Satan

This topic contains 2,236 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 8 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #13770
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    Jesus called Satan the Father of lies.
    He is known as the accuser of the brethren
    and said to have been a murderer from the beginning
    who can appear as an angel of light.
    Rev 13.9
    “And
    the GREAT DRAGON,was thrown down,
    the SERPENT OF OLD who is called
    the DEVIL
    and SATAN
    who deceives the whole world;
    HE was thrown down to the earth, and HIS angels with HIM”

    The Christadelphians teach he does not exist.
    They say his name means adversary and thus it is just a name for an adversary.
    Do not many biblical names also have meaning and still they exist?
    Does not the name of Jesus have meaning as to his role too?

    What do you think?

    What would bible history be without Satan?

    #13771
     malcolm ferris 
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    If Satan is just a concept, then how do you punish a concept?
    It says He is punished – that a place of punishment was prepared for him to this end, and for all of his messengers and followers. All of his children.
    If Satan is just a concept then who's? who embodies that concept?
    Satan is an example of what can go wrong when a creature that does not have the character to handle it is given power (authority) and the ability to choose what to do with it. Power without character is satanic.

    #13772
     Sammo 
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    Hi guys

    Everything that might come up in this discussion (if I bit) has already been talked about the in the 'fallen angels' thread. But while we're here, I'd recommend people start reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan (“The idea of this ultimate agent of evil as the Prince of Darkness was most likely introduced (or strongly influenced) by the Iranian (Persian) prophet Zoroaster, whose ideas would later influence Judeo-Christian beliefs”, bingo)…

    …here: http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showforum=18

    or here: http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/devil.htm

    God bless
    Sam

    #13775
     malcolm ferris 
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    LUKE 10:18
    And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

    So Jesus was just believing in some Zoroastrian prophet then ?

    #13776
     david 
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    I read most of the pamphlet. Seems like you have everything wrapped up remarkably well.
    Satan is more clever than I imagined.

    #13777
     david 
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    I find this topic quite interesting. I have just begun to look at it.
    On page 4 of the fallen angels thread, Sammo says:

    Quote
    Men are called Satan (1 Kings 11:14, Matthew 16:23), and if you compare 2 Samuel 24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1, you'll find that even God is called Satan. If Satan really is the proper noun for an immortal fallen angel, then surely this is very odd.

    I don't know that it is very odd. “Adam” is a Hebrew word that literally means “earthling; human,” and is usually translated as “man.” But that does not at all mean that it may not at times refer to a certain man and therefore should be transliterated as “Adam.”—Gen. 5:1, 2.

    #13778
     malcolm ferris 
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    Ditto, I read it too – so God must be pretty lonely in Heaven with His heavenly host.
    For if Satan is not real, how can they be?
    So I guess it is pretty silent in heaven then when one of God's lost sheep are found.
    Or does God sing to Himself?…

    #13779
     david 
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    Quote
    Reasons not to believe that the Devil/Satan is an immortal fallen angel:

    1* Angels cannot “fall”. If they sinned they would die (Romans 6:23), but they are immortal (Luke 20:36). Therefore angels cannot sin – they are “all” the “ministers of God” (Psalm 103:20-21)

    2* If Devil and Satan are proprer nouns for an immortal fallen angel, then they should not be used of regular men, women, a righteous angel and even God

    3* Inconsistencies in verses used to demonstrate the fall of the devil from heaven. For example, when exactly did this happen? How is the devil back in the presence of God in Job 1 etc?

    4* Rather, lust and sin come from within us (James 1:13-15, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9). We're not naturally good – we don't need the help!

    5* When bad things happen in the world, it's God who's in control (eg Amos 3:6), not a rival supernatural being.

    6* Similarly, when bad things happen to us, these are from God too (eg Job 1:21) – but at least we know that God is in control in our lives, and “all things work together for good” in the end (Rom 8:28)

    (numbers added)

    I don't understand your first point. The wages of sin is death. True. I have sinned. Yet, I am not dead yet. The angels that sinned will be destroyed. Doesn't 2 Peter 2:4 specifically very clearly say that some angels sinned? Doesn't Jude 6 speak of them awaiting judgement? Yes, the wages of sin is death. Just because I or the demons are not presnently dead, does not mean there is no sin, does it? Psalm 103 which you mention speaks of the angels that are carrying out his word, and listening to his voice, yet Jude 6 speaks of angels that forsook their proper dwelling place. Since God’s spirit sons are also to reflect God’s glory and bring praise to him, carrying out his will (Ps 148:1, 2; 103:20, 21), they can sin in the same basic sense as humans.

    The second point, I wonder what you base this on. It is not on Bible examples. As I've said: “Adam” is a Hebrew word that literally means “earthling; human,” and is usually translated as “man.” But that does not at all mean that it may not at times refer to a certain man and therefore should be transliterated as “Adam.”—Gen. 5:1, 2.

    On the third point, Satan wasn't cast down to the earth, and denied access to heaven until he fought with Michael the archangel and his angels. (Rev 12:9) A son can turn himself into a deliquent or a criminal and not be removed from his father's house at that point in time. The son had fallen into crime, but only later was he expelled.

    4. Well, we do have sinful tendencies, true. It's late, so that's all I'm going to say about that point now.

    On point 5, 'when bad things happen, it's God that's in control, not Satan.' Are you saying that God is in control of the bad things that happen?

    On point six, you quote Job 1:21. I would suggest reading all of Job. It was not Jehovah that took away. He allowed Job to be tested. It was Satan or the “adversary” if you like that was taking these things away from Job.
    JAMES 1:13-14
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”

    david

    #13780
     NickHassan 
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    Hi sammo,

    Your teacher raises a lot of questions so I will only put a few here;
    If Satan does not exist are there evil angels and demons? What about the angels kept in eternal bonds under darkness? Do you believe in angels, Seraphim, Cherubim at all?  If so are they all good? Is the angel of the Lord real or not? ? What about heaven? Do evil spirits have a leader or not? What is the kingdom of darkness? Who is Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons Jesus spoke about? Does evil exist or only good? Who is the serpent? What about the dragon? Who took Jesus to the top of the temple? Who is the prince of this world? What about 'the evil one'? And the prince of the air? What about principalities and powers? Spiritual forces of wickedness in heavenly places? Do they all exist but only their leader is not real? Who did Michael dispute the body of Moses with? Who disguises himself as an angel of light? Does temptation not exist? Did Jesus cast out demons? What happened to the pigs the demons entered? What happened to the seven sons of Sceva? Is there no lake of fire for Satan either? Is this the only being in the bible you say does not exist or are there others too?

    What about God?

    The teacher you led us to has a great way of explaining away scriptural truth by grand inference, suggestion, false parallelism, and choice of scripture.

    It is my bet he could “prove” anything and make a magician feel like a failure.

    He could steal the crown jewels without anyone noticing.

    And we are dealing with what is more precious than Jewels here.

    When Peter was addressed it was a satan in him that Jesus was dealing with in my opinion.

    #13781
     t8 
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    Satan literally spoke to me audibly once, like he did with Jesus to tempt him.

    It doesn't matter what Sammo believes, rather it matters what scripture says. If I were to believe Sammo's teaching that Satan is not a real being, then I would be denying scripture and even my own experience.

    You know the saying Sammo ” the greatest lie the devil told was that he didn't exist”.

    If we do not believe that a certain enemy exists, then that enemy is in stealth mode and can move to and fro and do pretty much anything they want without fear of being caught.

    Sammo, you should consider that the Devil goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

    If you didn't believe in lions and then walked in the plains of Africa where lions dwelt, you would be in danger of being devoured. Saying that lions do not exist would not save you from being devoured.

    #13782
     t8 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2006,03:59)
    Hi sammo,

    Your teacher raises a lot of questions so I will only put a few here;
    If Satan does not exist are there evil angels and demons? What about the angels kept in eternal bonds under darkness? Do you believe in angels, Seraphim, Cherubim at all? If so are they all good? Is the angel of the Lord real or not? ? What about heaven? Do evil spirits have a leader or not? What is the kingdom of darkness? Who is Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons Jesus spoke about? Does evil exist or only good? Who is the serpent? What about the dragon? Who took Jesus to the top of the temple? Who is the prince of this world? What about 'the evil one'? And the prince of the air? What about principalities and powers? Spiritual forces of wickedness in heavenly places? Do they all exist but only their leader is not real? Who did Michael dispute the body of Moses with? Who disguises himself as an angel of light? Does temptation not exist? Did Jesus cast out demons? What happened to the pigs the demons entered? What happened to the seven sons of Sceva? Is there no lake of fire for Satan either? Is this the only being in the bible you say does not exist or are there others too?

    What about God?

    The teacher you led us to has a great way of explaining away scriptural truth by grand inference, suggestion, false parallelism, and choice of scripture.

    It is my bet he could “prove” anything and make a magician feel like a failure.

    He could steal the crown jewels without anyone noticing.

    And we are dealing with what is more precious than Jewels here.

    When Peter was addressed it was a satan in him that Jesus was dealing with in my opinion.


    From what I understand Nick, Christadelphians do not believe in anything that requires faith. So that Heaven is nothing but good thoughts, Satan is adversary. That is at least what one Christadelphian lady explained to me along time ago. Not sure if she represented their beliefs accurately however.

    Of course qualities usually come from people or persons. So evil had to come from somebody, just as good did/does. Otherwise how did all these qualities come into existence?

    Christadelphians seem to ignore the personal aspect of certain qualities or character. To me that seems like looking at the fruit and not understanding that it is coming from the root.

    #13783
     NickHassan 
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    Hi t8 and sammo,
    So they believe it is only a material world?

    But if they believe there are no spiritual entities why should they believe in the one who is spirit-God?

    I see in their site they say salvation is through faith in God, Jesus and the bible?

    Satan is as well shown as a being in the bible as any other and more clearly shown than Gabriel or Michael?

    Why pick on him?

    #13785
     malcolm ferris 
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    That's right Nick

    ISAIAH 14:12-16
    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

    From reading the literature on those links I would have to consider that this scripture above is not speaking about a person, but a collective evil, If you approach the scriptures like this you will soon be wading knee-deep in nonsense.

    EZEKIEL 28:2-3
    Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
    Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

    This is obviously speaking of the coming Antichrist who will be a man filled with the spirit of the Devil. He is called the Prince of Tyrus here, the King of Tyrus being the spirit of the Devil himself.

    EZEKIEL 28:9
    Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

    This is how the spirit of Satan is finally slain, and punished, in the body of a man.

    EZEKIEL 28:12-15
    Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    If this king of Tyrus here is a concept and not a person then not only has language lost its meaning in the scriptures, but what Nick says would be right, all angels in heaven would be little more than figments of imagination. We would have to seriously doubt the usage of the word 'man' meaning anything more than a concept. We would have to wonder if we were not ourselves no more than imagination.

    Welcome to the REAL world Neo? I don't think so…

    DANIEL 9:21
    Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

    The bible often refers to angelic beings as men, either because they appear as men, or take the form of men in order to be seen on earth…

    #13808
     david 
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    Hey Sammo. I see you're “on” here now. I was just looking through the “fallen angels” discussion on this topic. I see you've been through this all before.
    Whenever an idea that is completely the opposite of what most believe presents itself, it is hard to even wrap your mind around. This idea is just so different than what most are used to.

    I'm wondering if you could in just a few sentences very simply define your beliefs on Satan, the demons (sickenss, right?) and angels (a word which I realize literally means, 'messengers.') I'm not looking for the reasons you believe these things, just wanting to know exactly what you specifically believe.

    Sammo, were you always a Christadelphian?

    #13866
     Sammo 
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    Quote (t8 @ May 18 2006,10:26)

    From what I understand Nick, Christadelphians do not believe in anything that requires faith. So that Heaven is nothing but good thoughts, Satan is adversary. That is at least what one Christadelphian lady explained to me along time ago. Not sure if she represented their beliefs accurately however.


    No, she didn't, and I've already told you so: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….9;st=80. Of course we believe that heaven is a real place.

    Quote (t8 @ May 18 2006,10:26)
    Of course qualities usually come from people or persons. So evil had to come from somebody, just as good did/does. Otherwise how did all these qualities come into existence?


    Evil (as in bad things that happen) comes from God. Sin comes from within our own heart. Been through this all before, but you never got back to me: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=120. Nobody ever gets back to me. Never mind :(

    #13869
     Sammo 
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    Quote (david @ May 19 2006,07:53)
    I'm wondering if you could in just a few sentences very simply define your beliefs on Satan, the demons (sickenss, right?) and angels (a word which I realize literally means, 'messengers.') I'm not looking for the reasons you believe these things, just wanting to know exactly what you specifically believe.


    Hi David, how are you?

    Satan – There is no fallen angel called 'Satan'. The word is used to refer to adversaries, be they good or bad.

    Demons – People in the first century believed that false gods were demons, and caused sickness. This is reflected in the language of the gospels (notably nowhere else).

    Angels – Are immortal beings that serve God. Are incapable of sin, and hence 'falling'.

    Quote (david @ May 19 2006,07:53)
    Sammo, were you always a Christadelphian?


    I grew up in a Christadelphian family, but only got baptised 6 years ago.

    Why aren't we talking about heaven? :(

    God bless

    #13874
     david 
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    Quote
    Evil (as in bad things that happen) comes from God.


    On what do you base this? Does not the entire book of Job declare otherwise? Job may at first have thought the bad things were happening to him because of God, but at first he was wrong. We know it was the adversary (Satan) who was doing these things.
    A normal human couldn't have caused the wind, and the other things that resulted in Job's losses, could he?
    Yes, God allowed those things to happen. God was allowing Job to be tested. In questioning Job's integrity, he was really questioning all humans. Will any human serve God out of a clean heart? God allowed Satan to try to prove his claim. He allowed it. He didn't cause it. The adversary did.

    JAMES 1:13
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”

    How more clear could that be?

    Quote
    Nobody ever gets back to me. Never mind


    Sorry, the three months aren't up yet, are they? I get interested in one thing, spend a lot of time on it, then move on. I will be interested in that subject again. Right now, for some reason, I'm interested in the topic of So called Christians who kill. Don't know why.

    #13876
     NickHassan 
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    Hi sammo,
    Then what of Satan being the “god of this world”?

    #13879
     david 
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    Yes, and who is the “ruler of the world” that Jesus mentioned 3 or 4 times who has no hold on Jesus. It's definitely not God in those verses.

    And in Rev 12, it speaks of Satan (the adversary) the original serpent, also called a dragon who with his angels battled with Michael and his angels, and he was hurled out of heaven. So this adversary or Satan was in heaven at one time.

    I'll check your website again.

    #13890
     t8 
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    Quote (Sammo @ May 22 2006,01:07)

    Quote (t8 @ May 18 2006,10:26)

    From what I understand Nick, Christadelphians do not believe in anything that requires faith. So that Heaven is nothing but good thoughts, Satan is adversary. That is at least what one Christadelphian lady explained to me along time ago. Not sure if she represented their beliefs accurately however.


    No, she didn't, and I've already told you so: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….9;st=80. Of course we believe that heaven is a real place.

    Quote (t8 @ May 18 2006,10:26)
    Of course qualities usually come from people or persons. So evil had to come from somebody, just as good did/does. Otherwise how did all these qualities come into existence?


    Evil (as in bad things that happen) comes from God. Sin comes from within our own heart. Been through this all before, but you never got back to me: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=120. Nobody ever gets back to me. Never mind :(


    I don't read all the posts that are posted here, so obviously I missed that one.

    I thought that lady who preached to me the Christadelphian gospel was off cue in more way than one.

    If Satan isn't a person/identity then where did evil come from according to the Christadelphian doctrine?

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