Satan

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
The strong man is bound, the prince of the world has been judged, the battle won and the slow process of setting men free from his minions continues.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
You say
“You have to look at this chapter in context and not from your false doctrine.”

But Jesus is the truth and his words speak of Satan.
False doctrines come from men who rather see enemies among other men

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Indeed the day of evil, the temptation of the devil, comes to all as it did with Christ.
He overcame Satan by the word and we too have this two edged sword.
We follow him as overcomers

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Flesh produces no good thing and sin can live within.
Flesh shares the blame for the works done through it as vessels are leased for usage.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
You offer confusion with all your guessed options.

“So who is the devil here in Acts 10:38 in which people are suffering from? Let's see it could be powerful Jews or the Roman government that oppressed people, leaving them starved and malnourished. Jesus could also be healing people from the devil within, people facing horrible internal struggles where desires have given way to uncontrollable addictions. “

Our God is not of confusion.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
How bad would it be if our enemy was our own rebellious body, our carnal mind, and every other man.

We could not hope to gain trust in ourselves or in anybody else ever.

Depression and Paranoia and Hopelessness would be our inevitable fate.

But we can be set free and free indeed by the Physician from Gallilee

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 22 2008,12:11)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 21 2008,15:34) Hi Jodi, Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, NOT but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. HEAVENLY PLACES How does your interpretation make any sense given, the words of Jesus? Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.  30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. There are many scriptures that warn us against following our flesh. Ro 6:19 In the manner of men I speak, because of the weakness of your flesh, for even as ye did present your members servants to the uncleanness and to the lawlessness — to the lawlessness, so now present your members servants to the righteousness — to sanctification, Ro 7:5 for when we were in the flesh, the passions of the sins, that [are] through the law, were working in our members, to bear fruit to the death; Ro 7:25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin. Ro 8:3 or what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, Ro 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Ro 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit; Ro 8:6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit — life and peace; Ro 8:7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself, Ro 8:8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. Ro 9:8 that is, the children of the flesh — these [are] not children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for seed; Romans 13:12 the night did advance, and the day came nigh; let us lay aside, therefore, the works of the darkness, and let us put on the armour of the light; 13 as in day-time, let us walk becomingly; not in revellings and drunkennesses, not in chamberings and lasciviousnesses, not in strife and emulation; 14 but put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and for the flesh take no forethought — for desires. 2 Corinthians 7:1 Having, then, these promises, beloved, may we cleanse ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God; Ga 5:16 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete; Ga 5:17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will — these ye may not do; Ga 5:19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Ga 5:24 and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires; Ga 6:8 because he who is sowing to his own flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption; and he who is sowing to the Spirit, of the Spirit shall reap life age-during; Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath — as also the others, Eph 2:15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace, Col 2:13 – Show And you — being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh — He made alive together with him, having forgiven you all the trespasses, Col 2:18 let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and [in] worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, Col 2:23 which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body — not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 1Pe 3:21 also to which an antitype doth now save us — baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, 1Jo 2:16 because all that [is] in the world — the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of the life — is not of the Father, but of the world, Ro 6:6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin; Ro 6:12 Let not then the sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires; Ro 8:10 and if Christ [is] in you, the body, indeed, [is] dead because of sin, and the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness, You have to look at this chapter in context and not from your false doctrine. Paul was not worried that the people would fall into sexual immorality or that they would become thieves, or that they would murder. Paul was not worried about his brethren falling into the lusts of their own flesh. He was worried about them facing upcoming persecution.   Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Nick what does heavenly places mean? In the Old Testament it means the position of authority of a human being as well as the prideful mindset of a human being. We also know that Jewish priests are known as heavenly priests and the temple represents God's place of heaven on earth.  We are told to 'test the spirits', investigate the false prophets. Spirits represent humans. Nick Paul tells the people to stand firm in the Lord when the DAY of evil comes. We have gone through this before. Who beat Paul up and put him in prison? Who was the devil about ready to murder or throw Christians into prison? The wicked spirits in the heavenly places represented the Jews who were out to persecute the Christians. I would not have to seek for other meanings if I would grasp the simple one? Just what is the simple understanding to these scriptures according to you Nick? How is it that WE TODAY wrestle with supernatural beings who are up in heaven? And for those in the DAY that the evil came, what day was that and what happened on that day? What happens if the person doesn't even know if the day came and went, since the devil can influence without anyone even knowing it?   If this scripture is specifically speaking to Christians today that we don't wrestle with flesh and blood, then why do we have all those scriptures warning us about our flesh and our desires? Nick, Jesus gives us a list of sins that come from ourselves, without any outside influence. If your supernatural devil is put to death, we still have a huge problem. So if you think about it your supernatural being is NOT the primary enemy, he is just an influence to the enemy.

Jodi….right on Girl, how easily it is to see if you have the spirit of truth in you to be able to see.

love and peace to you and yours………….gene

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 21 2008,19:00)

Hi Jodi, You say “You have to look at this chapter in context and not from your false doctrine.” But Jesus is the truth and his words speak of Satan. False doctrines come from men who rather see enemies among other men

Nick, have I ever said that Jesus does not speak of Satan?

Does Jesus ever identified Satan as an evil supernatural being?
Jesus does say that he saw Satan fall like lightening from the sky, but that is hardly proof of the Lucifer pride and jealousy falling from heaven story. We already know from the OT how scripture likes to speak of men falling from heaven in a symbolic way.

If you believe that Jesus is the truth and his words speak of Satan then why don't you believe Jesus when he calls a man satan. Why don't you believe Jesus when he identifies Satan as being a human being who has in mind the things of men?

Nick, don't say that false doctrine comes from men who rather see enemies among other men. It has nothing to do with what I'd rather see. If we were talking about what I'd rather see, don't you think that I'd rather see no enemies at all?

Nick how quick you forget that satan in the Old Testament is not one time referred to as being an angel or a supernatural being who is against God and man, but satan is several times directly referred to as men who are against other men.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 21 2008,19:23)

Hi Jodi, You offer confusion with all your guessed options. “So who is the devil here in Acts 10:38 in which people are suffering from? Let's see it could be powerful Jews or the Roman government that oppressed people, leaving them starved and malnourished. Jesus could also be healing people from the devil within, people facing horrible internal struggles where desires have given way to uncontrollable addictions. “ Our God is not of confusion.

Nick my options are not guessed options, they are true options which come from seeing what was actually taking place at that time.

I'll tell you one thing that was not going on at that time was evil spirit beings going around infecting people and tormenting people, and influencing people secretively, with taking time off from that to hang out in their evil kingdom hidden somewhere in the sky.

You don't think that Jesus healed the malnourished beggars outside the city gates? Who was to blame for the abusive treatment of these people, was it not other people? Wouldn't those people be called devils or satans?

You don't think that Jesus healed people from their own sinful addictions?

Nick this is not confusion this is common sense through seeing the world for the way it really is.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Certainly natural men ruled by the adversary are used to do the works of that adversary.

[Shania]

Mark 1:23-28
23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are — the Holy One of God!”

Messiah had not revealed himself to the public yet…. Does our flesh know spiritual things? Do we have the “word of knowledge” in the flesh?

25 “Be quiet!” said Jesus sternly. “Come out of him!” 26 The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.

Can our flesh come out of us??

27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, “What is this? A new teaching — and with authority! He even gives orders to evil spirits and they obey him.”
NIV

This is not something that they had ever seen before. [This authority over evil.] How can our flesh get so bad that we need someone to drive it out of us? After all, if the devil is our flesh, then we could repent and make it submit to the Spirit. Why would it need to be driven out and separated from us. Is that even possible?

Mark 5:2-13
2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!”

Again, he knows who Jesus is… but he has been unable to communicate with anyone. [he was crazy and no one could go near him] This is spiritual. This is because the evil spirit that is in him recognizes the Spirit that is in Jesus. [also the authority] and he is afraid. This is not poosible for a man's flesh to recognize.

8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!”

9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

[Unless you believe that everyone has multiple personalities, (for we all have multiple sin) this cannot be this man's flesh.]

11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
NIV

Can your flesh be driven out of you and sent into something else? This does not make physical or logical sense.

Luke 4:35-36

35 “Be quiet!” Jesus said sternly. “Come out of him!” Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.

36 All the people were amazed and said to each other, “What is this teaching? With authority and power he gives orders to evil spirits and they come out !”
NIV

Can your flesh be ordered to come out? It doesn't seem fair. We are told to put our flesh to death. How come some people can get the “work” done for them?

And here's the kicker:

Matt 12:43-45

43 “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it.

Can my flesh jump out of my body and enter, say, Nick's??? Or how about my dog's body? This sounds sci-fi.

44 Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself,

[so it brings along other people's flesh? Where do these other “spirits” come from?]

and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.
NIV

So, our flesh can be driven out, and return with friends?

Luke 11:24-26

24 “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' 25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.”
NIV

This is really talking about the person who does not fill themselves with the Spirit after their demons are cast out. If they have an “empty house”, the evil will return 7fold. They have not had true repentance and they desire sin and the enemy is then “legally allowed” to influence them

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….You say man is ruled by the adversary, what is the adversary is it a being , or a spirit (intellect) of the person himself. Jodi and I and Jesus, have correctly shown it is the person Himself who is the ADVERSARY. Jesus was correct in calling Peter Satan (adversary) because his carnal mind was functioning as a Satan as all man kind does. imo

[Jodi]

Quote (Shania @ Sep. 21 2008,22:26)

Mark 1:23-28 23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are — the Holy One of God!” Messiah had not revealed himself to the public yet…. Does our flesh know spiritual things? Do we have the “word of knowledge” in the flesh? 25 “Be quiet!” said Jesus sternly. “Come out of him!” 26 The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek. Can our flesh come out of us?? 27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, “What is this? A new teaching — and with authority! He even gives orders to evil spirits and they obey him.” NIV This is not something that they had ever seen before. [This authority over evil.] How can our flesh get so bad that we need someone to drive it out of us? After all, if the devil is our flesh, then we could repent and make it submit to the Spirit. Why would it need to be driven out and separated from us. Is that even possible? Mark 5:2-13 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!” Again, he knows who Jesus is… but he has been unable to communicate with anyone. [he was crazy and no one could go near him] This is spiritual. This is because the evil spirit that is in him recognizes the Spirit that is in Jesus. [also the authority] and he is afraid. This is not poosible for a man's flesh to recognize. 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!” 9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area. [Unless you believe that everyone has multiple personalities, (for we all have multiple sin) this cannot be this man's flesh.] 11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned. NIV Can your flesh be driven out of you and sent into something else? This does not make physical or logical sense. Luke 4:35-36 35 “Be quiet!” Jesus said sternly. “Come out of him!” Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him. 36 All the people were amazed and said to each other, “What is this teaching? With authority and power he gives orders to evil spirits and they come out !” NIV Can your flesh be ordered to come out? It doesn't seem fair. We are told to put our flesh to death. How come some people can get the “work” done for them? And here's the kicker: Matt 12:43-45 43 “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Can my flesh jump out of my body and enter, say, Nick's??? Or how about my dog's body? This sounds sci-fi. 44 Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, [so it brings along other people's flesh? Where do these other “spirits” come from?] and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. NIV So, our flesh can be driven out, and return with friends? Luke 11:24-26 24 “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' 25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.” NIV This is really talking about the person who does not fill themselves with the Spirit after their demons are cast out. If they have an “empty house”, the evil will return 7fold. They have not had true repentance and they desire sin and the enemy is then “legally allowed” to influence them

Shania, the evil spirits of which Jesus cast out, were not causing them to sin. The evil spirits were inflicting the person with confusion of mind, madness, blindness. The scriptures say that Jesus healed, or cured them. The OT is clear that it is God that sends evil spirits on people to inflict them with confusion of mind, madness, and blindness. Just read Deuteronomy 28.

God made us weak, he gave us a corruptible body. Our physical bodies affect our decisions. One man brought sin and DEATH into the world, and through death all men would sin. It is not through God allowing some supernatural being to influence us to sin. The influence of sin came through the punishment God gave to Adam and Eve which was death. A corruptible body, a body that must meet physical needs in order to live automatically sets it's mind on the body being preoccupied to serve its own needs. Jesus overcame the flesh's desires with God's Spirit working in him, he denied his flesh and did not let it rule over him. The mind of Jesus followed God instead of the forces of the flesh that have led all man to sin.

Christians are suppose to live believing that Jesus was resurrected and now has immortality, and that we are promised the same. We are suppose to live embracing that truth and use it not for an OPPORTUNITY for our flesh to sin, but giving us strength to DENY the flesh.

Lu 1:79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, To guide our feet into the way of peace.”

God created the darkness, how man has chosen to serve that darkness is what has created ALL the evil in this world.

Jesus Christ destroyed that darkness and we should live in it no longer, but live knowing we have eternal life. By this knowledge we have strength to deny our flesh and live not for this life, but for the life to come.

Acts 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

Ro 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Why were we
SLAVES of sin? Because of our BODY. Why was our body weak to sin, because the knowledge of death ruled over our actions. There is NO discussion here of a supernatural being, and we are given a clear picture here as to what and whom is man's adversary.

9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. …………..13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

What does it mean we have been set free from sin? How is it that this is true? Death no longer has dominion in our flesh, and thus our bodies are set free from sin.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

1Co 15:55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

God created the darkness, how man has chosen to serve that darkness is what has created ALL the evil in this world.

God does not need a supernatural being to test us, DEATH does a fine job of it all on it's own. Man does not need a supernatural being to lead it to sin, our body does a fine job of it all on it's own.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
The design work is God's.
How He chooses to work is His choice.
But men have never been our true enemies but all can be saved.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 22 2008,11:21)

Hi Jodi, The design work is God's. How He chooses to work is His choice. But men have never been our true enemies but all can be saved.

Nick, do we or do we not live in world known as Survival of the Fittest?

James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

The devil was defined for us in verse 1&2, our enemy keeping us from God is our own desires for pleasure. This goes quite well with James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

Nick you keep saying that it is a celestial being that draws us towards sin and is thus our adversary. Show me the scripture that says that?

On the other hand we have direct scripture telling us WHAT DOES draw us away from God, and that is the ENTICING of our OWN desires.

Re 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The devil here represents a human authority which is existent upon fulfilling man's own desires.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Here the devil represents a man fulfilling his own desires.

Nick, it does not take a supernatural being to create enemies between men, all it takes is for one of those men to be working only for his own fulfillments. No offense Nick, but to me that is really a no brainer concept.

Nick, I would also like to add that notice how our desires are just that, OUR desires. You seem to try can create this non biblical idea that a supernatural being creates the desires in us and then we are guilty for choosing to follow them.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Some would say we are our own worst enemies.
They would be wrong of course as we have an enemy, an accuser of the brethren.

Are men our enemies?
Proverbs 16:7
When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

The 'god' of this world is specifically said to be our own nature.

Really, and just where is the scripture that specifically says that the “god of this world (cosmos) is a mans nature or belly?

This is another example of your misuse of scripture.

In whom the god of this world (cosmos) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Cor 4:4

So let me see, man’s belly who is “the god” of the cosmos blinds men’s hearts.

Notice jodi, it doesn’t say “the god’s” of this world blinds men or because men serve their bellies (god’s) they are blinded. It specifically says “the god” singular with the definite article (which apparently you ignore Greek rules) has blinded the minds (plural) of them which believe not.

So since you think this god is mans flesh or belly then how do you interpret this…

Ye are of your father “the devil”, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

So to you Yeshua is saying their father is their bellies? So they follow the lust of their bellies and their bellies were murderers from the beginning, and their bellies remained not in the truth and their bellies are the father of lies?

You make way too much inference and additions to clear scriptures.

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

Jesus said people do not follow God, but their OWN BELLIES they serve. Do you understand what that means?

Yes. But apparently you don’t. Men can make many things their gods. But Yeshua was not speaking to his belly or his flesh or sinful nature in the wilderness. Yeshua was not casting out bellies that possessed people.

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

Earthly things, are the things according to our nature, hence we serve our bellies, the things from our very nature.

No the believer in Yeshua who has the Spirit of God in him does not serve his lower nature if he walks in the Spirit and not according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2:2, 3

the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Jodi notice the definite article “the” and the singular masculine noun “prince” which is the Greek word “archon” which means; ‘1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader’.  

It’s found 37 times in the NT and in every case is referring to a sentient being.

Notice this prince or spirit of the air in contrast to the flesh. Is the flesh a spirit? Does the flesh have power in the air? Does the flesh work in the flesh? The serpent feeds on the works of men’s flesh; this is mostly how he controls them. Remember the serpent’s punishment was that he would eat the dust of the ground from which the flesh came.

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

All is vanity if you think you are different from the animals. We have the same instincts as they do, these instincts if we serve them create all the evil in the world, this is why our adversary is repeatedly in the bible shown to be from man's flesh.

Again show us the scripture that says “diabolos” is man’s flesh. “diabolos” means; 1) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
a) a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2) metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
There is no indication of flesh here.

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

How weak your argument is WJ, and everyone else, who have to keep using Revelation to try and prove your position, taking what is a sign with great symbols and interpreting what you choose to as literal so it fits into a made up story that does not exist in the bible.

No, how weak is your argument to minimize the clear teachings of the book of Revelation to fit your man made doctrine. Is this “revelation” of yours supported by any scholars anywhere? Are there any resources you could point us to that supports your theories?

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God is not the author of sin, neither is some supernatural being.

Correct. God is not the author of sin. But you disagree with the master as far as a supernatural being.

For you are the children of “your father the Devil“, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

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Notice how Satan is in the presence of God, the bible says ONLY the righteous do dwell in God's presence. A sinful angel cannot be in the presence of the Lord.

Really, Then why were they cast out of God’s presence?

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Luke 10:18

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:7-9

Of course you have your white out to blot out these scriptures clearly showing their was a war in heaven. You would say that Michael the Archangel contended with man’s belly over the flesh of the body of Moses…

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil “diabolos” he disputed about the body of Moses, du
rst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

So a man was able to dispute with Michael the archangel? So the Lord rebuked man’s flesh or belly?

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Notice how God TRUSTS Satan to do to Job what THEY AGREED upon, and that Satan KEPT that TRUST.

Really, so now “God’s friend” not adversary moved God’s hand against God’s servant Job?

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although 'thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause”. Job 2:3

So God “trusted” satan who desired to destroy his servant without cause?

Again, to prove a point God “allowed” satan to lay his hand on Job without taking his life to show the Angels that Job was perfect in all his ways. Just as God allowed Pilate to hand over Yeshua to be crucified when the Father could have stopped them.

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

To try and fit the actual behavior of Satan in the book of Job to the story of a jealous fallen angel who hates God is creating nothing but a pure lie.

Look again…

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Job 2:3

If satan wanted to destroy Job, God’s servant without cause then he hated Job and therefore hated God.

So I guess you need to get out the whiteout again or change your theology again.

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So according to you WJ, God finds it necessary to have some sinful being do His work for Him? Talk about portraying God with a serious lack of honor and integrity. According to you, God with his own hands does not afflict us, He just ALLOWS someone else to do so? Lies!

No I just believe the scriptures as they read without special pleading and inference.

The scriptures clearly show that God gave satan permission to afflict Job. I never said God doesn’t punish evil or rebellion. I said God does not bring afflictions and sickness or disease on his servants, those who follow him.

So who is telling lies? Scriptures show God allows satan to afflict or persecute God’s servants as he did with Yeshua and Peter and Paul and every other child of God who is in the battle against the prince of the power of the air, and the spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies

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So the affliction that Job receives must have come from a sinful angel because according to you God would never do such things with His own hands. You IMO have a very warped understanding of who God is.

No it is you who has the warped understanding of who God is. For you say that the enemy of Job who desires his life without cause is a friend of God.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

Let's see what Job is afflicted with, –The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away–indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” –“The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” Oh WAIT A MINUTE, Satan had fire FROM GOD come down to burn up the sheep. Say what?? This only makes sense if Satan is an angel of God, which makes sense given the bible tells us that only YHWH has the powers to inflict. If the Satan in Job has any powers, it would have to be from the Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit works through satan the one who desires Job’s life without cause?

Lies. The men that reported to Job who saw the fire naturally would think it was fire from God as Job thought his afflictions came from God. They did not have the revelation that we have that satan was behind these “miraculous” occurrences.

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–17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” —7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. Let's look at what God directly tells us that He does by His hands to people, and see if it relates in a similar manner to the same kind of infliction that Job received. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them.

The example you give was to those who were in rebellion against YHWH. Not the same thing for Job was perfect and upright and eschewed evil.

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

The Adversary in the book of Job is NOT a fallen angel, or any other sort of supernatural being that is against God.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Job 2:3

So God’s Holy Angels want to destroy God’s servants without cause?

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Heb 1:13, 14

You should do a study on the ministry of God’s Angels, and you will see that they are not to destroy the righteous. You may even begin to see what 1000’s of real scholars believe which is totally against your heretical teachings.

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Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.” If there is NO OTHER that has the powers to create darkness and calamity as we see God create in Deuteronomy 28,…

Again, you add to the scriptures your own words. YHWH is not “the only” one to create darkness and calamity. Is God the one who lies, steals, murders and rapes? These are calamitys of men. Man also can do these things as well as satan who sought to destroy Job without cause.

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…and if we see according to the words of Jesus that such sins as murder, adultery, fornication, lying, stealing, evil thoughts, pride, blasphemy, covetousness, deceit, foolishness, lewdness come from man alone, then I ask what sort of darkness is left for this supposed supernatural being to bring on this earth?

The darkness of which satan has a kingdom which Yeshua said cannot be divided against itself. If this was man or his belly or flesh as you say then it does not agree with Yeshua's words for we know man is divided against himself. Again, Yeshua speaks of “a kingdom” singular not kingdoms.

I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome “the wicked one”. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 1 John 2:13

have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome “the wicked one”. 1 John 2:14

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and “that wicked one” toucheth him not.1 John 5:18

Not as Cain, who was of “that wicked one”, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 1 John 3:12

Who is “that wicked one”? Again, with the definite article showing that the wicked one is a sentient being. Notice 1 John 3:12 where it says that Cain was of that wicked one agreeing with Yeshua’s words…

Ye are of your father “the devil”, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he
speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

But you disagree with Yeshua by saying that “Cain” is their father. Just as the Lord has spirits that are subject to him so does the god of this world have spirits subject to him.

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

God certainly does not need Him to do His own work.

Who says that God needs satan to destroy his own without cause? Yet satan does serve a purpose as the scriptures show in the temptations of Job, Yeshua and Peter and Paul and every other servant of God.

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Man we see certainly does not need him to cause him to commit the worst of sins.

The worst sin of all commited by man was committed by Adam and Eve who brought sin and death into the whole human race. Read your Bible, satan that old serpent we read of in the book of Revelation was present to tempt them.

But you would say that was Adam and Eve’s own sinful flesh, therefore denying that God had made them perfect and called his work “good”. Would God have created man with a sinful nature? No, satan tempted them and they failed to obey God.

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Taking a man made story and plugging it into the bible as the definition for the Devil and Satan, is NOT truth.

Do you have any degrees in theology or Greek or Hebrew? Your doctrine apposes 1000’s of scholars and commentators that know a lot more about Greek and Hebrew than you.

You can’t even give us any sources that support you theories.

Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)

I am going to determine the identity of our adversary according to the undisputable facts given to us in the bible.

You haven’t shown indisputable facts, all you have done is created a lot of confusion and ambiguity over clear scriptures that support the fact that there is a real sentient being called satan the devil who apposes God and his people.

These are the Biblical facts.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although 'thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause”. Job 2:3

So tell us Jodi, is satan the “friend of God” or is he according to the scriptures an enemy of God and his servants?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
You say
“Re 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The devil here represents a human authority which is existent upon fulfilling man's own desires.”

Not so.

The devil uses carnal men to do his will.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
“James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.”

Flesh belongs to the world and that world's prince opposes God, using men to do his work.

[Author]

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