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Hi,
Yes it is JW theology to call the Spirit of God FORCE but it is more than that.
AS the finger of God the Spirit manifests God in all his powers and graces in and among His creation.I fear I am not making myself clear as there is I think some confusion. I suppose I should have stated myself more clearly from the start. Let me attempt that now.
Jesus = man, second adam, chosen lamb etc. but just man.
Father = GOD
Holy (set apart) Spirit = The SON OF GOD. (possibly the angel of the lord as well and many other titles in scripture. since angels are also sons of god this would seem correct. what makes the HS set apart is that he is unique among the angels or spirits because god chose him to be, much as he did jesus.)God created through his son the HS all things. At some point the HS left his glory and took up residence in Jesus, the chosen vessel making him our messiah and the first fleshly son of god. We too have become sons of god when we are indwelt by the spirit of god. Some of the scrips that seem to saythis are:
Gen 1:
1In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth. … and the SPIRIT OF GOD was moving over the surface of the waters.John 1
1In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD, and the WORD was GOD. 2HE was in the beginning with GOD.1 John 1
1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life– 2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us–1 John 2:13
13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginningProverbs 8:27
“When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,Colossians 1:17
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.From John we see clearly that he identifies his writing EXACTLY with genesis 1. And in each case he points to the FATHER and someone else. He calls him the word and life. Proverbs also points to God and someone else, in this case wisdom. The bible says that jesus had LIFE in him. what was that life? It was the spirit! As John says the WORD OF LIFE was there at the beginning.
And we see in gen 1 clearly WHO was there giving life to all. It was god through his Spirit.
As I said before, if the Spirit was there creating as gods arm, he must also be gods SON because it wold negate Col 1 otherwise.
I hope that clears things up. If anyone can show me a scripture that points out someone else creating in gen I would love to see it but I have not. This also fits with why jesus said he would send the one that abided already with them. It was the spirit of God in Jesus. Life was IN JESUS because the SPIRIT IS LIFE.
God Bless
JeffSo basically,
In the beginning was THE SPIRIT OF GOD and the SPIRIT OF GOD was with God and The SPIRIT OF GOD was God.
This fits based on Genesis 1 perfectly.
The spirit is life, wisdom, power, word etc. Or again:
1 John 1
1What was from the beginning, … concerning the SPIRIT OF GOD– 2and the life (spirit) was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us–Jesus the man was not eternal, but the spirit was!
Nick,
its not logic, its what scripture plainly says. The words jesus spoke came FROM the father. How did he put them there? By the spirit as it says. Truth is logical, otherwise we would all believe in the trinity!
And no the spirit is not apart from God, it is OF god. Nick, you still have not addressed my question. If you would, I would appreciate it.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
So you have convinced yourself of this?
God was in Christ and Christ is in God.Scripture does not say the Spirit is a son of God.
Logic is of man.scripture says the Angels are spirits. they are also called sons of god. The HS is a set apart spirit.
God was in Jesus by the HS is what the bible plainly shows.
We have the evidence of the NT authors that there were 2 at the start and we have gen that says the same. No logic is needed here. The bible plainly states what is. I havent seen any passage offered to say otherwise despite my asking. If you have some please let me know.
Jeff
Quote (wisslewj @ Sep. 07 2009,11:49) scripture says the Angels are spirits. they are also called sons of god. The HS is a set apart spirit. God was in Jesus by the HS is what the bible plainly shows.
We have the evidence of the NT authors that there were 2 at the start and we have gen that says the same. No logic is needed here. The bible plainly states what is. I havent seen any passage offered to say otherwise despite my asking. If you have some please let me know.
Jeff
Hello, The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. It is not apart from the Father. Just like Wisdom, patience are all essence of God the Father. We receive Gods Holy Spirit at Baptism when the Minister lays Hands on us. Without God;s Holy Spirit we could not understand the things of God. If Gods Holy S[irit would be apart from the Father, we would not be one with God and all those who have God's Holy Spirit. Peasce and Love IreneQuote Holy (set apart) Spirit = The SON OF GOD. . . .
God created through his son the HS all things.–jeff
Jeff, in the Greek Scriptures (New Testament) where Jesus is mentioned often, is he mentioned as being God's holy spirit?
JOHN 1:32
“John also bore witness, saying: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him.”Jesus was on earth. Did Jesus, while on earth, come down out of heaven and remain upon himself?
LUKE 3:21,22
“Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spiritin bodily shape like a dove came down upon him,[Jesus]”In scripture, Jesus is NOT the holy spirit. They are separate, distinct.
In scripture, the holy spirit is something God possesses. It is also called his finger, and arm.
It is something he uses to accomplish his will.It is not Jesus.
Cindy, I am not saying the HS is apart from the father.
David, I think you are still not understanding what I am saying. I am NOT saying that Jesus IS the Holy Spirit. Jesus of Nazareth was a man, the second Adam.
When the HS came upon Him he became the God-Man.
Jesus = man
Spirit = SON
Father = GODWhen he was baptised it says he was filled with the HS and with power. Prior he did not have that. He was man. A chosen man (even an annointed man) to be the savior but I think still a man. When the Spirit of God which I think is the SON by the scrips I had posted came into him, he became the Christ or messiah with God in him through the spirit.
So Jesus is NOT the HS. Jesus is NOT the father. The Father is NOT the HS. The SON (HS) is the spiritual representation of the father. Jesus would be the flesh representation of the father.
Remember there are spiritual realms as well as physical. God would have had to have SOME manifestation in the spiritual realm. After all he is INVISIBLE. Since all matter, both gross and spiritual is CREATED, he cannot BE any of it precisely. He can only manifest into it in some way. I am certain that he manifested into not only the physical as Jesus but the spiritual as the HS. And per those scrips the HS is the pre incarnate Son Of God.
Hi Jeff,
As Irene says the Spirit is of the Father.
Without the Father sending out His Spirit the Spirit would be unknown.
God did not beget a son called His Spirit as that would divide the Father from His Spirit as a son.The Spirit PROCEEDS from God[ jn 15.26]
Jesus PROCEEDED from God[ Jn8.42]
Nick,
Yes the spirit proceeds from god. He is OF the father yes. And as we see at Jesus baptism the same Spirit took up flesh IN Jesus. So,
John 8:42
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.Jesus here is talking by way of the sprit. He said that the words he speaks are as they are given to him. So we can easily say,
John 8:42
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me (HS): for I(HS) came forth and am come from God; for neither have I(HS) come of myself, but he (God) sent me.As stated Prv 8 shows the spirit came from the father. and he was at the creation in gen. If he isnt the son there is contradiction.
We see another example of the above in John 14,
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
The father abides in jesus through the HS, just as in us. And the works are done BY the HS, just as in us.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you.
Jesus here is talking via the HS. The HS dwelt IN jesus and WITH them but would come into them at pentecost and notice it says I WILL COME.
Also, noone yet has adressed gen 1 and john 1. In both we see God and another entity, the Spirit and the word. If they are not the same we have a contradiction.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Yes the Spirit of God was in Jesus doing the works and can be in us.
God is at work in you to will and to do.[Phil2]WL………The spirit is not of GOD it is GOD, and as you say (It) makes us son as it did Jesus. It is the seed of GOD himself that abides in those who have it, like it says “for his seed abides in you”. Remember Jesus said GOD is a SPIRIT, There are seven spirits of GOD and Jesus has all seven in HIM as shown in REVELATIONS. These seven spirits go out into all the earth as it also says. WE have been give the earnest of the Spirit, Jesus has the fullness of it. We to can grow to the full stature of Christ as scripture says. I see where you are coming from by saying the Spirit is the son though, for indeed it does produce God's Children. It is good that you realize that Jesus was born a man, who became the son upon Baptism of Spirit. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Nick………Read revelations and you will see there are (SEVEN) SPIRITS (intellects) of GOD. And Jesus has all seven of them as scripture says, your disagreement is with scripture not me. IMO
peace and love…………………gene
G,
There are many gifts and a variety of good fruits but the Spirit of God is one.
I think you mean seven angels[Heb1]Nick………Show scripture where it say there are only (ONE) Spirit of GOD. ALL the SPIRITS (intellects)of GOD are SPIRIT. Spirit is a general term for INTELLECTS, And these Spirit (intellects) are expressed in Word, as Jesus said “the words i am telling you (they) ARE Spirit and life”.WE are also told toe TRY the (SPIRITS) Plural to see if (they) are from GOD. Many Spirits (INTELLECTS) (ONE) GOD who is composed of SEVEN HOLY SPIRITS. Or intellects. IMO
peace and love…………………gene
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