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Gene wrote:
Quote None of what you quoted disagree with what i posted, our “earthly” flesh and blood bodies can not go into the kingdom of GOD , so you assume no body can, that is your error
That is not my assumption since I am the one that mentioned that Jesus was resurrected in an incorruptible body.
My actual point is that according to the scriptures I quoted the body and soul are separate parts and one is not part of the others as you seem to be claiming.
I suppose it can be said that a person possesses both a body and a soul unless that person happens to be a ghost in which case they do not have a body. I do not know if it is correct to say a person posses a soul since I believe a soul is the person.
Since I believe you are still confusing spirit and soul I will point out that a person that has no spirit would be equivalent to a vegetable as you would have no temperament and no outlook. I am not sure that ever occurs but perhaps early in ones development or after certain accidents that put the victim in a vegetative state. There is the argument that the spirit gives life.
Hi KW,
He showed his damaged corruptible body of bones and flesh [lk 24]and with wounds still visible to his brothers[jn20]. The fulfillment of scripture was that his flesh would not corrupt [Acts2.31]He is not still in that worn out one but a new imperishable like to the angels[Dan7] and neither will his brothers be so dressed when they are raised [1cor15].
Kerwin……Where is any scripture that say a Soul is external of a BODY. I have not found one so far. What i have found is that Scripture says when GOD Breathe Spirit life into the Body (THEN) Man BECAME a LIVING SOUL. ” what knows a man except the spirit (intellect) within Him”. Nick said the fulfillment of scripture was that his flesh would not corrupt, actual it says His flesh will not (SEE) corruption. Jesus showed His Body he was buried with and as far as i know He still has it, no where does it say it changed it could have i don't know but it could not have been both flesh AND Blood because it says Flesh and Blood can not enter the kingdom of Heaven, but flesh and Bone? Jesus did say we would be as the angles and Angles do have bodies , what Kind i am not sure of. I have not seen any scripture that shows the Spirit, the Body, the Soul, as three separate things, I have seen Spirit and Body as separable, but when that happens that SOUL combination has perished and no longer exists a SOUL. So as it says “this Perishable must put on imperishable and that will not happen till a New Body is given us and Spirit is add back into it. I believe there is a perishable Body and there is an Imperishable one. But without a Body and Spirit in it there is no SOUL. IMO
gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2009,18:21) Gene,Oct. wrote:Nick………Salvation ofthe SOUL includes both body and Spirit. because that is what a Soul is, Body + Spirit = Soul
gene
This is what is written and it does not agree with what you are writing. Can you explain the discrepancies?1 Corinthians 15:42-57(NIV) reads:
Quote So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
Paul…….Is describing the difference between the Perishable man and the nonperishable man. One has a body that comes from Man through genes, as one gives life to another this flesh process has continued from Adam the First all the way to us all, it is a (flesh) body and subject to corruption, as scripture says, However we have bodies we will recieve for our Heaven FATHER that will never Parish, But non the Less they (ARE) bodies, The term Spiritual bodies is showing this difference in the bodies we have and will have, One comes into existence through Man the other comes into existence though the works of Spirit, But they both are Bodies. Because a SOUL must consist of a BODY + SPIRIT in it. IMOgene
Gene wrote:
Quote Where is any scripture that say a Soul is external of a BODY.
There are a number of scriptures that treat the body and soul as too separate elements. In addition it is also clear from scripture that the flesh passes away while the soul does not. Do you forget the Witch of Endor who summoned the ghost of Samuel? The ghost had no flesh and was only perceived by the witch herself who had the ability to see him. Peter stated he lived in the tent of his body. Samuel no longer lived in his tent when the Witch summoned him.
You may be correct that the Spirit is what gives the soul as well as the body life. I am not sure as the body perishes and the soul continues to live.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 01 2009,02:07) Hi KW,
He showed his damaged corruptible body of bones and flesh [lk 24]and with wounds still visible to his brothers[jn20]. The fulfillment of scripture was that his flesh would not corrupt [Acts2.31]He is not still in that worn out one but a new imperishable like to the angels[Dan7] and neither will his brothers be so dressed when they are raised [1cor15].
I am the opinion that you are misunderstanding what I wrote. Our current bodies are corruptible because they can die. Jesus did die. The body we will be given will not be able to die. Jesus could not die after he was resurrected which is why obviously lethal wounds did not kill him.Kerwin…..The word (GHOST) is really spirit and is mistranslated in others scriptures also. The Witch of Endor saw nothing, they only heard a voice that God sent, scripture say that “when a man dies his thoughts PARISH”, so obviously that was not really Samuel Speaking. Please show where there is a SOUL in SCRIPTURE operating out side of a body, or where the body passes away but the soul keeps on going. If there are many i would like to know where they are Please list then if you can i do not know of any that do. If that were true then Jesus could not have said “fear him who can destory (BOTH) Body and Soul, (IN THE GRAVE). The reason God could destory them both is because they both can not live without the other, they both can parish in the grave. Not separate of one another. Because a Soul must incorporate a BODY in order to be a Soul. Man became a SOUL when GOD breathe spirit into the Body, not before, GOD did not take a soul and put it into a body, He breathe spirit into the body and the Man became a living soul, is the way i understand what it says. IMO
gene
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2009,22:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 01 2009,02:07) Hi KW,
He showed his damaged corruptible body of bones and flesh [lk 24]and with wounds still visible to his brothers[jn20]. The fulfillment of scripture was that his flesh would not corrupt [Acts2.31]He is not still in that worn out one but a new imperishable like to the angels[Dan7] and neither will his brothers be so dressed when they are raised [1cor15].
I am the opinion that you are misunderstanding what I wrote. Our current bodies are corruptible because they can die. Jesus did die. The body we will be given will not be able to die. Jesus could not die after he was resurrected which is why obviously lethal wounds did not kill him.
Hi KW,
The body was perishable and already damaged but did not rot by the work of God to fulfill prophecy and establish his claim to be the Son of God[Rom1]Jesus is not still in a battered torn perishable body and neither will we be when he returns and we are raised alike to him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 02 2009,01:31) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2009,22:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 01 2009,02:07) Hi KW,
He showed his damaged corruptible body of bones and flesh [lk 24]and with wounds still visible to his brothers[jn20]. The fulfillment of scripture was that his flesh would not corrupt [Acts2.31]He is not still in that worn out one but a new imperishable like to the angels[Dan7] and neither will his brothers be so dressed when they are raised [1cor15].
I am the opinion that you are misunderstanding what I wrote. Our current bodies are corruptible because they can die. Jesus did die. The body we will be given will not be able to die. Jesus could not die after he was resurrected which is why obviously lethal wounds did not kill him.
Hi KW,
The body was perishable and already damaged but did not rot by the work of God to fulfill prophecy and establish his claim to be the Son of God[Rom1]Jesus is not still in a battered torn perishable body and neither will we be when he returns and we are raised alike to him.
I agree that Jesus' body did not rot but was instead transformed from a perishable body to an nonperishable one after he perished. In this way Jesus was resurrected.I believe Lazarus was resurrected in a different way since it appears he had a perishable body after his resurrection.
Jesus may still bear his wounds according to Revelations.
Revelations 5:6(KJV) reads:
Quote And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Still, Revelations is symbolic and so taking something literally is of questionable accuracy.
Hi KW,
So the flesh and bones body with holes in it is his new body?
It is what we can expect too?Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom[1Cor15]
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 02 2009,00:18) Kerwin…..The word (GHOST) is really spirit and is mistranslated in others scriptures also. The Witch of Endor saw nothing, they only heard a voice that God sent, scripture say that “when a man dies his thoughts PARISH”, so obviously that was not really Samuel Speaking. Please show where there is a SOUL in SCRIPTURE operating out side of a body, or where the body passes away but the soul keeps on going. If there are many i would like to know where they are Please list then if you can i do not know of any that do. If that were true then Jesus could not have said “fear him who can destory (BOTH) Body and Soul, (IN THE GRAVE). The reason God could destory them both is because they both can not live without the other, they both can parish in the grave. Not separate of one another. Because a Soul must incorporate a BODY in order to be a Soul. Man became a SOUL when GOD breathe spirit into the Body, not before, GOD did not take a soul and put it into a body, He breathe spirit into the body and the Man became a living soul, is the way i understand what it says. IMO gene
Scripture states the witch saw Elohim that looked like Samuel but that Saul did not see him. It does seem that Saul heard him but I am not sure if the voice was channeled through the witch or not.Samuel acted as if he was disturbed from his rest.
That is the only account I know in scripture of a ghost. The other accounts are when the disciples though Jesus and later Peter were ghosts. I both those cases they were mistaken.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 02 2009,01:58) Hi KW,
So the flesh and bones body with holes in it is his new body?
It is what we can expect too?Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom[1Cor15]
It is not an important issue to me. I do see why it may be regarded as a badge of honor by some.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 02 2009,13:21) Hi KW,
Will you be the guy with holes in his tunic?
I do not know. I will be content to let God decide.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 02 2009,23:32) Hi KW,
The holes were in flesh.
The NEW BODY will be a heavenly one.
The new body will still have flesh but the flesh will be of an imperishable type. The angels have an imperishable type of flesh though it may not be like what we will have.Nick………..Jesus ascended into heaven in a (flesh body) it was not spirit, itself, that ascended , it was Spirit in a body, AS Jesus (PLAINLY) Said, a Spirit does (NOT) have FLESH and (BONE) as you see i have, that was right after he went through the door and stood among them. I do believe Jesus was in the Kingdom of God, Don't you, you said flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of GOD , That is true, flesh and bone, can not either, but then again, the Kingdom of GOD comes (into) flesh without observation it says. God's Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom , but can exist in flesh and bone or blood as far as that goes. You assume that When Jesus said Flesh and Blood can not go (into) the kingdom of GOD he was speaking Physically going into it , yes, no physical thing can (GO) into the kingdom of GOD, But the Kingdom of GOD (CAN) go into it. Another words God is SPIRIT and can be in the Person and then His kingdom is also in Him. That GOD may be in (ALL) and through (ALL). Jesus never said the kingdom of GOD could not be (IN) a flesh and blood person did He? While it is impossible for flesh and blood to enter the kingdom of GOD, it is not impossible for the kingdom of God to be in HIM is it? So much assumptions so little understanding, the source of confusion and MYSTERY RELIGIONS. IMO
gene
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