The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You said to forget the trinity.
It is not in the bible so a good choice
But you still love the label of trinitarian?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2008,18:55)

Hi WJ, You said to forget the trinity. It is not in the bible so a good choice But you still love the label of trinitarian?

NH

You obviously dont read the post.

Can you show me where I even mentioned the word “Trinity”?

You are a contentious man NH.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
I was reflecting to you that you seem to love labels more than most.
Labels divide.
I suggest if unity is truly your hope you should learn to do without them

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 15 2008,02:30)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2008,22:01) I hope that explains “God is spirit” as regards to the type of body He has. I am trying to explain things to you WJ.  I am afraid that you are going to pick this apart and miss the message.  You know the term “he can't see the forest for the trees”?  I think that is how it is said anyway.  It means that one can pick at small details and miss the whole picture.  I pray that you get the whole picture here. Also, you have labeled me as a Henotheist but that is not what I would label me.  I would appreciate it if you would not label me as that.  Because you said that tells me that you do not get what I am. Sincerely, LU Hi LU Sorry but I suppose you will have to claim that I cant see the forest for the trees. I prefer not to look outside of the book. There is a lot of inference in what you say and no scriptural evidence in my opinion. You are saying God “who is Spirit” has a Spirit body! Then God and his body must be inside of Yeshua, for all the fulness of Deity is settled in him and yet he Yeshua fills all things. IMO You have limited an infinite God to a geographical location by giving him a body. God fills all things. God sees all things. Hears all things. Knows all things. God does not live in time. God has no physical matter. He has no size. The limited things that we know about him are to simply give our finite minds a sense of who he is. God is not sitting off in some remote part of the universe and having his Holy Spirit beam back to him everything he needs to know. Want to know a real parodox. As infinitly big as he is, he is as infinitly small. He holds together the atomic structure of all things. He is everywhere all at the same time. Yet he can be no where. He is in a metaphysical class of his own. So to even begin to compare the “Omnipresent”, “Omniscient” “Omnipresent” God to us puny humans who live in flesh temples is definatly not seeing the forest for the trees. IMO. Blessings! WJ

Happy Father's Day to you WJ,
The LORD has a “form” that was seen by Moses. He probably didn't see Him clearly but Moses did see His form.

Numbers 12:4+
4 Suddenly the LORD said to Moses and Aaron and to Miriam, “You three come out to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. 5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the doorway of the tent, and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward, 6 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 “Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?” 9 So the anger of the LORD burned against them and He departed.

In this passage we see that Moses saw the form of the LORD. Also, we see that the LORD is not everwhere at all times because it says that “He departed”.

There you go….scriptural evidence!

Here is one reason why the LORD is invisible to us and it is not because He doesn't have a body.

Deut 4:15
15 “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, 16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female…

God didn't want the people making images of Him. That is one reason He didn't want them to see His form. Can you imagine all the merchandising there would be if we knew exactly what God looked like? My son said that he saw a Jesus “super action figure” in a hippie like story yesterday and it had nothing to do with a child's Bible story playset. It was a mockery.

Also, God's body is not inside of Jesus. It is His inner spirit that fills Jesus which also can fill us. Jesus is different though and has the “fullness of deity” because Jesus also has been given the function of deity to us. He was not given the function of deity to His Father of course, but to us.

Thoughts for the day,
LU

[gollamudi]

Hi LU,
I am curious to ask you what your Greek says in Jn14:16-18:

16
“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you

and also here in Jn 16:7-15:

7
“But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
8
4 And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation:
9
sin, because they do not believe in me;
10
righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see me;
11
condemnation, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.
12
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
13
5 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.
14
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
15
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you”
Is it active voice or passive voice as you often quote Jn1:1-5 as some thing much in active voice?
One more straight question to you:
Is the Holy Spirit personal Spirit of God the Father?
Hope you will reply these questions positively.
Peace to you
Adam

[942767]

942767,June wrote:

Hi Brother WJ:

You say:

Quote

If the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father then explain this… Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

It is through His Holy Spirit that God reveals what is on the mind of God.  The Holy Spirit is not a living soul who speaks his own thoughts, but he is God's personal presence with us and leads us into all truths in the written Word.  All of the gospels and the epistles end with “amen” except the Acts of the Apostles which means that nothing can be added to the gospels or the epistles, and so God will lead us into all truths in what has already been written.  The Acts, however, is still open because God is still at work through his people.

Quote

1Cr 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Cr 2:10  But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

You say:

Quote

Cant be the Father… for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Yes, it is God our Father who will be guiding us into all truths in the written Word.  God speaks to us by His Spirit.

And you say:

Quote

Cant be Yeshua… He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

No, it is definitely not Yeshua, it is the Father speaking by His Spirit.  The Father testifies regarding His Beloved Son and His Christ.  Jesus is God's heir.  God has made all things in this world and in the worlds to come by him and for him.  Jesus explains this saying,

Quote

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

 He said, “ALL THINGS THAT THE FATHER HATH ARE MINE, THEREFORE SAID I…”.

You say:

Quote

Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us?

Again Jesus is God's heir and he has chosen to share his inheritance with us.

Next you ask:

Quote

Did Jesus send the Father?

It is Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Ghost.  No man can come to the Father but through him.  Therefore, the Holy Spirit flows through him to the believer.  It is not like Jesus has authority over the Father, but he has prayed that God would send His Spirit as our Comforter.  I'll give you the scripture to support this below:

Quote

Jhn 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Well, now God our Father has answered his prayer and sends us His Spirit through His Son.

You say:

Quote

There is three. Yet one Spirit. Yeshua confirms this in Matt 28:19, an unambiguous scripture clearly showing the three.

No, there are two souls the Father and the Son and One Spirit, the Holy Spirit.  Notice also that the scritpure states baptizing them “in the name”  not names..  This implies unity in purpose which the salvation of God's children from the consequence of sin.   The “name” is “Jesus” which means “Jehovah is salvation”.

You say:

Quote

As I have shown LU that even the verbs surrounding the pronouns in John 16:13-15 clearly shows the Holy Spirit Yeshua is speaking of as “Another”… And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, ( parakletos) , that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16

Yes, he was speaking of another Comforter other than himself as he was going to go to the Father.  But he explains in the following scriptures that he is speaking of the Holy Spirit which was already dwelling with them through him but would be actually in them after his asscencion into heaven.

Quote

Jhn 14:17  [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Quote

Finally you say: Quote Check this post out by modem mouth early in this thread and yoiu will see how many times the three are mentioned… Click Here! Do the study 94. The Father and Yeshua and the parakletos live in us by One Spirit. One God, three persons, One Spirit. So it is written in all of the scriptural data. I have looked at what was said in the thread to which you referred me.  I don't come up with anything different that we have already discussed.   What you say “One God”, three persons, One Spirit doesn't make any sense.  If the Holy Spirit is a person and is the Spirit that dwells within all persons, then the Holy Spirit dwells within himself? God dwells within us, his children, including Jesus, by His Holy Spirit, as our Father and our helper.  Jes us dwells with in us by the Word of God that is within him and within us as we learn to obey his commandments. Quote Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Quote Jhn 15:5  I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing Quote 2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. God Bless

Hi WJ:

I have shared my understanding of the scriptures with you and you have shared yours with me, and we don't agree, and so, the only thing left is for you to continue to pray for me and I for you.

There is no need to continue in the same old thing over and over again.

I will do one more thing.  I have written some E-mails to the pastor in charge of spiritual development in the church where I worship, I'll share what I have written to him in the “Trinity” thread.

I love you and want the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.

God Bless

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi 94

Quote (942767 @ June 16 2008,06:06)

Hi WJ: I have shared my understanding of the scriptures with you and you have shared yours with me, and we don't agree, and so, the only thing left is for you to continue to pray for me and I for you. There is no need to continue in the same old thing over and over again. I will do one more thing.  I have written some E-mails to the pastor in charge of spiritual development in the church where I worship, I'll share what I have written to him in the “Trinity” thread. I love you and want the very best that God has to offer for you and your family. God Bless

Ok, I will continue to pray for you and look forward to what your Pastor says.

I am curious though why you didnt answer my questions in this post?

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

Hi Brother WJ: You say: Quote If the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father then explain this… Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. It is through His Holy Spirit that God reveals what is on the mind of God.  The Holy Spirit is not a living soul who speaks his own thoughts, but he is God's personal presence with us and leads us into all truths in the written Word.  All of the gospels and the epistles end with “amen” except the Acts of the Apostles which means that nothing can be added to the gospels or the epistles, and so God will lead us into all truths in what has already been written.  The Acts, however, is still open because God is still at work through his people.

94. No offence, but you are diverting the subject and the quote I gave. What does John 16:13-15 have to do with the Acts still being an open book.

Let me see if I can explain it better.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;

Since when does the Most High God, the Father, “not speak of himself”?

but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Since when does the Almighty God, the Father, “have to hear from someone else before he speaks”?

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Since when does the Almighty God, the Father, have to receive from Yeshua to show unto us so he can glorify Yeshua?

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Since when does the Almighty God, the Father, take from Yeshua and show it unto us?
Why would the Father give it to Yeshua and then take it back?

The subject is the “Spirit of Truth”, not the Father, or Yeshua would have said the Father would be subservient to him. That is what is happening here. The Spirit is subservient to Yeshua. Do you believe that the Father is subservient to Yeshua?

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

1Cr 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Cr 2:10  But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

94. Look very close at this scripture. If the Spirit spoken of here is the Father, then why does it say “the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. Does the Father search the deep things of the Father? The Greek word for search is also found here…

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Rom 8:26,27

Does the Father pray to the Father? Does an “it” or “force” or a mere extension of God make intercession for us?

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

You say: Quote Cant be the Father… for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Yes, it is God our Father who will be guiding us into all truths in the written Word.  God speaks to us by His Spirit.

Your statement doesn’t address the scripture or point that John 16:13-15 cannot be the Father.

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

And you say: Quote Cant be Yeshua… He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. No, it is definitely not Yeshua, it is the Father speaking by His Spirit.  The Father testifies regarding His Beloved Son and His Christ.  Jesus is God's heir.  God has made all things in this world and in the worlds to come by him and for him.  Jesus explains this saying, Quote 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you  He said, “ALL THINGS THAT THE FATHER HATH ARE MINE, THEREFORE SAID I…”.

THERFORE SAID I WHAT? That the Father is going to take back from Yeshua what he gave him and then give it to us? That makes no since 94!

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

You say: Quote Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us? Again Jesus is God's heir and he has chosen to share his inheritance with us.

OK! AND? Still no explanation why the Father takes back from Yeshua what he gave him and then gives it to us!

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

Next you ask: Quote Did Jesus send the Father? It is Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Ghost.  No man can come to the Father but through him.  Therefore, the Holy Spirit flows through him to the believer.  It is not like Jesus has authority over the Father, but he has prayed that God would send His Spirit as our Comforter.  I'll give you the scripture to support this below: Quote Jhn 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Well, now God our Father has answered his prayer and sends us His Spirit through His Son.

But wait. You are saying that the Holy Spirit is the Father and now you are saying that Yeshua baptizes us with the Father. Imagine that, Yeshua baptizing men with the Holy Spirit. Do you know of any mere men that can do that? As far as Yeshua praying and the Father sending the Holy Spirit to us, does the Father send himself? And how does that work with this?

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

Why would Yeshua call him the “Comforter”, why wouldn’t he have said the Father who is Spirit will come to you. Did Jesus send the Father? Notice the Spirit is proceeding from the Father. If the Holy Spirit was the Father Yeshua would have said so.

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

You say: Quote There is three. Yet one Spirit. Yeshua confirms this in Matt 28:19, an unambiguous scripture clearly showing the three. No, there are two souls the Father and the Son and One Spirit, the Holy Spirit.  Notice also that the scritpure states baptizing them “in the name”  not names..  This implies unity in purpose which the salvation of God's children from the consequence of sin.   The “name” is “Jesus” which means “Jehovah is salvation”.

Where is the scripture that Matt 28:19 is “two souls”? Yeshua makes no distinction between the three. In fact the definite article is given to each. You are right about the one name though, the name above every name, Jesus.

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

You say: Quote As I have shown LU that even the verbs surrounding the pronouns in John 16:13-15 clearly shows the Holy Spirit Yeshua is speaking of as “Another”… And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, ( parakletos) , that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16 Yes, he was speaking of another Comforter other than himself as he was going to go to the Father.  But he explains in the following scriptures that he is speaking of the Holy Spirit which was already dwelling with them through him but would be actually in them after his asscencion into heaven. Quote Jhn 14:17  [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Quote True. But he wasn’t speaking of the Father was he? For he says he was going back to the Father. 942767,June wrote: Finally you say: Quote Check this post out by modem mouth early in this thread and you will see how many times the three are mentioned… Click Here! Do the study 94. The Father and Yeshua and the parakletos live in us by One Spirit. One God, three persons, One Spirit. So it is written in all of the scriptural data. I have looked at what was said in the thread to which you referred me.  I don't come up with anything different that we have already discussed.   What you say “One God”, three persons, One Spirit doesn't make any sense.  If the Holy Spirit is a person and is the Spirit that dwells within all persons, then the Holy Spirit dwells within himself? HUH? The Spirit dwells in all believers. But so does the Father and so does Yeshua. Yet there is only “One Spirit” I have given the scriptures. You do believe that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son don’t you 94? 942767,June wrote: God dwells within us, his children, including Jesus, by His Holy Spirit, as our Father and our helper.  Jesus dwells with in us by the Word of God that is within him and within us as we learn to obey his commandm ents.

Yes, the Father and Yeshua and the Comforter dwells in us by “One Spirit”.

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2008,09:12)

Quote Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Quote Jhn 15:5  I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing Quote 2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. God Bless

Good scriptures. Did you notice that the Spirit of God in Rom 8:9 is also the Spirit of Christ? Paul makes no distinction between the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. Those terms are interchangeable for the One Spirit that we have all been made to drink into.

Blessings! WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You say
“Good scriptures. Did you notice that the Spirit of God in Rom 8:9 is also the Spirit of Christ? Paul makes no distinction between the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. Those terms are interchangeable for the One Spirit that we have all been made to drink into.”

True.
But that Spirit is not another person.
God does not have another person in him.
Like us He has a spirit. He is Holy-the Holy Spirit
Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The comforter ever comes from the Father thorugh Jesus.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2008,15:35)

Hi WJ, Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:   The comforter ever comes from the Father thorugh Jesus.

Hi Nick where is it written that the comforter ever comes through Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi GM.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Eph2
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

[GeneBalthrop]

Gollamudi…..No where does it say the Comforter comes (THROUGH) Jesus, it comes from the Father and it is in Jesus and also in those who Have it. WE do have (access) to that Spirit through Jesus' sacrifice which is the forgiveness of sins. But even that is Gods doing. But the comforter does not channel (through) Jesus to us as the Word (through) would imply . The comforter comes from the Father Himself. Just as Jesus said he would ask the Father and he would send it to us.

peace brother…………gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi LU.

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,02:01)

Numbers 12:4+   4 Suddenly the LORD said to Moses and Aaron and to Miriam, “You three come out to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. 5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the doorway of the tent, and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward, 6 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 “Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?” 9 So the anger of the LORD burned against them and He departed. In this passage we see that Moses saw the form of the LORD.  Also, we see that the LORD is not everwhere at all times because it says that “He departed”. There you go….scriptural evidence! Here is one reason why the LORD is invisible to us and it is not because He doesn't have a body.

Sorry LU, this is not scriptural evidence that the Father who is Spirit has a Spirit Body.

Here is why.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

Now with your theology you have a contradiction. Did Moses see God, or was John lying?

Consider Yeshua’s own words…

No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.  John 6:46

Of course since no one has seen the Father except Yeshua, then the question is what does that make Yeshua?

This presents no problem for the Trinitarian, for one, we believe Yeshua is True God, secondly, we believe that wherever you see the Patriarchs or the Prophets of Old seeing God, they were actually seeing the preexisting Yeshua.

More on this here ———->Click Here!

Yeshua is the “Image of the invisible God”. Col 1:15

Yeshua tells us why no one has seen the Father at anytime…

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt 11:27

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. Luke 10:22

Only the Son could reveal the Father. So when they saw YHWH they were seeing the Image of the invisible YHWH. No man could come to the Father but by Yeshua. That was not only true when he was in the flesh, but also true when he was in the beginning as the Word that was with God and was God.

Yeshua is also referred to as YHWH in the Torah and the Tanakh. For instance Zech 14. reveals this truth; which Brother Isa 1:14 explains very well here…

Click Here!

So I am sorry, your proof text is not enough to convince me that the Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent Father who is Spirit lives in a Spirit body off in heaven somewhere.

Surely if God is Spirit and fills all things why would he need a Body?

How Big is God? Click Here!

Blessings WJ

Blessings

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 15 2008,13:44)

Hi LU, I am curious to ask you what your Greek says in Jn14:16-18: 16 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, 17 the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you and also here in Jn 16:7-15: 7 “But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 4 And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation: 9 sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see me; 11 condemnation, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. 12 “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. 13 5 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. 15 Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you” Is it active voice or passive voice as you often quote Jn1:1-5 as some thing much in active voice? One more straight question to you: Is the Holy Spirit personal Spirit of God the Father? Hope you will reply these questions positively. Peace to you Adam

Hi Golla,

I'm not sure this is what you are asking for but you asked me to show you what my Greek says. Well, here you have the English translation and below it you have the original Greek.

You can find this yourself at http://www.studylight.org/. For Bible version put in NAS with Strong's Numbers. Then click on “original Greek” and then “side-by-side display” or “Greek lexical parser”. You will find out all sorts of things about the original Greek on that site.

John 4:16
In English:
16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot * receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

In Greek:
Verse 16:
kagw erwthsw (5692) ton patera kai allon paraklhton dwsei (5692) umin ina meq' umwn eiv ton aiwna h, (5753)

Verse 17:
to pneuma thv alhqeiav, o o kosmov ou dunatai (5736) labein, (5629) oti ou qewrei (5719) auto oude ginwskei; (5719) umeiv ginwskete (5719) auto, oti par' umin menei (5719) kai en umin estai. (5704)
Verse 18:
Ouk afhsw (5692) umav orfanouv, erxomai (5736) prov umav.

Here is Jn 16:7-15
16:7
“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

all' egw thn alhqeian legw (5719) umin, sumferei (5719) umin ina egw apelqw. (5632) ean gar mh apelqw, (5632) o paraklhtov ouk eleusetai (5695) prov umav; ean de poreuqw, (5680) pemyw (5692) auton prov umav.

16:8
“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
kai elqwn (5631) ekeinov elegcei (5719) ton kosmon peri amartiav kai peri dikaiosunhv kai peri krisewv;

16:9
concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
peri amartiav men, oti ou pisteuousin (5719) eiv eme;

16:10
and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;

peri dikaiosunhv de, oti prov ton patera upagw (5719) kai ouketi qewreite (5719) me;

16:11
and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

peri de krisewv, oti o arxwn tou kosmou toutou kekritai. (5769)

16:12
“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot * bear them now.
Eti polla exw (5719) umin legein, (5721) all' ou dunasqe (5736) bastazein (5721) arti;

16:13
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

otan de elqh (5632) ekeinov, to pneuma thv alhqeiav, odhghsei (5692) umav en th alhqeia pash; ou gar lalhsei (5692) af' eautou, all' osa akousei (5692) lalhsei, (5692) kai ta erxomena (5740) anaggelei (5692) umin.

16:14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

ekeinov eme docasei, oti ek tou emou lhmyetai (5695) kai anaggelei (5692) umin.

16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore * I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

panta osa exei (5719) o pathr ema estin; (5748) dia touto eipon (5627) oti ek tou emou lambanei (5719) kai anaggelei (5692) umin.

Quote

Is it active voice or passive voice as you often quote Jn1:1-5 as some thing much in active voice?

Which verb/verbs in the above would you like to know that about? Can you narrow it down for me?
From a quick look, there is a combination of active verbs and some middle voice verbs. I am not sure about passive verbs because I looked at just some of the verses. Maybe ask me about one verse at a time. If you are asking whether the Holy Spirit is doing the action of the verbs, well, from a quick look, yes for the most part. That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is a person though. It just means that it is actively doing the verb. The Holy Spirit is something that is functional and is functioning within us from God.

Quote

One more straight question to you: Is the Holy Spirit personal Spirit of God the Father?

Yes, I believe so.

Let me know better how I can answer your quest.
LU

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,02:01)

Happy Father's Day to you WJ,

BTW. Thanks. I had a good Fathers day. My 2 girls and my grand kids took me out to eat at a place of my choice. YUMMEE! Had some great fellowship.

Anyway thanks again!

Blessings! WJ

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2008,16:51)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,02:01) Happy Father's Day to you WJ, BTW. Thanks. I had a good Fathers day. My 2 girls and my grand kids took me out to eat at a place of my choice. YUMMEE! Had some great fellowship. Anyway thanks again! Blessings! WJ

A steak house, right?

[Lightenup]

Hi WJ,
I'm glad to hear that your day went well. My five kids and I took my hubbie out to TGI Fridays. It cost me over $100 for lunch…WOW! My husband was happy that he didn't have to pay for his own Father's Day lunch:D
God bless,
LU

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 16 2008,16:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2008,16:51) Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,02:01) Happy Father's Day to you WJ, BTW. Thanks. I had a good Fathers day. My 2 girls and my grand kids took me out to eat at a place of my choice. YUMMEE! Had some great fellowship. Anyway thanks again! Blessings! WJ A steak house, right?

Mandy!

Yep. All you can eat. I behaved though!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,16:56)

Hi WJ, I'm glad to hear that your day went well.  My five kids and I took my hubbie out to TGI Fridays.  It cost me over $100 for lunch…WOW!  My husband was happy that he didn't have to pay for his own Father's Day lunch:D God bless, LU

Hi LU

Wow. Must have been GOOOOD!!!

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2008,17:02)

I behaved though!

I'm sorry to hear that!

I'm kidd'en ya. I'm glad you had a great day, Keith. You deserve it.

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