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- mikeboll64,June wrote:
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Quote by watching what his God did, and then doing the same. Mike,
The only time the son watched the Father do things, was when the Father created the spiritual creatures, purposely THROUGH HIS SON!
WHILE HE WAS STILL WITHIN HIM
THEN THE SON DID LIKEWISE AND CREATED OUR CREATION THROUGH THE FATHER WITHIN HIM!
SO FIRST THE SON WAS WITHIN THE FATHER, THEN THE FATHER WAS WITHIN THE SON!
AND HE LEFT THE SON JUST BEFORE HE WAS GOING TO DIE!
John 17:5 5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.
The above is a clear statement by Jesus REGARDING THIS!
with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee
So he left the Father to create our world, AND THE FATHER STILL REMAINED IN HIM!
THIS IN ORDER FOR THE SON THE BE A MADIATOR/CREATOR BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE CREATURES FROM THE OTHER HAND THERE WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A KIND OF MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE SON AND THE FATHER, IN ORDER FOR THE SON TO HAVE FULL POWER TO CREATE, AS THE WORD
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,13:37) Please address this part, Kerwin: While it is true that certain things have been revealed to men via God's Spirit many times in scripture, this does not support your claim that ALL the things Jesus knew about God were revealed to him via God's Spirit. In fact, there isn't a scripture that says ANYTHING AT ALL was ever revealed to Jesus via God's Spirit.
On the other hand, there ARE scriptures where Jesus himself told us that he learned things from God DIRECTLY – by watching what his God did, and then doing the same.
Mike…..What about the scripture where Jesus said God showed him thing and will even show him more things. I can quote it for if you would like.You way off on this Mike if you don't think God reveals things to Jesus, even in revelations it say The God gave him things to show unto his servants Mike.
Peace and love…………………………..gene
Mike ……like I have said before Trinitarians and Preexistences are both in the same boat. They both believe in other Gods, they both believe in the Preexistence of Jesus , and you confirming what Carmel is saying only proves my point. you both try desperately to separate Jesus from our EXACT identity with him. IMO
Peace and love…………………gene
mikeboll64,June wrote:[/quote]
Quote Good post, Charles. Thanks!
ALLELUIA!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Gene wrote:[/quote]
Quote you confirming what Carmel is saying only proves my point. Gene,
YOU HAVE NO POINTS!
UNLESS YOU PICK A VERSE FROM MY POST, AND CONTRADICT ME USING SCRIPTURE, AND PLEASE:
THERE'S NO ROOM FOR YOUR OPINION! WHEN DISCUSSING SCRIPTURES! WITH EVERY RESPECT!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (carmel @ June 14 2013,03:10) Gene wrote:[/quote]
Quote you confirming what Carmel is saying only proves my point. Gene,
YOU HAVE NO POINTS!
UNLESS YOU PICK A VERSE FROM MY POST, AND CONTRADICT ME USING SCRIPTURE, AND PLEASE:
THERE'S NO ROOM FOR YOUR OPINION! WHEN DISCUSSING SCRIPTURES! WITH EVERY RESPECT!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Charles,You made it all up.
Quote WHILE HE WAS STILL WITHIN HIM John 14:20
King James Version (KJV)20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Jesus has continuously been in God and God in him.
Note: I am not claiming Jesus preexisted his conception or that he was in God before he existed.
Quote (carmel @ June 12 2013,11:33) Mike, The only time the son watched the Father do things, was when the Father created the spiritual creatures, purposely THROUGH HIS SON!
John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.Charles, the above words of Jesus himself disagree with you.
They also disagree with Kerwin's claim that all Jesus knows about the Father came from the Holy Spirit. Here we see that many things Jesus knows about his Father came from directly watching his Father do things.
Two birds with one stone.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2013,09:40) You way off on this Mike if you don't think God reveals things to Jesus…………
Hi Gene,I'm not saying that God doesn't reveal things to Jesus. I have never thought such a thing, nor did I say it.
Can you find a scripture that says God ever revealed anything to Jesus via His Holy Spirit?
I know of one that says, Jesus, filled with joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth………”, but I don't know of any scripture that says anything at all was ever revealed to Jesus by the Father via the Holy Spirit. Do you know of one?
Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2013,08:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,06:01) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,06:51)
The Word who became flesh and dwelled on earth – the one John the Baptist came to testify about – IS a person. In fact, he wears sandals.
Mike,At the moment I lack the time to answer this post but it inspires me to ask “did Jesus come in the flesh and live among us when the Word became flesh?”
Jesus IS the Word, Kerwin. This is such a simple teaching when you compare Phil 2 with John 1. One speaks of the Word who was existing with God before being made flesh. The other speaks of Jesus who was existing with God before being made into a human being.There are about 50 other scriptures that also support these two, but you guys will have none of it.
Mike,We know Jesus came in the flesh because only the spirit of the antichrist teaches differently.
That is where my question comes from as you seem to be saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh.
You should agree Jesus came in the flesh and lived among us means the same thing as Jesus was made flesh and lived among us.
Kcame ,means he existed prior to his coming ,as a man in the flesh
iif, he was a man that became Christ ,then it would be, that Christ did not came in the flesh ,but that flesh was made to become the Christ ,and so this would be the antichrist
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,08:37) Please address this part, Kerwin: While it is true that certain things have been revealed to men via God's Spirit many times in scripture, this does not support your claim that ALL the things Jesus knew about God were revealed to him via God's Spirit. In fact, there isn't a scripture that says ANYTHING AT ALL was ever revealed to Jesus via God's Spirit.
On the other hand, there ARE scriptures where Jesus himself told us that he learned things from God DIRECTLY – by watching what his God did, and then doing the same.
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,21:02) Mike, The Spirit is the one that knows all things of God. He uses it to reveal his Wisdom. The Son also knows and reveals God's Wisdom.
Yes, God's Spirit knows the things of God. So does God's Son, Jesus Christ – and whomever the Son reveals Him to.This doesn't make the Holy Spirit of God the Son of God, Kerwin.
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,21:02) Jesus stated God revealed all things to him and we know God reveals his Wisdom by his Spirit.
But I've posted a scripture for Charles that says Jesus knows many things of God simply from WATCHING God do things. So to say that God ONLY (or for that matter, “EVER”) revealed things to Jesus via His Holy Spirit is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim. There is no meat to it. Nor does it make sense for God to reveal things to Jesus and the other angels via His Holy Spirit when He can just tell them those things face to face in heaven.Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,21:02) It is also written believers are taught by God even though God teaches by his Spirit.
Sometimes, Kerwin. Other times, like in the case of Moses, God reveals things to people DIRECTLY – without the use of His Holy Spirit.Kerwin, the bottom line is that you absolutely DON'T have a scripture to support your claim that Jesus even learned ONE SINGLE THING about his God via his God's Holy Spirit…….. let alone EVERYTHING he knows about God.
This will be my last response to you on this subject… UNTIL you can show scriptural support for your claim. (And that means a scripture where it is clear that Jesus learned something about his God from his God's Holy Spirit.)
Until you can show such evidence, it is of no value to me to keep refuting your imaginary claims. It would be like you claiming that Jesus is a polka-dotted bunny rabbit in heaven, and then I have to somehow try to refute that claim. It is a waste of my time.
So FIRST, get scriptural evidence that Jesus IS a polka-dotted bunny rabbit, and THEN it will be worth my time to either refute it, or jump on board with you.
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,20:47) That is where my question comes from as you seem to be saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh.
What?
I believe Jesus was existing in the form of God, having much glory alongside his God before the universe was created through him, and then came in the flesh.
Mike,
No scriptural support?
“For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God”.
“No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God”
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,21:15) Mike, Quote John 1:6-8
King James Version (KJV)6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.Subject is the light that is in the Word.
We've already discussed this, Kerwin. We've agreed that God can have light IN him, and yet still be CALLED “the light”. Likewise, the Word could have light IN him, and yet still be CALLED “the light of the world”.So the subject in the above is still “the Word” – just like it is all throughout John 1. The only difference is that John, after telling us that light was IN the Word, actually CALLED him “the light” in a couple of verses. John is calling Jesus “light” by way of “metonymy”, Kerwin.
me·ton·y·my
noun Rhetoric .
a figure of speech that consists of the use of the name of one object or concept for that of another to which it is related, or of which it is a part, as “scepter” for “sovereignty,” or “the bottle” for “strong drink,” or “count heads (or noses)” for “count people.”Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,21:15) Quote John 1:15
King James Version (KJV)15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Subject is the Word or the Word made flesh.
You are correct that the subject is, AGAIN, “the Word”……….. just like it is all throughout John 1. (There is no such entity known as “The Word-Made-Flesh”. That is of your own imagination. And although I've showed you over and over that the Greek word “kai” in verse 14 PROHIBITS that imaginary understanding, you still cling to it anyway. Why is that, Kerwin? )Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,21:15) Quote John 1:29-34 King James Version (KJV)
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Subject is the man Jesus Christ.
Yep. The subject is the same as it is all throughout John 1 – Jesus Christ who is also known in a couple of scriptures as the Word of God.Notice the particular words John the Baptist says in verse 30 that you quoted above, Kerwin. Now compare:
John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his (THE WORD'S) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.15 John bare witness of him (STILL TALKING ABOUT THE WORD), and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
How is it that John the Baptist says the EXACT SAME WORDS about “the Word” in verse 15, and “Jesus” in verse 30?
Kerwin, if you seriously cannot see such a simple and clear teaching because of your personal blinders, then how can I really help you? You have blinded yourself because of your personal wishes for Jesus to have been exactly like the rest of us. It is apparently quite difficult for the light of scripture to penetrate your self-inflicted blindness.
Just know that a 5 year old kid would have no problem understanding that if the same exact SPECIFIC words were said about “Bill”, and about “the President”, there's a good chance that “Bill” IS “the President”.
Now switch out “Bill” for “Jesus”, and “the President” for “the Word”, and apply that simple logic to John 1.
Quote (2besee @ June 13 2013,18:52) Mike, No scriptural support?
“For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God”.
“No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God”
2B,What I've been waiting for is a scripture that says Jesus learned ANYTHING AT ALL about his God from the Holy Spirit of his God.
What you've shown is that the spirit knows the thoughts of God. Okay.
Then you showed that Jesus and THOSE TO WHOM HE REVEALS THE FATHER know the Father.
Notice that it doesn't say Jesus or those others know the thoughts of God.
Your third verse simply supports the very scriptural fact that God sometimes reveals certain things to others via His Holy Spirit.
Do you see how none of this actually supports the claim that Jesus learned anything about God from the Holy Spirit? Do you see how the Spirit is said to know THE THOUGHTS of God, while the Son is said to KNOW THE FATHER?
They aren't even talking about the same thing, yet you guys use this as “proof” that the Holy Spirit of God is the Son of God.
Like I told Kerwin, I'm done discussing it UNTIL you can show me your EXACT claim from scripture. The ones you listed don't even come close.
Mike, you are blind from seeing that those three scriptures are speaking of the same “beings”: God in one passage is the Father in the next; the Spirit in one passage is the Son in the next.
The reason that you can NOT see it, is because you use your own intellect. God reveals nothing to us through our own intellect alone, but only through the Spirit.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
You have your own agenda, rather than God's. NO WAY could Mike have it, because then you have to say that God is one God.
Enough is enough, may your blindness be removed in the name of Jesus Christ amen.
Quote (2besee @ June 14 2013,06:52) Mike, No scriptural support?
“For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God”.
“No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God”
2besee,I believe Mike knows the argument but does not want to believe it and has not come up with a better response at this time,even though he things there is one, than denial.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2013,06:03) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,20:47) That is where my question comes from as you seem to be saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh.
What?I believe Jesus was existing in the form of God, having much glory alongside his God before the universe was created through him, and then came in the flesh.
Mike,Do you then believe that “made flesh” and “come in the flesh” meant the same thing?
Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2013,09:15) Mike, Quote John 1:6-8
King James Version (KJV)6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.Subject is the light that is in the Word.
Quote John 1:15
King James Version (KJV)15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Subject is the Word or the Word made flesh.
Quote John 1:29-34 King James Version (KJV)
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Subject is the man Jesus Christ.
Mike,The flour was made cake.
This is the flour made cake.“was made” and “made” are the same word but different parts of English.
Three subjects, each a different quality, none are repeated, each claim goes to reveal Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2013,15:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2013,06:03) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,20:47) That is where my question comes from as you seem to be saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh.
What?I believe Jesus was existing in the form of God, having much glory alongside his God before the universe was created through him, and then came in the flesh.
Mike,Do you then believe that “made flesh” and “come in the flesh” meant the same thing?
Kerwin………I have told MIke that before Spirit cannot be Flesh, it can only come to be “IN” Flesh. Mike doesn't take a lot of thing litterial in scripture, yet when it come to this scripture he thinks the spirit literially became flesh. That is because he can not accept it the other way, or he then has to admit , Jesus was not the Word or a God Mentioned in John 1:1 , He does not understand that God who is Sprit, was “IN” the Flesh MAN JESUS, and in that “SENSE” the Word (GOD) came to be (IN) Jesus. God the FAther was PRESENT “IN” Jesus Just as he said he was. IMOpeace and lvoe to you and yours………………………….gene
mikeboll64,June wrote:[/quote]
Quote Charles, the above words of Jesus himself disagree with you. Mike,
Please NOT JUST READ WITHOUT REFLECT A BIT
I SAID:
The only time the son watched the Father do things,
NOTICE: THE SON WATCHED THE FATHER, so the son was only watching, THE FATHER WAS CREATING BUT HE USED THE SON'S SPRIT!
THIS PARTICULAR FUNCTION THE FATHER DID WHEN HE CREATED THE SPIRITUAL REALMS!
NOW YOU SAID:
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;
HERE THOUGH THE SON IS NOT WATCHING LIKE HE WAS WHEN HE WAS WITHIN THE FATHER!
BUT HE WAS FULLFILLING WHAT HE CREATED PREVIOUSLY ! BUT THE FATHER WAS WITHIN THE SON, THE OPPOSITE HE WAS BEFORE! OBVIOUS HE WAS CREATING THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HIS FATHER CREATED PREVIOUSLY! NO?
he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
AGAIN THE SON WAS DOING THINGS, NOT JUST WATCHING, LIKE WHAT HE DID WHEN HE WAS A SPIRIT WITHIN HIS FATHER!
THEREFORE HE WAS WATCHING HIMSELF ALL WHAT HE WAS MANIFESTING IN THE FLESH WHICH WAS WHAT HIS FATHER WAS ACTUALLY DOING BY JESUS BUT SPIRITUALLY, WHICH ONLY THE SON COULD SEE!
WE KNOW THAT JESUS WORDS WERE THE FATHER'S
WE ALSO KNOW THAT JESUS' WORKS WERE ALSO THE FATHER'S
THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING! MIKE!
IT IS THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE TO EVERYTHING!
THAT'S WHY JESUS WAS GOD IN FLESH!
BECAUSE JESUS' FLESH SUBSTANCE WAS THE FATHER'S SUBSTANCE!
BECAUSE JESUS' SOULS WAS THE FATHER'S SOUL!
BECAUSE JESUS' SPIRIT WAS THE FATHER'S SPIRIT!
because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
OBVIOUS THE FATHER WAS IN THE SON,AND THE SON WAS IN THE FATHER,
THEY WERE ONE IN EVERY SENSE
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
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