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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 13 2010,13:11) Terraricca………….Where have i said any different then that ?. Those who have Gods Spirit (INTELLECT) do produce the fruits of the Spirit. All who have the Spirit of GOD in them (ARE) Citizens of the Kingdom of GOD. They have been translated into the Kingdom of GOD's dear son Jesus. We are (NOW) the Sons of the Living GOD according to John. The problem Here is men think they have a greater Power in themselves called, (“FREE WILLS”) then GOD Does, they think they are in control of their salvation and will only agree with GOD if it suites their EGO'S These are all (I) gods who only really trust in themselves and do not truly trust GOD, Nor His Power to Save Them . They are seeking their own glory not the glory which comes from GOD. “Having an appearance of Godliness but denying the POWER THERE OF”. Not understanding That it is GOD who works in them (BOTH To WILL) and do of (HIS) good Pleasure. They think God needs their permission to recreate them and conform them into the image of Christ.The created saying to the Creator ” only if you have my permission can you save me, The are those who profess with the mouth but truly deny the power of GOD. Shall the created say to the Creator you will create me as (I) see Fit? IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
genei have seen now were you get all your misunderstanding,you are an UNIVERSALIS and that's where your problem is.
Terraricca………Well there you go again labeling and accusing again. Have your ever though you might be th one that is misunderstanding things?
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 14 2010,12:44) Terraricca………Well there you go again labeling and accusing again. Have your ever though you might be th one that is misunderstanding things? peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
genei went trough pages and pages of UNIVERSALISM BELEIVES
the two kind,now i understand you at least were you got your info from.
still love you
Pierre
Quote (david @ May 13 2010,14:40) Quote gene the kingdom is in you only if you become a citizen of that kingdom and you produce the fruits of that kingdom.
–Gene.
Well then, this argument is closed. As I have said before and as Mike just asked you:
Was he saying to those Pharisees that God's kingdom was dwelling inside of them?
Apparently, Gene, in your view, the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking when he said those words were citizens of the kingdom and produced the fruits of that kingdom.
But wait, didn't Jesus condemn the Pharisees as offsprings of vipers and say Gehenna awaited them because of their actions?
Gene, the Bible is just not with you on this one. You have to ignore what was actually said (in all Bibles but 2, and even the footnotes in them agree with the rest) and also ignore who it was said to, in order to support your belief.
It is like your eyes are closed. How can you reason your way out of what you just said, given who Jesus was speaking to?
Gene, you do know that Jesus words were directed to Pharisees, don't you?And you say:
the kingdom is in you only if you become a citizen of that kingdom and you produce the fruits of that kingdom.So, was Jesus saying that the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned were citizens of the kingdom who produced fruits of the kingdom? Jesus said they were rotten fruit. How could this be more clear?
Jesus was not saying that the Pharisees were citizens of the kingdom. He was saying that the kingdom was “in their midst” or “among them.”David…………I nor Jesus said the kingdom of GOD was in the (PHARISEES) that is you addition to what i said. What i and Jesus said was the Kingdom of GOD comes (NOT) with Observation, but is within you. Even if you force the text to say it was among them , then how was it among them David, was it not (IN) Jesus and the Apostles when they were empowered on Pentecost. The words thy kingdom comewill be done is the power of the kingdom (IN) a person, Trying to force the text to meet Your JW theologies does not change the truth. (GOD RULES from the (INSIDE) out. His power and control is internal (IN) his (TRUE) Subject and these are the true members and representatives of the Kingdom of GOD, all the rest are not. Your WJ eyes are only on the (PHYSICAL) and you teach of this Utopian age as a big draw to you members, but you fail to tell the rest of the story that after the end of Jesus and the Saints 1000 year rule that those (subjects ) turn when GOD releases the evil back on the earth and men in that kingdom turn back to there evil ways. Jesus will offer his kingdom to GOD the Father at the end of (HIS) reign and that is when GOD takes control over the whole earth. God rules from the (INSIDE) of HIS Childern, and that my friend is where the true Kingdom resides and rules. That GOD my be (IN) all and (THROUGH) ALL Now that is where the Kingdom of GOD rules David. “FOR YOU ARE (CREATED) UNTO GOOD WORKS” AND AGAIN ” FOR GOD WORKS IN US BOTH TO (WILL) AND (DO) OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE. Think about it David.
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Hi Gene,
You STILL didn't answer my question. I didn't ask if the Pharisees WERE the Kingdom of God. I asked if the Kingdom of God was INSIDE them at the time Jesus said this.
You said:
Quote One of the Big Pitch for JW'S is to get people to think they are special people who are representing the “True” Kingdom ministry . The Witnesses are sure they have the truth. I agree with them on most Scriptural issues, not all. But they never have the attitude of “We have it, you can't have it”. They spend hours and hours of their lives knocking on strangers' doors to try to bring people to God. Their Kingdom Halls are open to all. And the Witnesses do the best thing IMO that can be done when teaching Scripture. EVERY single Scripture that is discussed in their meetings is looked up and read by all members. Many mainstream churches do not encourage the members (nor allow time for them) to look up the passages and read along before continuing.
The “snake charmer” designation is no different than racial slurs, Gene. You cannot judge a whole group of people with an offhand slam like that. Is that Scriptural? Are there no JW's who will gain everlasting life? How do you know? How do you presume to be judge and jury over them – or anyone else?
You said:
Quote They preach about the Great “Utopian Kingdom” when the lion and the lamb lie together and everyone is Happy, when they are there in this great time of eternal peace on the earth. Isn't that what Scripture also teaches? I sure look forward to it.
You said:
Quote Not even realizing that after that thousand year period everything totally fall apart and the whole world turns to corruption again, when evil is released back on the earth. Isn't that also what Scripture teaches? Satan locked up for a thousand year reign of peace. Then released once more for a period of time not disclosed. Then sent to the fiery lake forever.
You said:
Quote Why would Jesus and the Disciples come Peaching the Kingdom of GOD if it were not Present? Jesus preached and taught to be preached that the Kingdom of God was NEAR, not here. The “has overtaken you” and ” is among you” language signifies that the wheels are in motion. Not that everything is complete. Do lions now lay with lambs in any sense of the phrase? Even if it is not literal, does it sound like life on earth as we know it today? Has God wiped out every tear yet? Are we to the point that no man has to teach his brother about God, because the word of God is implanted in our hearts?
These are some of the things that will accompany the Kingdom of God, Gene. It is coming to earth for sure, but it has not arrived yet. We will know by the coming of Jesus on the clouds.
peace and love,
mikeHi MB,
If only the JWs used the principle of 2Cor 13 1 and searched for back up verses to establish truth they would not reach foolish conclusions like Jesus is Michael.
If only they did not treat their leaders like gods and obey them instead of keeping their freedom to serve Christ.
If only they sought the Spirit anointing and did not strive in their own strengthQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2010,08:05) Hi MB,
If only the JWs used the principle of 2Cor 13 1 and searched for back up verses to establish truth they would not reach foolish conclusions like Jesus is Michael.
If only they did not treat their leaders like gods and obey them instead of keeping their freedom to serve Christ.
If only they sought the Spirit anointing and did not strive in their own strength
Hi Nick,It's funny you mention 2 Cor. Isn't that similar to the Scripture I used to indicate just how unhelpful some of your comments can be? You are the one who sometimes speaks in tongues without giving us the benefit of a translator. I see Dennison has even started a thread about it.
I don't believe Jesus is Michael. But unlike you, I can point to Scriptures that actually infer this. Hebrews 1 says:
5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”?
13 But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?
We know Michael is an angel. The fact that Paul does not say, “To which one of the OTHER angels…” speaks volumes.
And the JW's do not have “leaders” so to speak. They have elders and overseers. All are brothers and sisters, and none is held in higher esteem than another. No rings are kissed, no one is bowed down to, there are no “saints” that are prayed to.
It is very one-sided of you infer the injurious claim that people who are JWs do not seek the spirit, Nick. And it is also false.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2010,08:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2010,08:05) Hi MB,
If only the JWs used the principle of 2Cor 13 1 and searched for back up verses to establish truth they would not reach foolish conclusions like Jesus is Michael.
If only they did not treat their leaders like gods and obey them instead of keeping their freedom to serve Christ.
If only they sought the Spirit anointing and did not strive in their own strength
Hi Nick,It's funny you mention 2 Cor. Isn't that similar to the Scripture I used to indicate just how unhelpful some of your comments can be? You are the one who sometimes speaks in tongues without giving us the benefit of a translator. I see Dennison has even started a thread about it.
I don't believe Jesus is Michael. But unlike you, I can point to Scriptures that actually infer this. Hebrews 1 says:
5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”?
13 But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?
We know Michael is an angel. The fact that Paul does not say, “To which one of the OTHER angels…” speaks volumes.
And the JW's do not have “leaders” so to speak. They have elders and overseers. All are brothers and sisters, and none is held in higher esteem than another. No rings are kissed, no one is bowed down to, there are no “saints” that are prayed to.
It is very one-sided of you infer the injurious claim that people who are JWs do not seek the spirit, Nick. And it is also false.
peace and love,
mike
MBare not the JW saying that they are guided by the spirit of God??
i mean the watchtower elders.
and if there is a conflict between the bible and the watchtower document,it will be the document of the watchtower who will be fallowed.??
Pierre
Hi MB,
Have you met a JW that does not obey the rules of their denomination?
Dissent is not tolerated nor is the imposed order challenged.
They have popes too and the insecure who need them.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2010,08:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2010,08:05) Hi MB,
If only the JWs used the principle of 2Cor 13 1 and searched for back up verses to establish truth they would not reach foolish conclusions like Jesus is Michael.
If only they did not treat their leaders like gods and obey them instead of keeping their freedom to serve Christ.
If only they sought the Spirit anointing and did not strive in their own strength
Hi Nick,It's funny you mention 2 Cor. Isn't that similar to the Scripture I used to indicate just how unhelpful some of your comments can be? You are the one who sometimes speaks in tongues without giving us the benefit of a translator. I see Dennison has even started a thread about it.
I don't believe Jesus is Michael. But unlike you, I can point to Scriptures that actually infer this. Hebrews 1 says:
5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”?
13 But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?
We know Michael is an angel. The fact that Paul does not say, “To which one of the OTHER angels…” speaks volumes.
And the JW's do not have “leaders” so to speak. They have elders and overseers. All are brothers and sisters, and none is held in higher esteem than another. No rings are kissed, no one is bowed down to, there are no “saints” that are prayed to.
It is very one-sided of you infer the injurious claim that people who are JWs do not seek the spirit, Nick. And it is also false.
peace and love,
mike
Hi MB,
Folk really need to choose their master carefully as you cannot serve two.You do not commit to a denomination and expect God's Spirit to be poured out on you to serve it as the Spirit of God does not serve man's tradition.
Neither are the leaders you commit to your masters or even members of Christ's body unless they are reborn into him and obedience to those of baal is unhelpful.
COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2010,08:26) I don't believe Jesus is Michael. But unlike you, I can point to Scriptures that actually infer this. Hebrews 1 says: 5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”?
13 But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?
Infer what? That Yeshua is an angel? In Hebrews 1 Yeshua is CONTRASTED with the angels…..Mikeboll64………..MY POINT IS THAT THE KINGDOM of God is (IN) you Not Outside of YOU. As Jesus Said “for the kingdom of God comes Not with observation, but is within you”. People are looking for an external sign of the kingdom but it is the internal sign that matters, because there is where GOD rules in the Heart and Minds of His subjects. The outward things are only a expression of what is going on inside a person, the Kingdom of GOD is Within those who have His Spirit (IN) Them.
As far a stating about the pitch of this glorious Kingdom coming and the great joy all in it have , that is the Main focuses of the WJ's they believe they are the Kingdom people and this give them a sense of being special and unique and while the kingdom of Christ and the Saints is indeed a special time in the plan of GOD, It is not fully represented by the JW's, they ignore the later part of that Kingdom when everything turns to evil again and all of those in it are consumed with fire that comes down from Heaven and devours them all, except for Jesus and the Saints. Why is that , is it not because they (Jesus and the Saints) were the (ONLY) true Representatives of the (True kingdom of God) Because GOD was ruling (IN) them, and that is where the Kingdom of GOD is, it is Within those who are God's Subjects.
My point is that (ALL) Cults operate the same way they Pitch this Special uniqueness that they only have, and separate themselves from all others. If you disagree with their teachings they would cast you out in a heart beat as they have many. This is simply the way Cults work they all work the same way . This (FEELING) of being special is paramount in there teachings, I have friends who are JW.s and if you get deep into their teachings and question them they simply don't give you a direct answer or turn away to some other subject that has nothing to do with the point being discussed . David is probably the most Knowledgeable of any JW'S I have ever meet and i do agree with much of what he says but not everything , Specially about the Kingdom being only in the future, because i believe He is just mimicking the Watch Tower and Has not really thought about it for (himself) yet. But i do respect his much of what he say regarding scriptures.
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
For David……………His disciples said to him ” When will the repose of the dead come about, and when will the new world come?” He said to them ” what you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it”>…..>These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down. Think about it David.
Peace and love to you and yours………………….gen
Quote (terraricca @ May 16 2010,10:52) MB are not the JW saying that they are guided by the spirit of God??
i mean the watchtower elders.
and if there is a conflict between the bible and the watchtower document,it will be the document of the watchtower who will be fallowed.??
Pierre
Hi to all,Let me restate for the record that I am NOT a JW.
Pierre, (cajun or French?)
Surely the JW's believe they are guided by Holy Spirit. They obviously don't see any conflict between Scripture and what they teach. Many, including me, do see conflict. They follow the Watchtower teachings, which they also believe to be Scriptural.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2010,11:01) Hi MB,
Have you met a JW that does not obey the rules of their denomination?
Dissent is not tolerated nor is the imposed order challenged.
They have popes too and the insecure who need them.
Hi Nick,Okay, but why do you single out the JWs? Isn't this the case in every church on the planet? Most churches today require prospective members to sign a “Statement of Beliefs” agreeing with the doctrines that church teaches. If you question those beliefs, they don't want you either.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2010,12:19) Hi MB,
Folk really need to choose their master carefully as you cannot serve two.You do not commit to a denomination and expect God's Spirit to be poured out on you to serve it as the Spirit of God does not serve man's tradition.
Agreed. That is why I don't go to church. I cannot find one that teaches the Bible in every instance the way I interpret it. Most teach the trinity, so right off the bat, I'm very limited. It's frustrating. So, for now, HN is my church.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 16 2010,13:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2010,08:26) I don't believe Jesus is Michael. But unlike you, I can point to Scriptures that actually infer this. Hebrews 1 says: 5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”?
13 But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?
Infer what? That Yeshua is an angel? In Hebrews 1 Yeshua is CONTRASTED with the angels…..
Hi Paul,Didn't you read the post? I showed two Scriptures that I think prove very clearly that Jesus is NOT Michael, the angel.
peace and love,
mikeHi Gene,
You said:
Quote Mikeboll64………..MY POINT IS THAT THE KINGDOM of God is (IN) you Not Outside of YOU. As Jesus Said “for the kingdom of God comes Not with observation, but is within you”. People are looking for an external sign of the kingdom but it is the internal sign that matters, You still didn't answer the question. Was the Kingdom of God inside the Pharisees when Jesus said it has overtaken them? Jesus gives many parables about the Kingdom of God. Knowledge of it does swell up inside of those who can accept it, but it is also a real kingdom. Is the kingdom inside you right now? Where do you live, in paradise? Do you think that the world will stay the same, full of crime and war and famine, but some people will be walking around without a care because the kingdom is inside them? Is this all there is? Or will there be a new earth and a new heaven and a New Jerusalem? Are all these things inside certain people too? Does Jesus now rule inside you? How many people are inside you that he is ruling over? Are there waterfalls and oceans and forests there? Are lions laying down with lambs inside you right now?
You said:
Quote My point is that (ALL) Cults operate the same way they Pitch this Special uniqueness that they only have, and separate themselves from all others. If you disagree with their teachings they would cast you out in a heart beat as they have many. This is simply the way Cults work they all work the same way . The Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult. They are a religion. Tell me about the religion that does not behave exactly like your points above. Look at all of us on HN. The majority don't believe the trinity, but that's where the similarities end. Any two of us rarely agree on anything, and I have never known of an instance where we all agreed on something.
You think the spirit is intellect. You have no clear Scriptural claims of this to produce. What if I joined your church? Would you let me continue on even as I challenged your intellect belief in front of your other members over and over?
I think Nick believes that Jesus was real, but now has been absorbed by God and actually IS God's Spirit. I don't believe that – could I join his church? Would I want to?
Kathi thinks that Jesus is another God, to be worshipped the same as the Father, yet not the Father. Should I join her church?
David believes that Jesus is Michael the arch-angel. I don't. Should I become a JW anyway?
WJ thinks God is a schizophrenic and has three people living in Him. Should I join his church knowing this, even though I agree with him on almost everything else?
I think the Kingdom of God is a beautiful physical place where there will be no more tears. I believe it is coming to earth soon. I pray that He will accept me as one of His subjects. But I more earnestly pray that if it is a case of “too little, too late” for me, that He accepts my 9 year old son. That will make me just as happy, to know he is there with God and Jesus and the rest. Do you want to join my church, Gene? I will have to have you sign off on believing the Kingdom of God is a real place.
My point is that the JW's truly believe they are interpreting Scripture correctly – they are not purposely misleading millions. If you see where their intepretations go against Scripture, then don't agree with that part of what they teach.
But it is not fair to gang up on them and call them a cult just because it's popular to do so.peace and love,
mikeMikeboll64……… The kingdom of GOD most certainly was (NOT) (IN) the Pharisees or they would have been Subject to it willingly. Saying the Kingdom has overtaken someone is not the same as saying they are member of it. No more then when a race of people overtakes another does that make them part of the one that overtook them.
What you have described to us about “religions” is what cults are , they all think they are the (special) group of believers who hold the truth and most think they are (TRUE) Church and are exclusive from others, that is what a cult is. They preach the Kingdom of God when in Fact it is the Kingdom of Jesus and The Saints, the Kingdom of GOD comes later at the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus and the Saints, Why do you think David did not answer my response to him about that. Because GOD removes Evil influence from the Earth and the nature of animals and man are changed does not mean the residences in the earth are themselves in the kingdom of GOD. The only ones in the Kingdom of GOD are the Saints and Jesus and they will rule in Christs Kingdom.The Kingdom of GOD comes not with OBSERVATION but is inside of you , AS JESUS SAID. it just a matter of believing that or not. To look at the kingdom as only an outside manifestation is simply not true , the outward appearance is only a matter of what is (INSIDE) a person and it is their where GOD Rules, in the hearts and minds of His subjects. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
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