Satan

[charity]

so…This may sound funny
yet it only takes one mind to think things, It only takes one mentally ill mind to teach many how to merely behave themselves mentally illey…

The power of Repartition…..

I WENT TO SEE THE LINE,
THAT WAITED TO SEE THE PAINTING
THEN SAID I tomyself…this is insane..,
How did?…
and how beautifully are the paintings of this roof !
As I looked around all Eyes were on the Mona Lisa,
in which I thought was quite plain, was I stupid….people come from all over the earth to see this?

And how man draws Man, and drawn Men draw even more men,
Famousness strikes.
Like the insanity that lost its ability to discern against long standing religions.
With power, people with mentally illey learned behaviors large numbers to intimidate or accuse those trying to get free of their gates….where Satan stands to devour their disobedient, stubborn little carcass for not being of the same mind?

my two bob worth?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi GB

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2008,16:32)

WJ……Jodi is not the only one who did not believe in devils and demons, Sir Isaac Newton also did and He could speak and write Hebrew, Greek, and Latin Fluently and is considered one of the most intelligent men who ever lived and spent most of His life analyzing scriptures and he came to the conclusion there is no devil or demons that jump in and out of bodies also.

Sir Isaac Newton was a scientist and a philosopher. I have not found any information on him being able to speak fluently Hebrew, Greek or Latin, and in fact as far as I can tell he had no ability to translate a single scripture. Can you point us to some sources that validate your claim.

Even if what you say is true, would the opinion of one man be more trustworthy than the opinions of 100s of Greek and Hebrew and Latin scholars?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2008,16:32)

The people of those days considered anyone with mental illness as demon possessed they simply did not know the difference, Jesus dealt with the people on their level of understanding.

So what you are saying is Jesus was being intellectually dishonest by not telling the people that they believed in a myth. So he just played right along by talking too and pretending to cast out these demons and even teaching his disciples how to do the same. In fact he did a couple of magical tricks like make the swine commit suicide to convince the people that there really were demons. Is this what you mean?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2008,16:32)

Modern science and medicine has proved multiple disorders are not demon possessed people . But are people suffering from a forms of mental disorder. Modern religion is stuck in first century understanding and thats why they still believe in demons and devils that jump in and out of people.

So we are to believe modern science over the scriptures? Just because you have not had any experience with demons or satan does not invalidate the experience of those who have. How can modern science possibly know what the Hebrews were afflicted with 2000 years ago?

You should believe Yeshua’s own words.

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matt 12:43-45

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2008,16:32)

But Jesus said that the Pharisees were devils and Peter was a Satan. Do you also believe that and if not how do you explain it then?

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Peter was being influenced by satan to rebuke Yeshua. Demons and satan can speak through men as we have already seen. Jesus is clearly rebuking Peter and the voice of satan speaking through him.

The Word of God is clear. There are spiritual enemies, sentient beings that are not human that can possess humans and speak through them. They are the spiritual wickedness in high places, in a kingdom of darkness that Yeshua says is not divided against itself.

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…..then why rebuke Peter then if he wasn't the one doing it. Jesus didn't say get behind me you Satan that is IN YOU Peter did He. Peter was coming from a worldly view point which was in Him , he therefore acted and spoke that way as all men do who do not have God's Spirit in them, they are Adversaries (or SATAN'S) of God He Called Peter Satan, not someone jumping in and out of Him. Satan is the state of man without The Spirit of in Him. Jesus called the Pharisees devils. Even Judas it says the devil interred in Him, but was that a being that was not Him and if so why hold him responsible for something something else is doing them.

WJ…… i have read where Newton did indeed speak and write Greek, Hebrew, and Latin fluently,even some of His own writings are written in these languages by Him. Just Go to the Newton Project and read the material available. I can't remember exactly where in the many papers i have read about him that talked about His Linguistic abilities i read it in, Ill try to find it for you. Many of His papers on religion are now being published to the public.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi GB

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2008,14:05)

WJ…..then why rebuke Peter then if he wasn't the one doing it. Jesus didn't say get behind me you Satan that is IN YOU Peter did He.  Peter was coming from a worldly view point which was in Him , he therefore acted and spoke that way as all men do who do not have God's Spirit in them, they are Adversaries (or SATAN'S)  of God He Called Peter Satan, not someone jumping in and out of Him.

Yeshua rebuked Peter because he was inspired by satan to speak the words. Peter yielded to the thoughts that satan put in his mind. That’s why he rebuked him. Satan can put thoughts in man’s heart just as he did with Judas…

And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; John 13:2

The tempter came to Peter as he did Yeshua.

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Matt 4:3

Yeshua was also speaking to satan to get behind him.

Jesus also warned Peter that satan desired to sift him as wheat

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Luke 22:31

Yeshua was not speaking in some kind of code that Peter had to figure out, like it is his old man, or he would have plainly said “Peter your flesh or old man has desired to sift you as wheat”. We don’t need any special pleading or interpretation to read what is plainly written in these examples

As far as satan being able to possess someone, how do you explain these scriptures…

Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Luke 22:3

And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.John 13:27

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2008,14:05)

Satan is the state of man without The Spirit of in Him. Jesus called the Pharisees devils. Even Judas it says the devil interred in Him, but was that a being that was not Him and if so why hold him responsible for something else is doing them.

Where is the scripture that states Jesus called them devils?
Please show me one scripture where Paul, Peter or John even infers that “diabolos” or “daimonia” is the old man or old nature or flesh of man.

Jesus didn’t call them devils; he said they were of their “father” the devil. They belonged to the Kingdom of darkness of which Yeshua spoke of saying his kingdom is not divided against itself. The Greek word for Kingdom is “basileia”, which means;

1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

This same satan is referred to by Paul as “the god of this world”…

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Cor 4:4

The word for god as you know is “theos” a masculine noun which is only found in the NT as referring to a sentient being. The word “world’ is “aion” which means;

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

So satan for the unbeliever is the god of the present time, and of the lust of their father they will do. John 8:44

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2008,14:05)

WJ…… i have read where Newton did indeed speak and write Greek, Hebrew, and Latin fluently,even some of His own writings are written in these languages by Him. Just Go to the Newton Project and read the material available. I can't remember exactly where in the many papers i have read about him that talked about His Linguistic abilities i read it in, Ill try to find it for you. Many of His papers on religion are now being published to the public.

There is nothing anywhere that I can find to validate your claim. Even Wikopedia has no information of Sir Isaac Newton having any formal education in Greek, Hebrew or Latin studies. Check it out here.

Again, the Bible is clear on this subject and doesn’t need an interpretation of the interpretations.

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ..Jesus said to the pharisees, you are of your Father the devil did he not. Judas became an adversary when he from his own mind he entertained the idea of betraying Jesus, It was not some being jumping in him and causing Him to think that way , If that were the case then Judas is not responsible of the betrayal of Christ as scripture shows. And that would apply to Peter and all the rest of humanity also. And no man can be held accountable for sin if the devil made him do it. WJ i believe the carnal mind is and adverary or Satan to God.

[charity]

Apparently Satan will not cast out Satan
The deceived mind follows the command, keeping him vessels is for believers
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
And I would be suspious that even he himself would OR PERHAPS NOT KNOW..

[Jodi]

Hi WJ and everyone,

I have been working on a post in response to WJ, but have been really busy, hopefully I will have it finished later today or tomorrow.

Our hike on the Rogue River this year was fantastic. We had the largest group ever, which gave me more worries, but everyone did awesome, and we all had a great time.

We did see one black bear, which is always exciting, luckily he or she was across the river!

[Jodi]

O.K WJ, I am back for another round!

I must say I am rather confused by you.

I am yet to hear a biblical explanation from you or Nick of just what these demons are exactly? Can you tell me using scripture what they are, where they came from, what their purpose is? How is it they get their powers? Why is it that we see no example in the Old Testament of demon possession? Why is it that Paul does not warn people of these body possessing invisible beings?

You said “Here is a challenge for you. Show me one example before Yeshua’s resurrection of anyone who was not possessed with an unclean spirit that knew Yeshua and called him the Son of God besides Peter who was given the revelation directly from the Father.”

We see that the Father, through an angel, revealed to Mary and Joseph that what was conceived in her was the Son of the Most High.

Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,……..35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Here we see that John was preaching to people that a man was coming who was the Lamb of God and who was the Son of God.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.” 35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!”

The Spirit revealed it to John and then John came to reveal it to all who would listen.

Here we see that Nathanael declared Yeshua as the Son of God without the Father revealing it to him.

John 1:43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.” 44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote–Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” 46 “Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?” Nathanael asked. “Come and see,” said Philip. 47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false.” 48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.” 49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.” 50 Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that.”

Here again we see an example of someone believing in Yeshua as the Son of God without the direct revelation of God the Father.

John 11:24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 “Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”

Here we see Peter at first having doubts about Yeshua, but that the other disciples were able to believe.

Matthew 14:26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It's a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear. 27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid.” 28 “Lord, if it's you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.” 29 “Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?” 32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Now we see here in chapter 16 Peter confess his belief.

Matthew 16:15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”[/b]

WJ, you said,” Wrong again! They crucified Jesus because he said he was the Son of God. To the Hebrew claiming to be a Son of God was the same as claiming to be equal to him, for it would have meant you came directly from YHWH. The concept of a Son of God let alone “The Son of God” was not known until Yeshua came on the scene and revealed it through Peter and later the Apostles. Or else why did it take the Father to reveal this to Peter? It was upon that revelation that the church would be built, and Yeshua makes it known that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

Your statement, “ The concept of a Son of God let alone ‘The Son of God’ was not known until Yeshua came on the scene and revealed it through Peter and later the Apostles,” is clearly false as I have just proved through the previous scriptures. Peter believed through the revelation by the Father, however according to Matthew 14, the other Apostles believed BEFORE Peter and WITHOUT the revelation of the Father.

I find this to be confusing by you as well, you said, ”But you would explain the phenomena away simply by saying the revelation given to Peter is a different thing, and then you twist the scriptures by claiming the demons or unclean spirits didn't mean what they said when they called Yeshua the Son of God, when clearly the scriptures say that “they knew him” and because of this Yeshua silenced them. Jesus said that it was not flesh and blood that revealed it to Peter, which would mean that these unclean spirits were more than just men for they clearly understood who he was.”

First and foremost, the bible does not say that the unclean spirits were revealed to know Yeshua as the Son of God by the Father, you are making that assumption. Second what does it matter if the Father revealed it to the unclean spirits? How does that in and of itself prove that the unclean spirits are manipulating supernatural creatures?

Did the unclean spirits truly believe that Yeshua was the Son of God, or were they just repeating what they might have heard? Only God and Yeshua would know if them calling Yeshua the Son of God was something that they sincerely believed. Where do you get off declaring that the unclean spirits CLEARLY understood who Yeshua was? Many people at that time were confessing that Yeshua was the Son of God, did they all clearly understand everything about Yeshua? I really don’t think so. We don’t even clearly understa
nd everything about Yeshua and his Father. You and I certainly don’t agree on what it means for you’re a Trinitarian and I am not. As well, we know that many confessed, but this was a vein confession, mere words, but not from the heart. Yeshua says, Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Let’s clarify one more of your faulty ideas, that is you thinking that Yeshua telling the demons not to speak had something to do with the fact that they were demons. This is not true, for we see Yeshua telling other people, even the disciples at one point to be silent and not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Matthew16:20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Matthew 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all. 16 Yet He warned them not to make Him known,17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 18 “Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles. 19 He will not quarrel nor cry out, Nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory; 21 And in His name Gentiles will trust.”

WJ, you said, “Jesus said that it was not flesh and blood that revealed it to Peter, which would mean that these unclean spirits were more than just men for they clearly understood who he was.”

This does not make any sense. Peter was flesh and blood and yet he knew that Yeshua was the Son of God. Where does it say you have to be more then just a man to understand that Yeshua is the Son of God, or rather, ‘SAY,’ that Yeshua was the Son of God, means that you must be more then flesh and blood?

[Jodi]

WJ you asked,” Is there anyway an honest person can read this scripture and infer that these demons or unclean spirits were sickness or mental illness and that Yeshua is telling mental illness to go out into the abyss? Why all the extra biblical use of words?

Why doesn’t the scripture say he healed their minds of mental illness, or he healed them of their madness? Why do the witnesses use the terms “cast out”, “came out”, “possessed”, Etc?”

Yes, let’s be honest. This is what I know. The demon possessed are spoken of in the bible as also interchangeably being evil spirits or unclean spirits. Those who are demon possessed are said to be cured, or healed and are healed under the same manner as those inflicted with diseases, through the use of mere words by Yeshua or by his laying on of hands.

Mt 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.

Matthew 15:21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.” ………………….28 Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mt 17:18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

Luke 6:18 who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by evil spirits were cured, 19 and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.

Lu 9:42 Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father

We clearly see here that people who are demon possessed are being HEALED!
Those who were troubled by or SUFFERING, as the daughter in Matthew 5 was suffering terribly from her inflicting evil spirit, were suffering from such things as blindness, deafness, muteness, confusion, madness, and convulsions. I believe it is safe to say that those who were said to be demon possessed were acting in a strange manner, a manner in which the person did not seem like themselves, a manner in which it seemed like another person was inside of them. Regardless of what you believe the cause to the behavior and the symptoms were, we know TODAY, that ALL of these symptoms and behaviors can be explained medically and that they reflect a mental disease or condition.

Side Note- both John and Jesus were accused of being possessed by a demon. This shows just how loosely the term, to be demon possessed, was being used. By merely saying something that was unorthodox according to traditional beliefs would render an accusation of demon possession.

Let us pay CLOSE attention to the following passage-

Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.” 19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth. 21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” 23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. 28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”

Here we see Yeshua speaking to the sickness itself. Yeshua also spoke to a fever, rebuking it to come out of a woman. Yeshua also spoke to the wind. We see in the beginning God spoke to the animals telling them to be fruitful and multiply. So to answer your question,” Is there anyway an honest person can read this scripture and infer that these demons or unclean spirits were sickness or mental illness and that Yeshua is telling mental illness to go out into the abyss?” I believe the answer would be YES indeed ACCORDING to scripture. But you are too blind to see what the scriptures say, you refuse to look at the whole picture of which the bible tells. Yes, Yeshua talks to the disease, and when the disease talks back it is the person speaking according to the disease that has control over his mind and body. If you studied certain mental illnesses you could easily understand this. If you headed the word of God you would admit that it is only God who can cause people to be deaf and dumb. (Exodus 4:11)

Notice how this unclean spirit was said to be deaf and dumb, and notice how Yeshua speaks to the DEAF spirit, and how the deaf spirit is able to HEAR him and follow his command. That is rather odd, don’t you think?

This is what I find very interesting about those possessed by evil or unclean spirits, if the evil spirits are free agents against Yeshua and God, then why don’t they just flee away from the person that their inflicting at the sight of Yeshua coming? Why do they wait around and OBEY Yeshua’s commands???

[Jodi]

Here are some things to keep track of,

-the evil spirits never leave the bodies on their OWN accord, they are cast out by Yeshua’s commands.

-they FOLLOW Yeshua’s commands

-those who are possessed are said to be troubled or suffering from the evil spirit

-those who have the evil spirit cast out are said to be healed or cured

-the evil spirits who are possessing a person are not causing or influencing the person to consciously do bad things. Which this is what reflects my entire position, that there is nothing outside of mankind that can cause a man to sin, which is that of Yeshua’s position, who says and I quote him, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

The evil spirits that are said to possess a person are NOT INFLUENCING the person to commit sins, but rather are inflicting them in manners of physical and mental pain of which Yeshua HEALS them of.

The authors of the Gospels do NOT know everything. They have been revealed certain things and are inspired by God to write. We see that their writings are not perfect and that they stand under a limited perspective. This is easily seen by the mere fact that the Gospels do not perfectly agree with one another and that their stories vary and differ. When taking into account the entire bible we can see more distinctively that the Gospels were not in anyway trying to reveal to us that we should be fearing any other supernatural power other then that of YHWH.

The Old Testament shows repeatedly that the Israelites went after false gods and worshipped false idols. The word demon in English coming from the Greek word daimon would represent, to those loyal to the word of God according to the prophets, a false image or being. Not only did the Greeks believe in demons but so did just about everyone else, including the Egyptians, Babylonians, Philistines, the list goes on and on. If a Jew believed in a demon, according to the Old Testament that directly meant that they believed in a false image.

If one takes the time to study the false beliefs of the pagans they would see that pagans believed that demons were the cause of ALL diseases and illnesses. A person who acted crazy represented a person not just inflicted by a demon, but still had the demon inside them. Even such conditions as headaches and fevers were thought to be caused by a specific demon. People would then have images of these demons in their homes in order to protect themselves from them. Demons represented beings under the gods but more powerful then men. They often looked like across between man and beast.

All throughout the Old Testament God warns the Israelites not to go after false gods, their demons and their images. All throughout the Old Testament we see that the Israelites do indeed believe in false gods and make for themselves images of those gods. Just what did it mean to believe in a false god, it meant that you believed as the pagans did, and what did the pagans believe, that demons under their gods caused all illnesses and diseases, and that they could even possess your whole body.

Deuteronomy 32:17They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.

Psalms 106:35 But they mingled with the Gentiles And learned their works; 36 They served their idols, Which became a snare to them. 37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus they were defiled by their own works, And played the harlot by their own deeds.

The Israelites strayed from the TRUTH, and feared other gods. Fearing other gods meant that they falsely believed that demons could cause diseases and illnesses.

Deuteronomy 6:1 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the Lord your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged.

De 13:4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.

Why should we fear God and hold fast to Him? Because He is the one who brings about curses, diseases, madness, confusion of mind, famine, calamity, darkness. YHWH is the one who sends evil spirits upon people to torment their minds and bodies, such as what he did to Saul and King Nebuchadnezzar.

WJ I don’t NEED to sight Scholars, I have the simple scriptures to back what I say! I have a brain that God gave me, in which I use to see the whole picture, instead of blindly following the mainstream Christian church, which is a harlot to God’s words.

Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”

Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”

I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”

Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”

Those who say we must fear fallen angels and their possession and evil spirits that represent invisible beings against God, are plain as day following the HARLOT and are themselves the blind leading the blind, prostituting themselves and committing adultery to God and His words. The mainstream Christian belief in fallen angels becoming demons represents a deceitful cover up, because what they are really believing in is the exact same false beliefs as the pagans.

Deuteronomy 28:28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.

Ps 31:6 I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the Lord.

Isa 45:20 “Gather together and come; assemble, you fugitives from the nations. Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save.

Jer 2:8 The priests did not ask, 'Where is the Lord?' Those who deal with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me. The prophets prophesied by Baal, following worthless idols.

Jer 7:30 “'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it.

Reminder, what were these detestable idols? They were known as DEMONS half man and half animal, higher then man but lower then the gods in power, they could make themselves invisible and they would come and inflict you with a headache or a disease or possess your whole body making you a crazy person. Jews put these false demons in their houses and feared them.

Jer 10:5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.”

Jer 10:14 Everyone is senseless and without knowledge; every goldsmith is shamed by his idols. His images are a fraud; they have no breath in them.

Jer 18:15 Yet my people have forgotten me; they burn incense to worthless idols, which made them stu
mble in their ways and in the ancient paths. They made them walk in bypaths and on roads not built up.
Jer 32:34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. worthless idols that did them no good.

Habakkuk 2:18“Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak.

Zec 10:1 Ask the Lord for rain in the springtime; it is the Lord who makes the storm clouds. He gives showers of rain to men, and plants of the field to everyone. 2 The idols speak deceit, diviners see visions that lie; they tell dreams that are false, they give comfort in vain.

The Old Testament sets up very clearly that YHWH ALONE has the powers to bring about curses, that there is no other supernatural power that can do such things. False gods and demons are not real, they have no powers.

Were the authors of the Gospels like the Pharisees and many of the other Jews at the time, who feared false gods and their demons, believing that they were the cause of diseases and illnesses? Who is to say for sure, we don’t know how much the authors kept with the revelations of the prophets. The point of their writings was to show that Yeshua was the Son of God and by such he could heal and cure people from everything and anything. We see that they used interchangeably the words demon possession with unclean or evil spirit, was this to show us that to them demon possession did not represent the false beliefs of demons, but rather just stood for evil spirits, of which we know first hand from the Old Testament that God sends upon people? Whichever one the truth may be, one thing is for certain, when a person takes in the word of scripture, the knowledge we have obtained of pagan beliefs in demons, and the knew understandings found in the medical field in relation to the brain and the human body, the traditional mainstream Christian belief of invisible beings setting out to do mankind harm, can be seen as false and rather foolish.

We see clearly in the Gospels that the Pharisees believed that demons were real. Beelzebub was a false god from the Philistine city of Ekron. As well, the false book, ‘The Testament of Solomon,’ shows the absurdity of the belief by Jews in a character known as Beelzebub. Do you get that WJ, even the Pharisees in the time of Jesus believed that false gods and demons had powers. They were adulterers who went after pagan beliefs and did not stay loyal to the word of God.

The bible is clear, it is YHWH and HIS POWERS that HE gives to HIS messengers that are the ONLY supernatural powers that can cause any sort of darkness onto man.

1Corinthians10:17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread. 18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

Paul SPEAKS CLEARLY and he is consistent with the Old Testament of demons representing false beings that the Israelites went prostituting after. Demons are being represented here as FASLE IDOLS. If you have fellowship with a demon, does that mean you are allowing something REAL to come in and possess your mind, or that you are allowing yourself to follow false beliefs? The later of course.

The truth that is clearly established in the Old Testament is that God causes famines, diseases, illnesses and things such as mental confusion and madness, however the pagans believed that such things were caused by demons. The demons however which were thought to be causing all the trouble were really YHWH’s powers doing such. Therefore it could be said that YHWH was actually the demons. When God warns people not to follow and fellowship with the demons, it would obviously mean that they are not to believe that they are real or that their powers are real.

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Jodi,
Welcome back it's a good post indeed. I appreciate your concern on this thread 'Satan'. But why don't you share your thought on 'preexistence' ?

Love to you
Adam

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Thanks for your response.

Since you say that I am of the Harlot and blind, and imply also that the 100s of Greek and Hebrew scholars and commentators are also blind, and pretty much everyone else on this sight are all of the harlot, and that you are the only one with a brain and the truth, I doubt if there is anymore convincing truth or evidence I or anyone else can say or show you that will change your mind.

However, I would appreciate that you answer the following questions which it seems you keep avoiding while plastering your own apologetics in response.

1. How do you explain that the Greek shows the evil spirits doing the action as LU has pointed out.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2008,11:29)

It is the Greek active voice that the verbs were written in that tells us that the spirits did the coming out and the entering into the pigs.  These actions didn't happen to the spirits, they (the spirits) did the actions.  As I stated in my previous post, they did these actions in response to the Lord's direction, no question about that.  Do you understand the concept of the active and passive voice in Greek?

2. When Yeshua was tempted by satan, was it his unclean spirit or old man or old nature in him that he was having a conversation with? Did he lead himself to the pinnacle and quote to himself the scriptures? Was he telling his old nature that it was to worship God and him only shall he serve? Was the evil spirit cast out of him or was he healed?

3. Can you show me “one” scripture in Paul’s, Peter or John’s writings that says the old man or old nature of man or the flesh of man is the “Daimonia”?

4. Can you give us some credible references for your belief that evil spirits or demons are illnesses or sicknesses or madness?

I have others, but that will suffice for now.

Again Jodi, we do not need a translation of the translations. The scriptures generally are to be taken literally as they are without special pleading and inference. That is how most false doctrines are started. The experts of Greek and Hebrew have already done the translating. Not meaning that we cannot compare scripture with scriptures and check out the Greek and Hebrew meanings, but it is not for us to change the translations, unless you want to rewrite the scriptures.

Blessings WJ

[david]

Quote

They crucified Jesus because he said he was the Son of God.

–wj

I'm glad to see you're making progress WJ. :>

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2008,08:34)

Quote They crucified Jesus because he said he was the Son of God. –wj I'm glad to see you're making progress WJ.  :>

Hi David

Ha Ha!

Have you ever heard me deny Yeshua as the Son of the Father?

To say that because Yeshua is the Son of God, he cannot also be God in nature, is like saying that because you are a son of your father means you are not human.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
But powerful gods are not needing to be dependant on the power of God are they?
Acts 10.38
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,11:07)

Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2008,08:34) Quote They crucified Jesus because he said he was the Son of God. –wj I'm glad to see you're making progress WJ. :> Hi David Ha Ha! Have you ever heard me deny Yeshua as the Son of the Father? To say that because Yeshua is the Son of God, he cannot also be God in nature, is like saying that because you are a son of your father means you are not human.

But if I said I'm a king and also said I'm God, which charge would you pick to show I'm insane? Probably, the stronger case, of me claiming to be God. Yet, you rightly state that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God.

Anyway, it was a joke, of course.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2008,11:15)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,11:07) Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2008,08:34) Quote They crucified Jesus because he said he was the Son of God. –wj I'm glad to see you're making progress WJ.  :> Hi David Ha Ha! Have you ever heard me deny Yeshua as the Son of the Father? To say that because Yeshua is the Son of God, he cannot also be God in nature, is like saying that because you are a son of your father means you are not human. But if I said I'm a king and also said I'm God, which charge would you pick to show I'm insane?  Probably, the stronger case, of me claiming to be God.  Yet, you rightly state that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God. Anyway, it was a joke, of course.

Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2008,11:15)

But if I said I'm a king and also said I'm God, which charge would you pick to show I'm insane?

The problem is Yeshua never claimed or said he was a King, did he?  

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So you accept it was in the power of God the Father that Jesus worked?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Jodi @ Aug. 15 2008,04:54)

Here are some things to keep track of, -the evil spirits never leave the bodies on their OWN accord, they are cast out by Yeshua’s commands. -they FOLLOW Yeshua’s commands -those who are possessed are said to be troubled or suffering from the evil spirit -those who have the evil spirit cast out are said to be healed or cured -the evil spirits who are possessing a person are not causing or influencing the person to consciously do bad things. Which this is what reflects my entire position, that there is nothing outside of mankind that can cause a man to sin, which is that of Yeshua’s position, who says and I quote him, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” The evil spirits that are said to possess a person are NOT INFLUENCING the person to commit sins, but rather are inflicting them in manners of physical and mental pain of which Yeshua HEALS them of. The authors of the Gospels do NOT know everything. They have been revealed certain things and are inspired by God to write. We see that their writings are not perfect and that they stand under a limited perspective. This is easily seen by the mere fact that the Gospels do not perfectly agree with one another and that their stories vary and differ. When taking into account the entire bible we can see more distinctively that the Gospels were not in anyway trying to reveal to us that we should be fearing any other supernatural power other then that of YHWH. The Old Testament shows repeatedly that the Israelites went after false gods and worshipped false idols. The word demon in English coming from the Greek word daimon would represent, to those loyal to the word of God according to the prophets, a false image or being. Not only did the Greeks believe in demons but so did just about everyone else, including the Egyptians, Babylonians, Philistines, the list goes on and on. If a Jew believed in a demon, according to the Old Testament that directly meant that they believed in a false image. If one takes the time to study the false beliefs of the pagans they would see that pagans believed that demons were the cause of ALL diseases and illnesses. A person who acted crazy represented a person not just inflicted by a demon, but still had the demon inside them. Even such conditions as headaches and fevers were thought to be caused by a specific demon. People would then have images of these demons in their homes in order to protect themselves from them. Demons represented beings under the gods but more powerful then men. They often looked like across between man and beast. All throughout the Old Testament God warns the Israelites not to go after false gods, their demons and their images. All throughout the Old Testament we see that the Israelites do indeed believe in false gods and make for themselves images of those gods. Just what did it mean to believe in a false god, it meant that you believed as the pagans did, and what did the pagans believe, that demons under their gods caused all illnesses and diseases, and that they could even possess your whole body. Deuteronomy 32:17They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear. Psalms 106:35 But they mingled with the Gentiles And learned their works; 36 They served their idols, Which became a snare to them. 37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus they were defiled by their own works, And played the harlot by their own deeds. The Israelites strayed from the TRUTH, and feared other gods. Fearing other gods meant that they falsely believed that demons could cause diseases and illnesses. Deuteronomy 6:1 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the Lord your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. De 13:4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. Why should we fear God and hold fast to Him? Because He is the one who brings about curses, diseases, madness, confusion of mind, famine, calamity, darkness. YHWH is the one who sends evil spirits upon people to torment their minds and bodies, such as what he did to Saul and King Nebuchadnezzar. WJ I don’t NEED to sight Scholars, I have the simple scriptures to back what I say! I have a brain that God gave me, in which I use to see the whole picture, instead of blindly following the mainstream Christian church, which is a harlot to God’s words. Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?” Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;” I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;” Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.” Those who say we must fear fallen angels and their possession and evil spirits that represent invisible beings against God, are plain as day following the HARLOT and are themselves the blind leading the blind, prostituting themselves and committing adultery to God and His words. The mainstream Christian belief in fallen angels becoming demons represents a deceitful cover up, because what they are really believing in is the exact same false beliefs as the pagans. Deuteronomy 28:28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. Ps 31:6 I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the Lord. Isa 45:20 “Gather together and come; assemble, you fugitives from the nations. Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save. Jer 2:8 The priests did not ask, 'Where is the Lord?' Those who deal with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me. The prophets prophesied by Baal, following worthless idols. Jer 7:30 “'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. Reminder, what were these detestable idols? They were known as DEMONS half man and half animal, higher then man but lower then the gods in power, they could make themselves invisible and they would come and inflict you with a headache or a disease or possess your whole body making you a crazy person. Jews put these false demons in their houses and feared them. Jer 10:5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.” Jer 10:14 Everyone is senseless and without know ledge; every goldsmith is shamed by his idols. His images are a fraud; they have no breath in them. Jer 18:15 Yet my people have forgotten me; they burn incense to worthless idols, which made them stumble in their ways and in the ancient paths. They made them walk in bypaths and on roads not built up. Jer 32:34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. worthless idols that did them no good. Habakkuk 2:18“Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak. Zec 10:1 Ask the Lord for rain in the springtime; it is the Lord who makes the storm clouds. He gives showers of rain to men, and plants of the field to everyone. 2 The idols speak deceit, diviners see visions that lie; they tell dreams that are false, they give comfort in vain. The Old Testament sets up very clearly that YHWH ALONE has the powers to bring about curses, that there is no other supernatural power that can do such things. False gods and demons are not real, they have no powers. Were the authors of the Gospels like the Pharisees and many of the other Jews at the time, who feared false gods and their demons, believing that they were the cause of diseases and illnesses? Who is to say for sure, we don’t know how much the authors kept with the revelations of the prophets. The point of their writings was to show that Yeshua was the Son of God and by such he could heal and cure people from everything and anything. We see that they used interchangeably the words demon possession with unclean or evil spirit, was this to show us that to them demon possession did not represent the false beliefs of demons, but rather just stood for evil spirits, of which we know first hand from the Old Testament that God sends upon people? Whichever one the truth may be, one thing is for certain, when a person takes in the word of scripture, the knowledge we have obtained of pagan beliefs in demons, and the knew understandings found in the medical field in relation to the brain and the human body, the traditional mainstream Christian belief of invisible beings setting out to do mankind harm, can be seen as false and rather foolish. We see clearly in the Gospels that the Pharisees believed that demons were real. Beelzebub was a false god from the Philistine city of Ekron. As well, the false book, ‘The Testament of Solomon,’ shows the absurdity of the belief by Jews in a character known as Beelzebub. Do you get that WJ, even the Pharisees in the time of Jesus believed that false gods and demons had powers. They were adulterers who went after pagan beliefs and did not stay loyal to the word of God. The bible is clear, it is YHWH and HIS POWERS that HE gives to HIS messengers that are the ONLY supernatural powers that can cause any sort of darkness onto man. 1Corinthians10:17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread. 18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. Paul SPEAKS CLEARLY and he is consistent with the Old Testament of demons representing false beings that the Israelites went prostituting after. Demons are being represented here as FASLE IDOLS. If you have fellowship with a demon, does that mean you are allowing something REAL to come in and possess your mind, or that you are allowing yourself to follow false beliefs? The later of course. The truth that is clearly established in the Old Testament is that God causes famines, diseases, illnesses and things such as mental confusion and madness, however the pagans believed that such things were caused by demons. The demons however which were thought to be causing all the trouble were really YHWH’s powers doing such. Therefore it could be said that YHWH was actually the demons. When God warns people not to follow and fellowship with the demons, it would obviously mean that they are not to believe that they are real or that their powers are real.

Jodi……excellent post, it amazes me how people can't see what you are showing and your many scriptures that beck up the point, I wonder how much even sunk in. Even common sense should show us that in the time of Jesus they did not have the medical knowledge to understand mental illnesses and History does prove that all the pagan nations believed and established demon worship , and in scripture God strictly forbade it, then and now. It is amazing who many people even now are influenced and so fearful of demons and evils spirit beings, they go to say onces, and worship and observe these things on Halloween, teaching their children to fear these false things, not realizing the effect it has on their minds.

Love and peace to you and yours Jodi…..hug the little one for me……..gene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2008,08:34)

Quote They crucified Jesus because he said he was the Son of God. –wj I'm glad to see you're making progress WJ.  :>

[Author]

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