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942767……Notice it says (if) they fall away. question does a man sins make him fall away? if so How? John said if we say we have no sin we are lairs. so whats you explanation of this then.
love and peace to you…………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 26 2008,14:29) 942767……Notice it says (if) they fall away. question does a man sins make him fall away? if so How? John said if we say we have no sin we are lairs. so whats you explanation of this then. love and peace to you…………..gene
Hi Gene:There is a difference between committing a sin either wilfully or not and practicing sin wilfully without repenting.
Quote 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 942767………a truly converted person who has God eternal given Spirit, the one that Jesus said would (NEVER) leave us, can never continue to practice sinning , the Spirit (the seed ) of God abides in him and he cannot continue to practice sin, just as it says.
Nearly all have departed form the faith, but who's to say the ever had it in the first place. All Christianity is apostatized and fallen away from the faith that was once and for all delievered. IMO
peace to you and yours………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 26 2008,15:25) 942767………a truly converted person who has God eternal given Spirit, the one that Jesus said would (NEVER) leave us, can never continue to practice sinning , the Spirit (the seed ) of God abides in him and he cannot continue to practice sin, just as it says. Nearly all have departed form the faith, but who's to say the ever had it in the first place. All Christianity is apostatized and fallen away from the faith that was once and for all delievered. IMO
peace to you and yours………………gene
Hi Gene:You are giving me your opinion, but the scripture says that they departed from the faith. If they departed from the faith, then that means that they were in the faith at one time.
God Bless
942767………Christianity departed from the Faith a long time ago brother people aren't even being taught the Faith that was once and for all delivered unto the Saints. Jesus said when the son of man come will He find FAITH on the EARTH, answer IMO, (NO) i highly doubt it. People think suppositions are faith, true Faith requires evidence of the reality of GOD. How many do you think really have that. Even the disciples who were seeing the great miracles done in front of them Jesus said Had little Faith. So how much less now.
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06)
You didn't answer my question.Why would God allow this adversary to torture Job, if it would not work for Job's benefit?
I never said that God doesn’t work all things together for good for those that love him or who are walking perfectly before him (Rom 8:28). I am the one who has been saying that God allowed satan to afflict Job with this evil. All things that come against the righteous are not from the Lord. It is evident in Job's case that his torture was from satan.But your warped theology insists that God brings evil and torture on the righteous. The scriptures teach that the Lord didn’t do this to Job…
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although “THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, BEHOLD, HE IS IN THINE HAND; “BUT SAVE HIS LIFE“. Job 2:6
But, this doesn’t seem to register with you.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06)
Yes, Job was seen by God as an upright man, that does NOT mean however that there was no work to be done in Job. Obviously Job in the end came out a wiser and better man.
True. But this conversation is about whether satan is a sentient being who is an enemy of God and whether God brought this evil on Job or was it satan.But you insist that satan was a “friend of God”. Who needs a God with friends like that since this “friend of God” seeks to move the hand of God against Job to destroy him without cause? If Job is a friend of God and satan who did all this evil is his “adversary”, then satan is also an adversary of God.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06)
The adversary plays no part after chapter two, after that it's about the identity of man and of God, as well as the need for God to test man through trials, which He does through the use of His messengers.
Can you give us a scripture that says satan who is an enemy of God and of Job, is the Lord’s messenger to Job?
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06) In the beginning there was no need for a specific punishment because no direct sin was committed by Job. However, God obviously took into account what the messenger told Him about Job, otherwise God would not have inflicted Job.
First you say…Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06)
You didn't answer my question.Why would God “allow” this adversary to torture Job, if it would not work for Job's benefit?
Now you say…Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06) otherwise God would not have inflicted Job.
Which is it Jodi? God allowed it or God did it?And the LORD said unto Satan, BEHOLD, HE IS IN THINE HAND; “BUT SAVE HIS LIFE“. Job 2:6
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06) My foggy glasses?? Your the one who basically said that verses not in quotations coming from God, are written from the carnal mind and cannot be trusted.
How disingenuous to totally misrepresent me. Can you show me where I said…Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06) …”that verses not in quotations coming from God, are written from the carnal mind and cannot be trusted”.
This is what you call “bearing False Witness”. Here, I will explain it again…The scriptures say as you quoted…
42:11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.
This is a “true” account of what his brothers and sisters said and did for Job. However their perception concerning the Lord bringing the evil upon him was wrong because the Lord said…
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although “THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, BEHOLD, HE IS IN THINE HAND; “BUT SAVE HIS LIFE“. Job 2:6
The scriptural account of Job's family and friends is inspired and a true account. But their word about the Lord bringing the evil upon Job is their own carnal understanding that God did this evil to Job. Kind of like what you believe huh?
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06) WJ, you need to KEEP READING passed Chapter 2, the book of Job goes into over 40 chapters dude, even my King James bible has a chapter titled, JOB REPENTS.
I have read the book many times and nowhere does the Lord say he brought the evil on Job. So Job repents, but this has nothing to do with satan being the enemy of God and Job.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06) You said, “Scriptures teach it is Blessings on the obedient and righteous and curses on the rebellious and wicked.”
Can you show me in the scripture where this is not true? Where is the scripture that shows the “Lord” cursing the righteous?Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06) So, once again, why would God allow for Job to be cursed then?
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:8It was the Lord that brought up Job for satan to consider that there was none like him in the earth. Yet satan tempted God and sought to move his hand against him to destroy him by challenging God’s confidence in Job. So God let satan put Job to the test, and we know in the end Job passed the test and did not curse God.
But according to your theology God took all he had except his life and afflicted him with boils and sickness, because you believe the enemy of God is the friend of God.
By your theology when a little girl is raped then the rapist is the messenger of the Lord. Because you believe all evil comes from the hand of God.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06) I will tell you why, because God and His messenger, BOTH KNEW that there was work and instruction to be done with Job.
If satan the enemy of God knew what God knew then why would God say to satan…… HAST THOU CONSIDERED MY SERVANT JOB, THAT THERE IS NONE LIKE HIM IN THE EARTH, A PERFECT AND AN UPRIGHT MAN, ONE THAT FEARETH GOD, AND ESCHEWETH EVIL? Job 1:8
And…
…the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? “AND STILL HE HOLDETH FAST HIS INTEGRITY”, ALTHOUGH THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 25 2008,19:06)
Job 42:1 Then Job replied to the Lord: 2 “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. 3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. 4 “You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' 5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”Yes, if you actually read the Book of Job it isn't hard to understand, it is clear.
IN PART, THANKS TO GOD'S WATCHFUL MESSENGER, JOB BECAME A BETTER MAN!
As you said, after chapter 2 satan the “adversary” of Job and God, is no longer mentioned.If you consider satan a “watchful messenger” (where is the scripture for that?) then woe be to all of God’s righteous.
Satan is a live sentient being spoken of in the Hebrew and NT scriptures.
But it seems you want to keep the foggy glasses on.
WJ
Hi GB
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 26 2008,04:56) WJ…….what do you do with this scripture, that says GOD did it to JOB. JOB 42:11…> Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of acquaintance before and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over (ALL) THE( EVIL) THAT THE (LORD) HAD (BROUGHT) UPON HIM: THIS SCRIPTURE SHOWS GOD DID IT ALL,…
No. That scripture does not say “God did it all”.The writer is recording the story as he knew it. Was he contradicting himself? For earlier he records…
And the LORD said unto Satan, BEHOLD, HE IS IN THINE HAND; “BUT SAVE HIS LIFE“. Job 2:6
The writer is repeating what Job's friends and family were saying and doing. Job's friends and family nor Job himself had the spiritual perception that it was at the hand of satan this evil came upon him and not the Lord.
WJ
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 26 2008,15:58) 942767………Christianity departed from the Faith a long time ago brother people aren't even being taught the Faith that was once and for all delivered unto the Saints. Jesus said when the son of man come will He find FAITH on the EARTH, answer IMO, (NO) i highly doubt it. People think suppositions are faith, true Faith requires evidence of the reality of GOD. How many do you think really have that. Even the disciples who were seeing the great miracles done in front of them Jesus said Had little Faith. So how much less now. peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Hi Gene:I hope that you and I and Nick and many more will be in the faith when Jesus comes for the church if we are alive at that point or that we will have died in faith.
942767…….i also hope that brother. Remember He who has been given much, much shall be required much, and he who has been given little, little will be required. Everyone according to what they have, not all have the same understanding. God our Father is just.
love to you and yours brother………………..gene
Good Evening WJ,
HMMM, let's see, where should we begin?
Well, for starters, what I don't see in the bible is this actual evil spiritual being of whom you talk about. I find these scriptures interesting given your view,
De 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Ex 9:10 Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast.
De 28:27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.
Job's friends were following IN the revelations of which God gave them, which is that YHWH CAUSES BLESSINGS AND CURSINGS, HIS POWERS BRING ON BOILS. But YOU want to follow the heathen, with their ideas of false gods having powers to curse. How DARE YOU go against the word of God and His powers.
Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
YLT Job 2:7 And the Adversary goeth forth from the presence of Jehovah, and smiteth Job with a sore ulcer from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Nu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
THERE IS NO AUTHORITY to say that IN THE BIBLE that some individual PERSON with the NAME SATAN exists, that is to be ignorant of the Hebrew word-!tX with the phonetic spelling of saw-tawn'.
It should be obvious to anyone who wants to study the bible away from the harlot, as to how the creation of the false god SATAN came into existence (through the RCC). Does Dantes Inferno sound familiar?? I say false god because that is exactly what you do WJ, when you give over God's powers to another being, you create a false god. You and Nick, and other people like Irene and Georg all worship this false god you call SATAN. You FEAR HIM and preach others should fear him, therefore you worship him and try to get others to worship him.
Just like the 'Satans' that were God's messengers in Numbers, the Satan in Job was one of God's messenger's too.
You want to tell me that Job's friend's were WRONG in attributing Job's suffering to God, even though God told their people that HE CAUSES such cursings? You also want to ignore the warnings God gave them not to believe in false gods, false gods that were false because they were believed to have the powers that God alone had. YOUR VIEW is just unbelievable, because you call it truth, but yet it mirrors the heathens.
Did not Job repent at the end? Therefore, was not the adversary 's original calling to God in His presence one that worked for the betterment of Job? How can you declare that this adversary was against God? Did he not help lead Job into wisdom and repentance? By GOD he DID! Literally BY GOD he DID, because it was God's powers of whom this adversary unto Job did work!
The messenger brought onto God a work that needed to be done in Job, at first we see in the text God is curious about the whole thing because Job is an upright man, however He knows because of the particular circumstances to Job, that the messenger is right, therefore God grants the messenger to be an adversary to Job.
WJ, there are indeed times in the bible where even human beings talk things over with God, as if God has to think about what to do. There is even bargaining that goes on. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah and deciding when to destroy the cities depending on the number of righteous people?
I know that this post won't get through your thick heathen skull, but I don't write it for you, but other's who might not cling to fearing (worshiping) Satan as you do.
God has to instruct His messenger not to kill Job, because often times that is what His messengers have had to do.
Your whole argument WJ stems from your misinterpretation of this scripture.
Job 2:6 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.'
If this adversary was against God, then why would he follow God's orders? If this adversary was not connected to God through God's Holy Spirit, then how would he have the powers of which the bible says come from God ALONE??
Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”
I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
The heathens believed that other beings had the power to bring forth life and death, blessings and cursings, which is EXACTLY what you teach WJ!
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) Good Evening WJ, HMMM, let's see, where should we begin?
Well, for starters, what I don't see in the bible is this actual evil spiritual being of whom you talk about. I find these scriptures interesting given your view,
De 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Ex 9:10 Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast.
De 28:27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.
Job's friends were following IN the revelations of which God gave them, which is that YHWH CAUSES BLESSINGS AND CURSINGS, HIS POWERS BRING ON BOILS. But YOU want to follow the heathen, with their ideas of false gods having powers to curse. How DARE YOU go against the word of God and His powers.
Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
YLT Job 2:7 And the Adversary goeth forth from the presence of Jehovah, and smiteth Job with a sore ulcer from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Nu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
THERE IS NO AUTHORITY to say that IN THE BIBLE that some individual PERSON with the NAME SATAN exists, that is to be ignorant of the Hebrew word-!tX with the phonetic spelling of saw-tawn'.
It should be obvious to anyone who wants to study the bible away from the harlot, as to how the creation of the false god SATAN came into existence (through the RCC). Does Dantes Inferno sound familiar?? I say false god because that is exactly what you do WJ, when you give over God's powers to another being, you create a false god. You and Nick, and other people like Irene and Georg all worship this false god you call SATAN. You FEAR HIM and preach others should fear him, therefore you worship him and try to get others to worship him.
Just like the 'Satans' that were God's messengers in Numbers, the Satan in Job was one of God's messenger's too.
You want to tell me that Job's friend's were WRONG in attributing Job's suffering to God, even though God told their people that HE CAUSES such cursings? You also want to ignore the warnings God gave them not to believe in false gods, false gods that were false because they were believed to have the powers that God alone had. YOUR VIEW is just unbelievable, because you call it truth, but yet it mirrors the heathens.
Did not Job repent at the end? Therefore, was not the adversary 's original calling to God in His presence one that worked for the betterment of Job? How can you declare that this adversary was against God? Did he not help lead Job into wisdom and repentance? By GOD he DID! Literally BY GOD he DID, because it was God's powers of whom this adversary unto Job did work!
The messenger brought onto God a work that needed to be done in Job, at first we see in the text God is curious about the whole thing because Job is an upright man, however He knows because of the particular circumstances to Job, that the messenger is right, therefore God grants the messenger to be an adversary to Job.
WJ, there are indeed times in the bible where even human beings talk things over with God, as if God has to think about what to do. There is even bargaining that goes on. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah and deciding when to destroy the cities depending on the number of righteous people?
I know that this post won't get through your thick heathen skull, but I don't write it for you, but other's who might not cling to fearing (worshiping) Satan as you do.
God has to instruct His messenger not to kill Job, because often times that is what His messengers have had to do.
Your whole argument WJ stems from your misinterpretation of this scripture.
Job 2:6 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.'
If this adversary was against God, then why would he follow God's orders? If this adversary was not connected to God through God's Holy Spirit, then how would he have the powers of which the bible says come from God ALONE??
Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”
I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
The heathens believed that other beings had the power to bring forth life and death, blessings and cursings, which is EXACTLY what you teach WJ!
JODI
You do not believe that Satan is a being andthat is the biggest lie ever told. Satan is laughing all the way to the Lake of Fire, because he is taking some with him. And that is what Scriptures have told me.
So I am not arguing with you or debating with you about this subject further, there is no sense in it, you believe what you want to. So be it. Have a Nice New Year.Peace and Love Irene
Jodi……….right on sis, this (MYSTERY RELIGION) of a Satan GOD IDOL, is indeed one of the biggest lies perpetrated by MYSTERY BABYLON teaching of the RCC and other Protestant religions. We are told to come (OUT) of that false teachings. If people only knew how much False teachings have been perpetrated by that False religion, they would be shocked. Jodi, i know how hard it is to stand up against so many who have been decieved by these false teachings of the Harlot, but stay strong your crown awaits you sis. Continue to expose these lies as the SPIRIT gives you more understanding.
love and peace to you and yours…………..gene
GB,
The whore rides on the back of the dragon.He who is to be confined in the pit for the millenium is the driving force for her mischief.
Rev17
8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.Nick…..This beast (IS) Evil itself an is not a person. God will remove EVIL from the Earth for a thousand years Its not a person. Come out of the MYSTERY RELIGION and wash you eyes with the save Jesus gives and you will begin to see. The reason the people on earth will wonder is because they will realize the Beast is Just (EVIL) and was never a real person or being as they were taught it was, The beast is itself is the EVIL THAT WAS AND IS NOT AND YET IS, why ? because EVIL has and will ALWAYS EXIST It is part of life. It will be cast into intense Judgment and this Judgment is what will cause it to be destroyed in our lives, but it (EVIL) will always exist so therefore it yet is. and the only way to live live eternally is to overcome it, and that takes real judgement to do.
Vodoo Satan being religion, is part of the Harlots teachings. No one have ever seen any devil or Satan or demon being other than a human being. Who is practicing EVIL in His or Her life. For all that in the world the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes , and the pride of life a from (THE WORLD) not some being jumping in and out of someone.
REREAD what JODI wrote and apply the scripture she gave. Come out of your blindness let truth be come into you.
love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2008,11:02) GB,
You should write your own bible if you do not like what God has given us.
OOHHH, nice one! What a BURN, OUCH!
Really, what kind of lame comment is that? Gene obviously holds what God has given us in the bible to be true, he just sees it different from you.
Don't you have anything constructive to say?
Gb,
This is what my bible says
Rev20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2008,12:20) Gb,
This is what my bible says
Rev20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Hi Nick,The old serpent, the adversary, the slanderer, all represent the intellect of those that follow after their flesh and are drawn to do so naturally because of death which puts them in a state of fear and survival.
When Jesus returns for the thousand year reign, death will be put aside and along with it will then go man's struggle for survival thus removing the old serpent, the adversary…the intellect driven to follow the flesh.
The members of the first resurrection are resurrected into eternal life, however those of the second are not, they are resurrected back into their previous state of flesh and blood, survival and the ability to die. This then loosens the adversary once again. Death is the last enemy that is destroyed after the second resurrection. All sin in the flesh will die by being burned away from the lake of fire, therefore there will be no need for death for there will be no sin, every man is purified.
I see things I think, maybe a little different from Gene on this. Evil in the heavens and the earth will cease to exist, however if God decides to create more independent beings with our similar intelligence, then evil would then come forth once again until God works to rid it from them, as He did with us.
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