This topic contains 2,236 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 8 months, 2 weeks ago.

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    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,08:26)

    Hi David

    Also, specifically in relation to James 1:13, note that the same word for “try” in James 1:13 is used in Hebrews 11:17 – look it up:

    “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son”

    Look back in Genesis and you'll find that it was God that told Abraham to offer Isaac, not an immortal fallen angel. How would you like to reconcile that?

    I think we should have looked at the word “evil” a while ago:

    deeply immoral and malevolent, extreme wickedness and depravity, something harmful or undesirable.

    The question is: Was it with an evil thing that Abraham was tried? I suppose it was an undesriable thing. The thing is–it is God who decides what is right and wrong, good and bad. We are in no position to say whether something He does is good or evil. If Jehovah does something, it is not “deeply immoral,” or “wicked” or “depraved.” If Jehovah does it, he is completely justified, knows the outcome, and can't be questioned.

    Hi David

    That misses the point. Is there, or is there not, a sense in which God “tries” people? Absolutely – Heb 11:17 is concrete proof of that. All James is saying is that God doesn't prompt people to be tempted (v14).

    I'll respond to the rest of your post, and to your post about Job, later on.

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    Quote (Sammo @ May 22 2006,07:05)

    You can be extremely difficult to talk to sometimes. In one post you say that Revelation should be taken literally, but then in the very next breath you're explaining at length the symbolism in Revelation 12.

    FWIW, I'd try and point out the gaps in your last post, but you do an embarrasingly good job of that yourself.

    Honestly, what kind of hope do I have against reasoning like that?

    The reason I went through that chapter it was because you offered it as an example of Revelation as a book of symbolism.

    I do not claim to understand most of Revelation but I will never stop studying it and offer my thoughts so that others can kick them about and we all will hopefully learn.

    It was also to show that one line may be symbolic and the next literal and we cannot afford to fall into the trap of missing the simple truths among the complex.

    Every verse will have to be examined, interrogated and even tortured to make them all speak to us, and they will, God willing, if we work together and keep at it.

    I do not mind being the fool or the fall guy for the sake of helping in this noble task.

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    Quote (Sammo @ May 22 2006,06:04)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,21:54)
    Hi sammo,
    So if you state, as your basis of faith in these matters, that

    Revelation is only symbolism

    Hi Nick

    This deserves to be taken to task. Please read through Revelation 12:

    1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Do you believe that literally:

    • A woman was clothed with the sun, with twelve stars on her head?
    • 1/3 of the stars of heaven have crashed into earth?
    • This woman grew two eagle-wings to escape from the serpent?
    • The woman was saved by being sucked up into the ground?

    OK, let's move on. In that case, is there literally an old serpent called Satan that deceives the whole world?

    Hi sammo,
    I have made an effort with Rev 12.
    Would you like to give us a verse by verse rundown also based on what you DO BELIEVE rather than what you cannot accept, as we need your insights too?

     Is 1:18 
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    Hi Sammo, hope life is good for you atm.
    I think NH has actually raised a valid point in pointing out that, although Revelation is a coded book (400 verses and 800 allusions to the OT I have been led to believe!), some symbols are actually explained in the book itself. And the star/angels idiom is one of those (Rev 1:20, 9:1). I think the fact Yahshua actually assigns this associated meaning in Revelation 1:20, and the fact that a star is personified in Rev 9:1 is weighty evidence that the stars in Re 12:4 should be taken to mean literal angels. And Job 38:7, Daniel 8:10 and Isaiah 14:12 adds credence to this explanation IMHO. Although these passages have allegories in them too!


    But just because a passage is symbolic (as Rev 12:1-4 manifestly is) doesn't mean the individual symbols are undecipherable. Right? I think it's okay to be disagree with someones interpretation, as long as you can supply an equally or more plausable explanation yourself. What do you think the stars in Rev 12:4 represent?

    In Rev 12:9 Satan is said to decieve the whole world and as a consequence are thrown down to earth with his angels. So the language in Rev 12 appears to switch from figurative 'stars'  to literal 'angels'. And this of course raises the question; if Satan isn't a real pesonage why are “angels” being thrown down to earth with “him”? This makes no sense unless you attribute personhood to both entities.

    Blessings friend.

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    Thank you Is 1.18. As you say it is shown that there are evil angels who are thrown to earth. So angels can sin. So what of satan himself?

    Are these evil angels leaderless or is Satan not shown to be a being who was in heaven, was thrown to earth and is the prince of darkness and leader of the angels who battled the good angels in heaven?

    I think Revelation is largely a series of repeated versions of the same heavenly and worldly time scenario but written from different points of view, using different idioms, relating to different circumstances and locations.

    Comparing chapter with chapter divulges some more information.That is why looking at Rev 11 as 2 men in Jerusalem defies the symbolism expressed elsewhere and is trite.

     malcolm ferris 
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    Yes it would be interesting to know what people think about these stars – angels.
    Is 1:18 has termed these 'literal angels' and that bears further investigation.
    What is a literal angel? Clearly there are angelic spirit beings that are angels.
    But the word translated as angel can also mean messenger.
    1 Tim 5:21 tells us that there are 'elect (chosen) angels'
    Heb 2:2 tells us that the word of the OT was spoken by angels (messengers – prophets Heb 1:1)
    Heb 13:2 implies that we can entertain what we think are men but are actually angels…
    1 Pet 2:4 speaks of angels that sinned before the world of Noah's time was flooded.
    Jude 1:6 also allude to these 'fallen' angels.
    Revelation chapters 1 to 3 speak of 7 lampstands which are 7 churches, and 7 stars which are 7 angel – messengers to these 7 churches. Are they literal angels and what is a literal angel?
    Revelation 10:1 shows us another mighty angel – who is this? Christ? Michael? or some other angel?
    Revelation 10:7 speaks of an angel on earth, the 7th angel – is this the same 7th angel as spoken of in Revelation 3:14? This angel sounds his voice to finish the mystery of God.
    Is this a heavenly angelic being preaching to men? If so it would be a first. Or is it an earthly messenger?

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    I think we could continue this in angels thread.

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    I thought we might as well look at the actual scriptures in question. There actually aren’t that many of them. I have left out the places where those original words apply definitely apply to an Adversary, opposer, resistor, (satan) or slanderer (devil). Anyway, here they are:

    “Satan” occurs:

    1 CHRONICLES 21:1
    “And SATAN proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel.”

    JOB 1:6-9
    “Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even SATAN proceeded to enter right among them. Then Jehovah said to SATAN: “Where do you come from?” At that SATAN answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” And Jehovah went on to say to SATAN: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” At that SATAN answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God?”

    JOB 1:12
    “Accordingly Jehovah said to SATAN: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So SATAN went out away from the person of Jehovah.”

    JOB 2:1-4
    “Afterward it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and SATAN also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before Jehovah. Then Jehovah said to SATAN: “Just where do you come from?” At that SATAN answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” And Jehovah went on to say to SATAN: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad? Even yet he is holding fast his integrity, although you incite me against him to swallow him up without cause.” But SATAN answered Jehovah and said: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul.”

    JOB 2:7
    “So SATAN went out away from the person of Jehovah and struck Job with a malignant boil from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.”

    ZECHARIAH 3:1-2
    “And he proceeded to show me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and SATAN standing at his right hand in order to resist him. Then [the angel of] Jehovah said to SATAN: “Jehovah rebuke you, O SATAN, yes, Jehovah rebuke you, he who is choosing Jerusalem! Is this one not a log snatched out of the fire?””

    MATTHEW 4:10
    “Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, SATAN! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’””

    MATTHEW 12:26
    “In the same way, if SATAN expels SATAN, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?”

    MATTHEW 16:23
    “But, turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, SATAN! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.””

    MARK 1:13
    “So he continued in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by SATAN, and he was with the wild beasts, but the angels were ministering to him.”

    MARK 3:23
    “So, after calling them to him, he began to say to them with illustrations: “How can SATAN expel SATAN?”

    MARK 3:26
    “Also, if SATAN has risen up against himself and become divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.”

    MARK 4:15
    “These, then, are the ones alongside the road where the word is sown; but as soon as they have heard [it] SATAN comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.”

    MARK 8:33
    “He turned, looked at his disciples and rebuked Peter, and said: “Get behind me, SATAN, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.””

    LUKE 10:18
    “At that he said to them: “I began to behold SATAN already fallen like lightning from heaven.”

    LUKE 11:18
    “So if SATAN is also divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because YOU say I expel the demons by means of Beeĺzebub.”

    LUKE 13:16
    “Was it not due, then, for this woman who is a daughter of Abraham, and whom SATAN held bound, look! eighteen years, to be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?””

    LUKE 22:3
    “But SATAN entered into Judas, the one called Iscaŕiot, who was numbered among the twelve;”

    LUKE 22:31
    ““Simon, Simon, look! SATAN has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat.”

    JOHN 13:27
    “And after the morsel then SATAN entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: “What you are doing get done more quickly.””

    ACTS 5:3
    “But Peter said: “Ananías, why has SATAN emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field?”

    ACTS 26:18
    “to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of SATAN to God, in order for them to receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by [their] faith in me.’”

    ROMANS 16:20
    “For his part, the God who gives peace will crush SATAN under YOUR feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with YOU.”

    “YOU hand such a man over to SATAN for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.”

    “Do not be depriving each other [of it], except by mutual consent for an appointed time, that YOU may devote time to prayer and may come together again, that SATAN may not keep tempting YOU for YOUR lack of self-regulation.”

    2 CORINTHIANS 2:11
    “that we may not be overreached by SATAN, for we are not ignorant of his designs.”

    2 CORINTHIANS 11:14
    “And no wonder, for SATAN himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.”

    2 CORINTHIANS 12:7
    “just because of the excess of the revelations. Therefore, that I might not feel overly exalted, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, an angel of SATAN, to keep slapping me, that I might not be overly exalted.”

    “For this reason we wanted to come to YOU, yes, I Paul, both once and a second time, but SATAN cut across our path.”

    “But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of SATAN with every powerful work and lying signs and portents”

    1 TIMOTHY 1:2
    “to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    1 TIMOTHY 5:15
    “Already, in fact, some have been turned aside to follow SATAN.”

    “‘I know your tribulation and poverty—but you are rich—and the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of SATAN.”

    “‘I know where you are dwelling, that is, where the throne of SATAN is; and yet you keep on holding fast my name, and you did not deny your faith in me even in the days of Ańtipas, my witness, the faithful one, who was killed by YOUR side, where SATAN is dwelling.”

    ““‘However, I say to the rest of YOU who are in Thyatíra, all those who do not have this teaching, the very ones who did not get to know the “deep things of SATAN,” as they say: I am not putting upon YOU any other burden.”

    “Look! I will give those from the synagogue of SATAN who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying—look! I will make them come and do obeisance before your feet and make them know I have loved you.”

    “So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one calle
    d DEVIL and SATAN, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”

    “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, SATAN will be let loose out of his prison,”

    “DEVIL” occurs:
    MATTHEW 4:1
    “Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the DEVIL.”

    MATTHEW 4:5
    “Then the DEVIL took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him upon the battlement of the temple”

    MATTHEW 4:8
    “Again the DEVIL took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,”

    MATTHEW 4:11
    “Then the DEVIL left him, and, look! angels came and began to minister to him.”

    MATTHEW 13:39
    “and the enemy that sowed them is the DEVIL. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.”

    MATTHEW 25:41
    ““Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the DEVIL and his angels.”

    LUKE 4:2
    “for forty days, while being tempted by the DEVIL. Furthermore, he ate nothing in those days, and so, when they were concluded, he felt hungry.”

    LUKE 4:3
    “At this the DEVIL said to him: “If you are a son of God, tell this stone to become a loaf of bread.””

    LUKE 4:6
    “and the DEVIL said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.”

    LUKE 4:14
    “Now Jesus returned in the power of the spirit into Gaĺilee. And good talk concerning him spread out through all the surrounding country.”

    LUKE 8:12
    “Those alongside the road are the ones that have heard, then the DEVIL comes and takes the word away from their hearts in order that they may not believe and be saved.”

    JOHN 8:44
    “YOU are from YOUR father the DEVIL, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].”

    JOHN 13:2
    “So, while the evening meal was going on, the DEVIL having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscaŕiot, the son of Simon, to betray him,”

    ACTS 10:38
    “namely, Jesus who was from Naźareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the DEVIL; because God was with him.”

    ACTS 13:10
    “and said: “O man full of every sort of fraud and every sort of villainy, you son of the DEVIL, you enemy of everything righteous, will you not quit distorting the right ways of Jehovah?”

    EPHESIANS 4:27
    “neither allow place for the DEVIL.”

    EPHESIANS 6:11
    “Put on the complete suit of armor from God that YOU may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the DEVIL;”

    1 TIMOTHY 3:6
    “not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the DEVIL.”

    1 TIMOTHY 3:7
    “Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the DEVIL.”

    2 TIMOTHY 2:26
    “and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the DEVIL, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one.”

    HEBREWS 2:14
    “Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things, that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the DEVIL;”

    JAMES 4:7
    “Subject yourselves, therefore, to God; but oppose the DEVIL, and he will flee from YOU.”

    1 PETER 5:8
    “Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the DEVIL, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone].”

    1 JOHN 3:8
    “He who carries on sin originates with the DEVIL, because the DEVIL has been sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the DEVIL.”

    1 JOHN 3:10
    “The children of God and the children of the DEVIL are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.”

    JUDE 9
    “But when Míchael the archangel had a difference with the DEVIL and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.””

    “Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The DEVIL will keep on throwing some of YOU into prison that YOU may be fully put to the test, and that YOU may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

    “and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.”

    REVELATION 12:12
    “On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the DEVIL has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.””

    REVELATION 20:10
    “And the DEVIL who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

    “Devil” and “Satan” appears:
    “And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the DEVIL and SATAN, and bound him for a thousand years.”

    So the question is, who are these verses referring to–a human opposer and slanderer or a spirit creature who is an opposer and a slanderer?

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    Hi David

    I'm sorry I didn't respond to this earlier.

    Quote (david @ May 18 2006,08:33)

    Reasons not to believe that the Devil/Satan is an immortal fallen angel:

    1* Angels cannot “fall”. If they sinned they would die (Romans 6:23), but they are immortal (Luke 20:36). Therefore angels cannot sin – they are “all” the “ministers of God” (Psalm 103:20-21)

    2* If Devil and Satan are proprer nouns for an immortal fallen angel, then they should not be used of regular men, women, a righteous angel and even God

    3* Inconsistencies in verses used to demonstrate the fall of the devil from heaven. For example, when exactly did this happen? How is the devil back in the presence of God in Job 1 etc?

    4* Rather, lust and sin come from within us (James 1:13-15, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9). We're not naturally good – we don't need the help!

    5* When bad things happen in the world, it's God who's in control (eg Amos 3:6), not a rival supernatural being.

    6* Similarly, when bad things happen to us, these are from God too (eg Job 1:21) – but at least we know that God is in control in our lives, and “all things work together for good” in the end (Rom 8:28)

    (numbers added)

    I don't understand your first point. The wages of sin is death. True. I have sinned. Yet, I am not dead yet. The angels that sinned will be destroyed. Doesn't 2 Peter 2:4 specifically very clearly say that some angels sinned? Doesn't Jude 6 speak of them awaiting judgement? Yes, the wages of sin is death. Just because I or the demons are not presnently dead, does not mean there is no sin, does it? Psalm 103 which you mention speaks of the angels that are carrying out his word, and listening to his voice, yet Jude 6 speaks of angels that forsook their proper dwelling place. Since God’s spirit sons are also to reflect God’s glory and bring praise to him, carrying out his will (Ps 148:1, 2; 103:20, 21), they can sin in the same basic sense as humans.

    But angels are immortal (Luke 20:36). If the wages of sin is death, and angels are immortal, then how can angels sin (and thus die)? If angels cannot die, and thus cannot sin, then there can be no such thing as a 'fallen angel'.

    You'll find that 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 have already been discussed at some length on the fallen angels thread.

    Quote (david @ May 18 2006,08:33)
    The second point, I wonder what you base this on. It is not on Bible examples. As I've said: “Adam” is a Hebrew word that literally means “earthling; human,” and is usually translated as “man.” But that does not at all mean that it may not at times refer to a certain man and therefore should be transliterated as “Adam.”—Gen. 5:1, 2.

    I'm by no means an expert on this, but apparently it's all to do with whether or not a definite article is used before the noun. Forgiving me for deferring to someone else's work, but please have a look at this link – the argument's not that hard to follow, and it's extremely compelling. Satan is NOT a name.

    Quote (david @ May 18 2006,08:33)
    On the third point, Satan wasn't cast down to the earth, and denied access to heaven until he fought with Michael the archangel and his angels. (Rev 12:9) A son can turn himself into a deliquent or a criminal and not be removed from his father's house at that point in time. The son had fallen into crime, but only later was he expelled.

    4. Well, we do have sinful tendencies, true. It's late, so that's all I'm going to say about that point now.

    On point 5, 'when bad things happen, it's God that's in control, not Satan.' Are you saying that God is in control of the bad things that happen?

    On point six, you quote Job 1:21. I would suggest reading all of Job. It was not Jehovah that took away. He allowed Job to be tested. It was Satan or the “adversary” if you like that was taking these things away from Job.
    JAMES 1:13-14
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”


    All these points are being discussed in other posts, so I'll leave them for now.

    I'm going to have to leave to responding to the rest of everyone's posts until tomorrow, sorry.

    God bless you guys

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    Hi sammo,
    Who said angels cannot sin?
    Scripture says they can.
    But they do not have earthly bodies that die as ours do.

    If you are basing this doctrine on one lone scripture without “witnesses” it needs to be carefully studied.
    Lk 20.34
    “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”

    So the resurrection being spoken of here is the FIRST resurrection, where the saved are raised into the 1000 reign. In that reign they are clothed in imperishable new bodies and they no longer physically die. The second death too has no power over them as they are sons of God.

    The death spoken of here is then the FIRST death. The law of sin and death only ever applied to those from the dust of earth. All creation was not cursed because of Adam's sin. Likewise the first death only applied to earthly creation, not heavenly. Angels never had earthly bodies so were not liable to this death.

    But the second death applies to all who sin.
    “1Thess 1.9
    ” these will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power”

    Satan's destiny is in this fire as also is the fate for those whose name is not in the book of life of the Lamb[Rev 20.13f, Rev 21.8]
    Rev 20 10
    “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER”

    Matt 25.41f
    “..Depart from me accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE, which has been prepared for THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS..
    …These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life””

    Eternal destruction where the body and soul of man can be destroyed is the fate of the angels who sinned. Angels can sin ,but they do not achieve the mercy God shows to weak men who can be forgiven.

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    Hi sammo,
    Mortality relates to physical bodies.

    Your approach to biblical study is interesting.

    You took one verse from Luke.
    You took from that one verse that angels cannot die.
    You then, working backwards, decided this proved that proved angels cannot sin.

    Thus you denied multiple scriptures saying they can sin, but, undeterred you declared your doctrine.
    Are you happy with the quality of this effort?

     malcolm ferris 
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    Luke 20:36 doesn't directly say that angels cannot die. It simply says that men in that form cannot die, for that form doesn't die. However there are angels that lost that estate (their first estate and fell with Satan) these are reserved for punishment and because of sin have a place prepared for them – the lake of fire.
    Men were never intended to die either but to come to the tree of life and live forever. Sin changed this for men as well. But through the blood of Jesus Christ God's son, we are restored back to that original purpose of God.

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    Amen Malcolm,
    And the lake of fire was not created for men but for the evil angels.

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    Zech 3.1
    “Then he showed me Joshua, the High Priest, standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
    And the Lord said to Satan
    'The Lord rebuke you Satan. Indeed the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you…”

    So how many beings are shown here? Sammo would perhaps say two but there are three.

    Joshua is approaching the Holy of Holies, I presume, as the high priest did, to intercede for the sins of the Israelites. He does not deal directly with God but the angel of the Lord.

    The angel speaks as God transmitting God's Word, and he rebukes the accuser of the brethren [Rev 12.10]in the name of God.

    We need an advocate as we, like Job, have a prosecuting lawyer, Satan, accusing us before God for our sins.

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    Quote (david @ May 21 2006,07:48)
    Yes, and who is the “ruler of the world” that Jesus mentioned 3 or 4 times who has no hold on Jesus. It's definitely not God in those verses.

    And in Rev 12, it speaks of Satan (the adversary) the original serpent, also called a dragon who with his angels battled with Michael and his angels, and he was hurled out of heaven. So this adversary or Satan was in heaven at one time.

    I'll check your website again.

    Hi David

    “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.” (John 12:31-33)

    The context of this is Jesus being crucified, 2000 years ago. Is this when you date the fall of Satan? When do you date the events of Revelation 12? People also like to quote Luke 10:18, but this also happened at a completely different time!

    Also, if you read this passage carefully, you'll see that if anywhere, the “prince of this world” was on earth, not in heaven. So where was Satan cast to?

    I read “the prince of this world” as a personification of sin, that figuratively ruled the earth through death. But when Jesus was crucified (which is the context of the passage), sin was overcome – thus “the prince of this world” was “cast out”.

    This is the same message as Hebrews 2:14 –

    “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Jesus destroyed the devil through his death – this is completely irreconcilable with the common view of Satan. If the fallen angel has already been destroyed, then what is anyone worried about? Rather, this passage is saying that the power of sin (that has the power of death – Rom 6:23) was overcome through Jesus. Sin here is personified as the devil.

    Fire alarm – gotta go!

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    Hi David

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,00:23)
    Ok, to Job.
    Why would Satan have to ask God for persmission to do those things in front of the whole assmebly of the sons of God? Because Satan is very intelligent (not wise, smart).
    The rebellious spirit called Satan assembled with other spirits in God’s presence.
    “Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it?” (Job 1:9, Today’s English Version)
    Satan, the adversary implied that humans’ loyalty to God depends exclusively on ‘what they can get out of it.’ And he did this in front of the sons of God. He was issuing a challenge.

    You make it sound like (the fallen angel I don't believe exists that you call) Satan engineered the whole thing – but it was God that mentioned Job to Satan (1:8), not the other way around!

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,00:23)
    You base what you believe on Job's three false comfortors? (Job 2:9; 4:7, 8; 8:5, 6; 11:13-15; 42:7,8)

    No – where did I say that? Although it is true that Job's comforters attribute his suffering to God, just like everyone else in the book.

    The narrator himself (who you think might have understood about 'Satan', since he supposedly talked about him in chapters 1-3) attributes his suffering to God:

    “Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.” (Job 42:11)

    The narrator himself assumes that God had brought the suffering on Job – and, after all, he's the one telling the story.

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,00:23)
    Despite what his wife, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar said, he remained loyal. He didn't sin with his lips. He held his integrity.

    Job says:

    “But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.” (Job 2:10)

    ie – “We have received evil at the hand of God”. Later on in your post you say that Job's sin, that he later retracts, was to attribute his suffering to God:


    he wrongly assumed that God was the cause of his calamity. He even criticized God’s way of dealing with man. (Job 27:2; 30:20, 21) And he declared his own righteousness rather than God’s. (Job 32:2)

    Notice the words:
    But Job refused to turn his back on the Creator, and he humbly accepted correction from God. “I talked, but I was not understanding,” he admitted. “I make a retraction, and I do repent in dust and ashes.”—Job 42:3, 6.

    Yet in Job 2:10, he says in the plainest possible language that God has caused his suffering, and in the very next sentence it says that “in all this Job did not sin with his lips”.

    So was Job sinning by saying that God caused his evil? – was that what Job retracted at the end of the book? Obviously not, it can't be! Because right after saying that God had caused his suffering, the narrator says that Job did not sin with his lips. This was the same narrator that (rightly) said that God had caused Job's suffering (Job 42:11).


    As an aside, what was it then that Job retracted in chapter 42? Everyone back then believed that bad things only happened to bad people. Basically Job was saying that he was a righteous man – and in that case, how could God have been just to bring such disasters on him?

    I see the book of Job as a lesson in grace – no matter how 'righteous' we are, we don't deserve any special favours at all from God (like Job thought he did). Everything that we have from God is a gift, and we can only be saved through his grace, not by anything that we can do.

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    btw, people often talk about the word “satan” as if it's someone's name (including the passages in Job).

    However, the link I posted before shows that this definitely wasn't the case in Job 1-3 and Zechariah 3, and thus is extremely unlikely to be the case in 1 Chronicles 21 (and as David pointed out above, yes that does exhaust the traditional OT Satan passages).

    In case anyone missed the link, here it is again:

    When you realise that 'Satan' is not used as a name in the OT, don't you think that significantly undermines the common perception?


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    Hi sammo,
    If someone chooses not to accept any part of the bible, Satan , even God Himself, then it is useless to attempt dialogue. They have already declared, against all the fundamental tenets of bible study, that what is written is not true. That may even blaspheme the Spirit who wrote it through men so take care.

    Our faith is not based on what we see with our eyes but on that which comes from the Spirit of God through men. Jesus spoke of Satan and we are not greater than him are we?

    We believe what is written is truth and do not need to justify that belief.

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    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,08:26)

    Isaiah 45

    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    It makes no difference if you want to change “evil” here to “woe” (NASB) – it's not like woe is a happy thing, and the point in question is whether or not the devil is responsible for all suffering in the world. Clearly Isaiah 45:7 says that evil, or woe, or whatever you want to call it, comes from God.

    Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7; compare KJ.) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. (Jon 3:10) Additionally, in having a warning given, Jehovah has undeservedly provided opportunities for the practicers of bad to change their course and thus to keep living.—Eze 33:11.

    I'm stoked to see you write that – I agree completely :)

    God can cause evil, but this is not unjust of him.

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,08:26)

    When Job loses his family and possessions, he says in Job 1:

    21 Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

    Job attributes his suffering to God.

    And he does so wrongly. Jehovah corrects him. See my post on Job above.

    Yet we're told that even though Job attributed his suffering To God, “in all this Job did not sin with his lips”. So attributing his suffering to God can not have been a sin.

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,08:26)

    For a certainty, Jehovah allowed the adversary, Satan, to cause Job's suffering. The adversary asked, and Jehovah allowed it. Men are usually not tested in such ways. But this was a special case. the Adversary believed that if he could turn Job, a man blamelesss and upright away from serving God, he could do it to anyone, and that would prove no human really serves God for the right reasons. Take away all the things he's been blessed with, thought the adversary, and he will curse God. Satan, the adversary asked and Jehovah allowed it. In this sense, God was somewhat responsible and could be said to have “brought” it on, by allowing it.
    This is the only interpretation that matches up with James 1:13 and the beginning of Job.

    Again, I'm stoked to see you say that, and other than the nature of what 'satan' was, I agree completely. God really can cause suffering – but importantly, his motive was out of love for Job, like a parent teaching a child a valuable lesson.

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,08:26)
    Yes, God has and will bring evil upon human governments and the wicked. He will bring calamity upon them. But when we are under trial, should we believe that God is behind it? No.

    JAMES 1:13
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”

    LUKE 13:4
    “Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Si·lo´am fell, thereby killing them, do YOU imagine that they were proved greater debtors than all other men inhabiting Jerusalem?”

    ECCL 9:11
    “time and unforeseen occurance befall [us] all.”

    Bad things happen. In large part, it is due to humans not following Jehovah's councel. (Deut 32:5; Eccl 7:29)

    Actually, I think you'll find that the Jewish view of providence was that everything is a direct result of God at work. Something might be an “unforseen occurance” so far as we're concerned, but not with God.

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,08:26)
    If God destroys a nation, then that nation deserved it. Jehovah is the judge of all the earth. He decides who has the right to life. If he decides you or I are not fit to live and so in the end, we are destroyed, is God doing something evil? By destroying the wicked, God is actually acting justly and in a loving manner towards the righteous.
    But saying that all the evil that happens in a persons life is because of God is different.

    This relates to the providence issue above – to what extent God is involved in our lives (I think he's completely involved).

    But I'm really stoked that you agree that God can cause suffering.

     malcolm ferris 
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    MATTHEW 13:19
    When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

    Who is this wicked one?

    MATTHEW 13:25
    But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

    MATTHEW 13:28
    He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

    MATTHEW 13:37-39
    He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    The good seed are God's children, but the tares are the children of the wicked one (aka Satan – the enemy)
    So if Satan is not a person then neither is God, both have children.

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