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Hi Mike,
YOU:And no, I don’t believe that words that Jehovah would eventually speak through prophets were what was “with Him” before the world was created.
ME: Regardless if you believe that Jesus existed prior or not, God promised eternal life before the world was. If those words declared before the world began were not still with God during the time of David, God would not have ever told David that his son’s flesh would not see decay. If those words before the world began were still not with God during the time of Jesus, Jesus would have never said that he was the Son of Man who has come to save that which was lost. If those words were not still with God during the time of Paul, Paul would not have told people that “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
If God’s words are no longer WITH God then we would not see a resurrection, our God would be a liar who doesn’t keep His word.
In order to keep your word that word needs to remain with you, if it doesn’t remain with you your word becomes lost.
Hi Jodi,
YOU: He appeared to many and said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones.
LIES!
JESUS NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS NOT SPIRIT
HE CONFIRMED THAT
THOUGH HE IS A SPIRIT HE ALSO HAS
FLESH AND BONES
Luke 39:See my hands and feet, that it is I myself. Handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have. 40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.
Genesis 18:
And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. 6Abraham made haste into the tent to Sara, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf, very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man, who made haste and boiled it. 8He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree.
Sarah Laughs at the Promise
9And when they had eaten, they said to him: Where is Sara thy wife? He answered: Lo she is in the tent.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel,
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.
Mike,
You said:
As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father. That CELL did indeed exist before the second CELL existed. So yes, the “Father Cell” is, and will always be, older than the “Son Cell”. And yes, the “Father Cell” brought forth/created/produced/begot” the Son Cell which previously hadn’t existed.
Secondly, lose the “parent/offspring” terminology. For your analogy to be considered valid, we must have a FATHER and a SON – because that is the relationship both Jesus and his God have described.
Thirdly, cells don’t begin with a fixed amount of “substance” that then gets cut in half when they separate – leaving each cell with only half of the substance the original one started with. More substance is always being generated, and when enough NEW substance is produced, the cell can divide, making a new cell out of that new substance. So not even the substance of the original cell and the new cell is the same age.
My response:
Suffice it to say that you have not looked at the cell reproduction videos that I linked you to or if you did look, you need to revisit them because you are not correct in your thinking that one of the two identical cells has new substance in it while the other has original substance in it. That is not how it works. The original cell becomes two distinct cells, and BOTH distinct cells equally have original and new substance within them, also each distinct cell contains half of the original cell’s nucleus. Each distinct cell ends up with the same substance within them, part original and part newly made.
Here are the videos once again:
DNA Replication https://youtu.be/TNKWgcFPHqw
Binary Fission https://youtu.be/OAcz-tFGY0Y
I understand that this is a concept that gets you thinking about a topic you probably barely touched on in high school. I have had a while to absorb the info. Take your time, mull it over for awhile. I believe that you will see it differently than the way you have been. This cell theory has probably been one of my biggest “AH HA” moments since I have been studying the deity of Christ, at least 27 years. It gave me a real life example of a true father and son relationship where the father and son are the same age.
Stay well, LU
Hi Mike
Yes Jeremiah 33 is about Jesus
Compare with Zachariah 3
[8] Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
There is only one God who can guide you, if you want to, and it is YAHWEH who is above all.
Why do you ask me such questions?Thanks Mike for addressing the quiz with this answer:
Lightenup: And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
MIke answer: Two different persons. The LORD of hosts has sent someone other than the LORD of hosts.Here is the quiz being referred to:
Here is a quiz:
Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:
And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
1.Who do you think is the “I”?
2.Who do you think is the “me”?
3. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
4. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?Thanks for answering that Mike. I have another quiz here:
Read this all by itself without its context and then answer the question:
“Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. “Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people.
Who does the “I” and “My” refer to?
Please answer this, there is a reason and it’s good. LU
Mike,
You said: As for John 1:3, unless the Word himself and the Word’s God were two of the “all things” that were made through the Word, then “other” is clearly intended – just as it was intended in 1 Cor 15:27. The only difference in the two is that John didn’t add the obvious disclaimer spelling this out, while Paul did.
The context of John 1: 1-3 establishes the existence of the Word and the God that the Word was with in the beginning. Then verse three refers to everything that was made was made through the Word. So, before everything was made through the Word, nothing was made. The eternal Father and eternal Son were not made otherwise they would not be eternal. The word “other” would change the verse to imply that the Father and/or the Word were made. The word “other” is clearly not there because the Father and the Word were not made, they were eternal. You want to put “other” there because you don’t believe that the Son can be eternal. He is the same age as his Father and shares the name of Jehovah.
Goodnight my friend, LU.
Hi Jodi,
YOU: 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.
BACK TO SQUARE ONE AGAIN: WITH EVERY RESPECT:
CARNAL MINDED REASONING
. for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,
as ye see me have. (despite a spirit, the fact that JESUS came through walls)
Jodi answer:
If for the sake of our argument,
THE ROMANS ENTERED AND CUT JESUS’ HEAD OFF
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF
JESUS COULD ONLY DIE ONCE!
Genesis 18:3
And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. 6Abraham made haste into the tent to Sara, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf, very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man, who made haste and boiled it. 8He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree.
Sarah Laughs at the Promise
9And when they had eaten, they said to him: Where is Sara thy wife? He answered: Lo she is in the tent.
Jodi the above is a clear picture that
though THE LORD IN THREE PERSONS
PRESENTED HIMSELF AS HUMANS, IN ACTUAL FACT
THE LORD WAS NOT IN THE AUTHENTIC HUMAN CURSED MORTAL SATANIC FLESH! believe it or not it’s your problem.
HE WAS IN HIS OWN GENUINE SUBSTANCE AS
FLESH
LIKE ADAM WAS ON HIS CREATION.
THE FLESH BODY WE ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD WOULD POSSESS:
THE NEW JERUSALEM
John 10:9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in,
he shall be saved:
and he shall go in ( SPIRIT, TO CREATE IN TOTAL BLISS)
and go out, (FLESH TO LIVE IN THE NEW WORLD)and
shall find pastures. ( REMAINS IN TOTAL BLISS IN THE SPIRIT)
John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me:
that of all that he hath given me, (OUT OF HIS SUBSTANCE, BOTH SPIRITUAL AND CARNAL)
I should lose nothing; (DESPITE HE DIED)
but should raise it up again in the last day. (PRECISELY IN THE LAST DAY IN THIS WORLD ON HIS DEATH THE CROSS, GLORIFIED BOTH IN
SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST, and FLESH BODY: IN “THE WORD”
John4:And he that reapeth (THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD) receiveth wages and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he (“THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN)that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. (ON THE CROSS IN ONE GLORY) 37For in this is the saying true: That it is one man (THE SON OF MAN)that soweth, and it is another(THE SON OF GOD) that reapeth.
Matthew 13:36 Who made answer and said to them: He that soweth the good seed is
the Son of man.
THUS JESUS GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS
TWO IN ONE SPIRITUAL/FLESH BODY in the FATHER’S substance Hebrews 1:3
JESUS CHRIST
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Creation is created by God through his Word. The Word was with God. God created all through the Son of God. The son came from the Father. Begotten of the Father was he. The only one. Between God and man.
Jodi: So how do you address the fact that Jesus sits on an eternal throne according to the FLESH, where David foresaw that his flesh would not see decay?
Jesus’ flesh didn’t see decay.
Jodi: He appeared to many and said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones.
He was not a spirit at that time, but still had flesh and bones. He was raised from the dead in the same non-decayed flesh body in which he died. He had 40 more days of work to do on earth in the flesh before he ascended to heaven. But could he enter the Kingdom of God in heaven as flesh and bone? He himself told us no. He told us that in the resurrection, we’d be like the angels. Angels aren’t flesh creatures. Paul later went into great detail about how the bodies of those whose dwelling would be in heaven would be changed from flesh to spirit. (1 Cor 15)
Jodi: The people who witnessed him ascend were told that same Jesus would descend.
And it will be the same Jesus who comes on the clouds. When Jesus was transfigured, he was still the same Jesus. But God was giving those apostles a glimpse of what this same Jesus would look like when he was restored to his former glory in heaven.
Jodi: He can most certainly provide Mary’s egg with the needed chromosomes equating to Joseph’s sperm. The virgin birth according to Isaiah 7 has NOTHING to do with God sending down a spirit son to be a man, it has nothing to do with God creating a one of a kind being…
You words appear to contradict themselves, Jodi. What other human being has chromosomes equating to their flesh father’s sperm that were personally made and inserted by God? Whether he preexisted or not, you can’t deny that – even before God’s Spirit descended upon him as his baptism – Jesus of Nazareth was already a one of a kind being. And if you can accept that scriptural teaching, then the number of ways in which he was a one of a kind being no longer matter to the bottom line.
And remember, I didn’t just wake up one day and WANT Jesus to have preexisted his time on earth. I gleaned this information directly from many different scriptures… which we have just begun to discuss.
Kathi: But none of them say that Jesus was made, sorry.
They actually do when you allow the scriptures to teach you instead of the other way around.
“the firstborn of every creature”
“the beginning of the creation by God”
“God created me as the first of his works”
“before the mountains were made, I was given birth”
“his origin is from ancient times, days of old”
“today I have begotten a son”
“I ascend to my Father and your Father, my God and your God”
“Lord, you alone created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them… protect us by the name of your holy servant Jesus”
Fellow Christians, these scriptures make it hard to deny that Jesus was not only made by his and our God, Jehovah… but that he was the first thing made by Jehovah. Jesus is God’s first creation, which means he existed long before God sent him to be born of a woman on earth.
Carmel: Hi Mike,
YOU: Or from His holy servant Jesus,
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time:
Sit on my right hand,
until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
In the above MikeWHO SERVES WHO?
Well, let’s sort it out then. Pharaoh once bestowed great honor, authority and riches on Joseph, right? He gave Joseph his signet ring, and decreed that none was greater than Joseph in the entire land of Egypt – save Pharaoh himself, right? So did Pharaoh’s act of bestowing great things on Joseph imply that Pharaoh was now a servant of Joseph? Did his generous actions equate to Pharaoh “serving” Joseph – as if he was Joseph’s subordinate?
What say you? Was it a case of the master giving good things to his servant? Or was it a case of the servant giving good things to his master?
Berean…..You completely ignored the scripture I posted, as if it weren’t in the scriptures. How can we ever have to have a honest dialogue if you constantly do that. We should all deal with scriptures others post IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Mike …I would like to know about Kerwin also, I wonder if anyone knows , he had a sever kidney problem, I tride to search for him but was unable to find him. Would love to know if he is OK .
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Jodi: 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
with -para, from, of
glorify though me (the Son of Man) with thine own self with the glory which I (the Son of Man) had of thee before the world was.
Okay, but it’s the same phrase both times… “glorify me para you with the glory I had para you…”. You can choose to say the latter “para” means “from” out of personal preference, but you can’t deny that Jesus is still saying that HE had glory with or from God before the world was, right? It’s not “with the glory you’ve been holding for me” since before the world was, right? Rather, it’s “with the glory I HAD“ before the world was. Seems clear enough to me that the conscious entity Jesus is talking to his God about a glory that the conscious entity Jesus had before the world was.
Jodi: Mike it doesn’t make sense to me at all that God needed to send down an only begotten son to be a man, for then to have that man be able to do nothing of himself.
Even when Jesus was existing alongside his God before the world was, he could do nothing of himself. Now, being back at the right hand of his God with all kinds of power bestowed upon him, he can still do nothing of himself. Not one creature in the history of the world can do anything of themselves – Jesus included. Any power that you, I, Michael, Gabriel, Satan, or Jesus has comes from the Most High God. We live by a loan of God’s spirit – which returns to Him when we die. Man cannot take one step without power given to him by God. So none of us can ever do a single thing of ourselves – whether or not we preexisted in heaven before becoming a human being.
Jodi: Scripture does not tell me that Jesus received the Spirit because he was already a Son of God having been sent to earth. Scripture tells me that Jesus received the Spirit, an anointing and was sent, as it was a promise from God to be fulfilled in the son of Jesse.
Scripture actually tells you both of those things… but you only accept one of them. 😉 I’ll wait for your response about John 17:5. Then maybe we can discuss another scripture.
Jodi: This word of God made true in the flesh of Jesus spoken by the prophet Isaiah, I believe was indeed God’s word before the world began.
That’s almost how I’d word it too. Except this particular “Word of God” is a title given to God’s preeminent spokesman. The king of ancient Abyssinia had a spokesman called “Kal Hatze” – which means “the word of the king”. In Abyssinia, the subjects would air their complaints, concerns and requests to “The Word of the King”, and he would then pass them on to the King. The King would pass his answer on to “The Word of the King”, and he would relay the King’s words back to the subjects. The subjects never had a direct audience with the King himself. It was always passed through this “mediator”, who had as his title “The Word of the King”. Sound familiar?
Jesus has the title “The Word of God” because he is God’s main spokesman, and a mediator between us and God. But we can talk in much more depth about that when we talk about John 1. Right now, I’ll wait to hear your thoughts about my comments on John 17:5.
Jodi: Hi Carmel,
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.
Agreed.
Mike…. you say you believe in the preexistence of Jesus. Can you produce any scriptures that say he was alive before his existence on this earth, as a human being?
I am not talking about prophetic scriptures of him comming into his existence, but actual scriptures that show any activity or action of him before berth on this earth. Also please give us any reason for him to have previously existed , what would that demonstrate for humanity, if he was already a perfect being , how could he ever say “to him that overcomes “even as, I have”, if in fact he was already perfect from the very beginning, what did he have to overcome “even as” we do? the words “even as I have” makes that person exactly the same as those he is addressing.
Also what kind of example would a preexisting being, living in a preexisting state of existence of any kind, be to us? What great purpose or example would that be? I believe giving that kind of advantage over us, goes against the whole purpose of the existence of Jesus in the first place. I also believe the only advantage the man Jesus had was he was forordained, to be the only human being to have never sinned, because then that would given him the right to atone for the rest of human kind. So he had to be “exactly” like us in “every” way, with out exception.
SATAN’S PLAN, from the get go , was to make Jesus appear different then we are. He accomplished this by turning “image” of , the man Jesus into a GOD. Why?, because that belife, would then seperates him from us, this “DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION”, was instigated by Satan himself, by the “GNOSTIC’S “, at the very time of the apostles Paul and John. Those were the ones John coined as the ANTICHRISTS, because they turned a ordinary flesh and blood human being in to a GOD.
So today we don’t have this any longer, “unto us there is “one” God and one mediator between God and men , “the MAN” Jesus Christ.
We have today instead, three Gods, and one is a mediator between men and the God, the God Jesus Christ, but wate he can’t be a Christ because he was already a God , why would a God need to be anointed by a God? That is exactly why John coined them, “anti-anointers” or antichrists. They simply did not believe Jesus as a God needed to be anointed with anything, Seening he was already a God. With that understanding go read what I wrote on “2ths2” and it should clearly show how “the man of sin” , is not a real person, but a “false image” of Jesus himself being a God, created by Satan himself and nearly all of Christanity has fallen for “the big lie” about Jesus himself.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Kathi: The original cell becomes two distinct cells, and BOTH distinct cells equally have original and new substance within them…
So then God changed? He has grown new substance that He didn’t have previously, and so his makeup is now a mixture of what He used to be – and some new substance that wasn’t there before?
Kathi: It gave me a real life example of a true father and son relationship where the father and son are the same age.
But it’s not actually a “real life example” at all. First of all, cells aren’t sentient beings – which should go without saying. Nor are fathers and sons ever identical – even in the case of Jesus and his God Jehovah. But you still keep avoiding the point I keep making…
As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father. That CELL did indeed exist before the second CELL existed. So yes, the “Father Cell” is, and will always be, older than the “Son Cell”. And yes, the “Father Cell” brought forth/created/produced/begot” the Son Cell which previously hadn’t existed.
In your scenario, was there a time when only ONE cell existed? Yes. So if there ever comes a time when a second cell exists, that original cell will always be older than the second one. Always.
In your scenario, is the second cell brought forth into existence as the result of something the first cell did? Yes. So the second cell will always owe its very existence to the first cell. In fact, you could say that the first cell was the God of the second cell, since #1 created #2.
Understand? First there was only ONE. Then that one created a DIFFERENT one. And if that different one was completely identical, then the Father and the Son are completely identical. Is that your claim?
And if the first one was a combination of Father and Son from the beginning, then the second one is an identical combination of Father and Son. So now we have two Gods who are both a combination of Father and Son. Is that your claim?
There are many reasons your cell analogy doesn’t work – not the least of which is that God is not a cell that divides into an identical copy of Himself. 😎
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