His responses are sometimes boobytrapped like changing words or accssing “YOU” of saying something (The YOU means all no-trinitarians but he conveniently ignores the fact that non-trinitarian is a catch-word for NOT Trinitarian – Not all NON-Trini's speak teh same gospel phylosophy so you can't lump them together under one “YOU”. but this way he will fool the unwary!)
Watch out for his using scriptures out of context – that often throws the unwary.
And please – watch out when he is accidentally forced to speak the truth – it is easy to deny what he says thinking he must be speaking falsely – you will set yourself up in a trap for later if you do that.
Well, W.J. does a good job with Scriptures, but He just can't understand that the trinity is a man made doctrine. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who in the second century came up with. It is not of God, but of man. You and others have given all Scriptures to prove our point. Tertullian was born in A.D. 155 by Pagan Parents. It is said that the trinity is His best achievement that He did for Christianity. Mainstream Christianity does teach it. “And in vain do they worship Me, teaching the doctrine the commandment of man.”
Math. 15:9
But the tread is about the Spirit. If the Spirit of God would be a person, then He would be the Father of Jesus. And we know that is not so. I feel like I am hashing all over and over again….
IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2010,02:53) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2010,22:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2010,07:13) Hi Ed Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 01 2010,18:58)
Eph.4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Let’s quote it in context…There is one body, and “one Spirit” ((1)not one father), even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ehp 4:4-6 (2)I do not think Paul is being redundant, do you?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,(1) you are clearly denying the text.
(2) Explain what you mean.
Ed J
EdYou are clearly adding to the text!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,1) Isn't the part I numbered as (1) and emboldened: what 'you' added to the text?
Why would it would bother you if I added to the clarity to the text,
especially if you attempt to do this as well; is not that 'hypocritical'?2) Also your comment is NOT an explanation of what did you mean by…
'I do not think Paul is being redundant'ED J
Quote (katjo @ Feb. 04 2010,03:36) Karmie, scripture say, holy spirit is in us, God is in Us and Christ is in us, THEY ARE ONE! ED QUOTTED; THE SAVIOR IS GOD THE FATHER.
But scripture tells us(? SEE BOTTOM) there is no other name under heaven(christ) (I'll find it if need be)by which you must be saved. He is our Lord God.katjo
Hi Katjo,Babylon means: “Confusion” and Zerubbabel means: “Coming out of Confusion” (the removing of confusion)!
Jesus’ authentic Name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name is not vocalized
in the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע] and is) the salvation of “GOD the Father”=117.
[יהשוע] “Jesus” “REAL NAME” therefore authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)(Phil. 2:9,11: Wherefore [Holy Spirit=151] has highly exalted [Jesus=74] giving Him a name
which is above every name, to the glory of [GOD The Father=117].) Neither is there salvation
in any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must be
saved. (Acts 4:12) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă
means: “YÄ is Savior”. The Name of [GOD=26] is [יהוה=26] spoken as [YÄ=26]; and “YÄ-hä-vā”!You conveniently left out: “to the glory of God the Father” “The Subject” of: “WHO IT IS DOING THE SAVING“!
“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=”יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
And He is Savior to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)I hope this more complete information helps to remove 'your' Confusion brought about by…
(SEE BOTTOM): The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], AND the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!
Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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