- This topic has 25,868 replies, 115 voices, and was last updated 18 hours, 24 minutes ago by
.
- Posts
Hi DT,
You: You: JESUS and LUCIFER! THE VERY FIRST-EVER MARRIAGE
Me: HA HA HA HA HA HA!! Don’t think I have ever read that in God’s word or anything interpreted as such
John3:28 You yourselves do bear me witness, that I said, I am not Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom:
but the friend of the bridegroom, who standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth with joy because of the bridegroom’s voice. This my joy therefore is fulfilled.
ANSWER DT:
THE BRIDEGROOM IS DEFINITELY
JESUS CHRIST!
TELL ME NOW:
WHO IS THE BRIDE IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE?
You: What’s funny, science recently discovered stars emit a sound wave and they refer to it as the “symphony of the stars” – they “sing” and God revealed this to Job thousands of years ago. Again, just read what is there and quit reading between the lines of everything…
it has to be painful to have your mind constantly justifying every word you read to make it into something “spiritual.”
NOT AT ALL I JUST RECEIVE IT IMMEDIATELY WHILE I AM READING, ALWAYS WHEN AND HOW IT PLEASES HIM.
BY THE WAY: I NEVER SAID THEY WERE NOT SINGING, OK? JUST READ AGAIN WHAT I SAID IN THIS REGARD:
IN WHAT WAY THEN, THE MORNING STARS “ONLY” WERE TOGETHER?
THE SONS OF GOD WERE NOT ALSO
TOGETHER WHILE MAKING A JOYFUL MELODY?
LIKEWISE, IN WHAT WAY THE SONS OF GOD MADE A JOYFUL MELODY?
JUST REFLECT A BIT FOR A WHILE,
ISN’T IT CLEAR TO YOU, THAT ALL THE ABOVE DETAILS REGARDING THE MORNING STARS AND THE SONS OF GOD, ARE THROUGHOUT A REFERENCE TO A SPIRITUAL PROCESS?
THIS PHYSICAL WORLD WAS NOT YET CREATED AT ALL?
HOW ON EARTH, AT THIS EARLY STAGE OF CREATION, ONLY SPIRITUAL, THE FACT THAT IT WAS IN FULL HARMONY WITH GOD WHO SPIRIT, AND FOR HIM
FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING,
A PERSON FAMILIAR WITH SCRIPTURE AND ITS MYSTERIES, SHOULD FOCUS ONLY ON SOMETHING MATERIAL THEN?
THAT PERSON FOR ME IS MORE THAN
CARNALLY MINDED!
SINCE HE IS IGNORING PRECISELY THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME, THE BEGINNING OF CREATION,
ONLY THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF CREATION.
LIKE YOU I’M AFRAID! WITH EVERY RESPECT!!!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Proclaimer,
We need both YHWH and his Son Jesus Christ for salvation.
John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.Here we see that we are BOTH, in the hand of Jesus Christ and in the hand of his Father.
Maybe you should talk more about that in your forum.
Just a suggestion and a very important one.Response to post 946020
Is the “holy spirit” a separate person of God like trinitarians believe or is “holy” just a description of God’s spirit? After all in the Tanakh “holy Spirit” is said three times and every time it’s said, “holy” is an adjective describing God’s “Spirit.” You say you don’t believe in the trinity, yet you use the trinitarian language all the time and create the “holy spirit” as a separate being from God.
You still quote from the liar Paul?!?! So you are okay with Paul saying he robbed the early church, lying to Galatia about what was spoken at this council of Jerusalem, teaching Corinth it’s okay to eat food sacrificed to idols (even though it was determined not to), hates the Torah, whines to Timothy about all of Asia rejecting him (wonder why), claims to be the 13th apostle (only 12 per Jesus), only he receives “special revelations” (one else, just him), continually says “I’m telling the truth” (this doesn’t raise any concerns). Why do I reject the “teachings” of Paul?!? Why can’t I say the NT is the inspired word of God? How much more proof do you need? I guess the larger question is, will you continue to gloss over the obvious or open your eyes?
Anyways, let’s look again at Isa 53. In verse 1 this “our” is giving a report? “Our” is plural, so the speaker is representing “multiple people” and obviously can’t be referencing a singular Isaiah. Who is this “our” and what is this “report” no one will believe?
Verse 2, the KJV says “he shall grow up before him”; explain why every other translation doesn’t use the future tense, but uses the past tense “he grew up”? Why does the KJV change the tense to be a future event, instead of a past event? So is Jesus before Isaiah?
Verse 3, When was Jesus ever said to be “a man of sorrows” in the NT and “acquainted with diseases/illness/sickness/grief”. KJV uses “grief” and the others are similar in meaning, what does “grief” here mean? Also, who hid their face from Jesus and considered him insignificant? The religious leaders thought Jesus to be a “threat” due to his rise in popularity.
Verse 4, “he bore our sickness and carried our suffering”; again, this “our” keeps coming up – who is this “our” that’s speaking?!? And the person they’re speaking of is plagued and afflicted by God. Was it God who afflicted Jesus, causing him all the pain, suffering, and sickness described in these verses? God killed his “only begotten” son so mankind would have a way to be saved; because the way God “saved” is somehow flawed and didn’t work anymore? Remember, it’s God, the Almighty, creator of everything and everyone we are speaking of. You must have a small God who requires a “helper.”
I took the Hebrew text of verse 4 and translated it to English; a little different than the KJV:
“Indeed we fell ill, he bore and from our pains they suffered, and we thought him afflicted by the blow of God and tortured him.” In the last part, we (“our” from verse 1) thought him (suppose to be Jesus) afflicted by God and tortured him. The gospels teach the religious leaders hated Jesus and wanted him gone, not that they thought he was afflicted by God and tortured him; so the “our” can’t be them. Who is this “our”?
Verse 5, “He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds, crushed because of our sins; he endured punishment that made us well; because of his wounds we have been healed..” Again we have this “our”, “us”, and “we” (this is the same “our” from verse 1 speaking for the many) and of course “he.” Whose rebellious deeds and sins wounded and crushed whom? But, “he” endures punishment and makes “us” well; how was Jesus punished and how does one being punished make anyone “well”, let alone being whipped heal anyone? Explain!
There is a lot going on here with many questions asked and explanations needed; so I will stop here. Explain what you believe and why you believe this chapter speaks of Jesus and the surrounding ones don’t.
You asked “Don’t you want to believe in him?” Believe in whom, Jesus? Why would I believe in a man? The Tanakh tells me the Messiah is a descendant of David, yet Jesus was conceived of the spirit according to Matthew and Luke and NOT of the seed of David. Explain! Matthew lies about Isa 7:14; read the chapter and tell me it speaks of a the Messiah, let a lone Jesus.
@Gene,
Response to post 946034
If you have been reading my comments to others, you would know my stance on Paul. I have given references/passages showing how Paul is deceptive; yet, not a word to the contrary.
You keep bringing up the “law doesn’t justify”, where in the Tanakh does it state anyone is justified by the Law given to Moses; God says to keep and do them. In Gen 26:5, Abraham obeyed God and kept HIS charge, HIS commandments, HIS statutes, and HIS laws. So what did Abraham know, keep, and do (long before God gave Moses the “613 laws”) that made him righteous before God?
What was the purpose of the laws given to Moses if all they are is “forced compliance”? Why would God tell the people these “laws” are not hard to follow? Have you read any of the 613 Laws? What of these following commands given to “the evil hearted ISRAELITES” do you consider “forced compliance”:
– Make a guard rail around flat roofs—Deuteronomy 22:8 (how dare anyone make a structure safe)
– Not to have homosexual sexual relations—Leviticus 18:22 (God calls this an abomination)
– Not to crossbreed animals—Leviticus 19:19 (self explanatory, but God is forcing you not to)
– To leave a corner of the field uncut for the poor—Leviticus 19:10 (forced compliance??!?!?)
– To give charity—Deuteronomy 15:11 (another taking care of those who fall on rough times)
– Not to stand idly by if someone’s life is in danger—Leviticus 19:16 (how dare any protect the weak)
Do you tithe, that’s one of the 613 “laws” given to Moses; because you do “tithe”, this “law” isn’t “forced compliance” for you, but to the Jew before the Jesus it is? Remember, the tithe was given to the Levitical priests because they didn’t have an inheritance; is that whom you are giving it, because that is what the “law” says? These 613 “laws” were given to whom (“10 Commandments” are also part of the 613) – the Jew or the world? I’ll help you, the Laws were given to the Jew; what does God expect of the none Jew? Is the none Jew to worship God by worshiping/believing in/having faith in a man?
Your belief in “forced compliance” of the Law is a lie; the Law is a guideline of how one is to worship God and how one is to treat each other. Each individual wasn’t responsible to keep each of the 613 Laws at all times; there were laws for men and women, laws the priests were to follow, laws of responsibility toward others, laws on the way to treat others; Paul lies when he said they were only to point out sin. How christianity has been dooped!
You: The definite article, “the” was added to the text, look it up.
Me: I tried to and didn’t find anything, please cite your source.
You: for all the law is fulfilled in one word, “you shall love our neighbor as yourself.”
Me: Funny, didn’t Jesus give two laws. Did you notice Paul said “all the law (commands) is fulfilled in one word” and he didn’t include the most important “law”, to love God with all of your being. Are you waking up!??!
You also need to explain Rev 22:14 “Blessed are they that do his commandments (aka “laws”), that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” John states the commandments bring life and you claim they’re irrelevant.
@DT
It doesn’t matter if the Holy Spirit is a person or not….The point in Isaiah 53 is that a sin-bearer is mentioned…
Without him we wouldn’t even be here to talk about it.@Berean,
You: It doesn’t matter if the Holy Spirit is a person or not…
Me: It does if you are looking for truth. Apparently the truth isn’t a concern for you.Thank you for your perfect none response, proving you have know idea why you believe what you believe. Remain in your slumber of religion and continue to ignore the obvious.
Excuse me but the subject is not about the Holy Spirit but about the sin-bearer in Isaiah 53.
But he was wounded for our transgressions👈, he was bruised for our iniquities: 👈 the chastisement of our peace was👉 upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD hath laid 👉on him the iniquity of us all.👈You’re excused!
The holy spirit was a brief section, then I moved onto the great liar of the NT because you quoted him, and the part you were suppose to focus on was after that – Isa 53:1-5. If you would have read what I wrote in its entirety you would have picked up on this portion where I painstakingly dissected verses 1-5 and asked a series of questions that you didn’t bother to answer. This tells me you have no idea what you believe or why, have only a surface understanding of what is written, and you believe only what your religion told you to believe.
You respond with pointy fingers; do you believe pointing to a phrase will articulate your understanding and make everything clearer. Responding to the questions with your own thoughts on why you believe what you believe does convey a level of understanding, thus creating dialog.
But pointy fingers don’t explain anything do they!
Judging by your lack of answers to the questions asked, you really don’t know what you believe or why, which is sad. How are you bringing anyone to the Jesus if you can’t answer questions asked and explain the why? You seem like the typical uneducated christian who parrots all they hear; limited by their belief system in their understanding.
I started digging into the writings of Paul and discovered he is a liar. I started verifying verses quoted from the Tanakh in the Greek Testament (NT) and they don’t match. I started comparing the messiahs of the Tanakh and Greek Testament and found they differed; who am I to believe, the Jesus of the Greek Testament and a liar or God speaking through HIS prophets? Read Jonah, but pay very close to the last few verses…enlightening!
Maybe I should disregard everything I have learned over these last several months and go back to smashing the “I believe button” of christianity and shut up; and be like every other christian arguing over what they believe the Greek Testament says. Except, I want to know what God said.
Good luck to you and hopefully the “rapture” happens, but I wouldn’t get your hopes to high.
@Danny,
Response to post 946037
You: Those sacrifices you are talking about were for false gods.
Me: Of course they were and God said they were detestable.
You: Shame on you for making no distinction at all.
Me: What distinction am I suppose to make? God said human sacrifice is detestable and Jesus is said to be the sacrificial lamb, the Passover lamb, the sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. So Jesus gave himself up (sacrificed himself) and his blood is for the atonement of mankind’s sins. BUT god says blood isn’t necessary for forgiveness. Since God doesn’t require blood for forgiveness, what is the point of Jesus’ blood and keep in mind human sacrifice is detestable?
As I pointed out in a previous post no man can take on the sins of another, yet that’s what the writers of the NT said Jesus did. Let’s say Isa 53 is pointing to Jesus, as the messiah, where else in the Tanakh does it state the messiah was to die for the sins of mankind…need two witnesses; God repeated HIMSELF constantly, but concerning the redemption of mankind through the human sacrifice of the messiah – “once.” Something doesn’t add up.
Response to post 946042
You: Animal sacrifices offered to the only true God YHWH, were a picture pointing forward to the final, all-sufficient sacrifice made by Jesus Christ his Son.
Me: Explain Jer 33:14-18 “Behold, days are coming,’ declares the Lord…and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.” This chapter is speaking of the restoration of Israel and Judah, which we know hasn’t happened yet. Once Israel and Judah are restored these offerings and sacrifices will be restored, explain this if Jesus was the “all-sufficient sacrifice.” Explain why the restoration of Israel and Judah are never spoken of in the NT, but God speaks of this through many of HIS prophets. Something doesn’t align; did our unchanging God, change?
You: The Book of Hebrews is the best book regarding these matters.
Me: The “book” of Hebrews shouldn’t be called a “book”, but trash and stripped from the pages of the NT. I put no value in that book and have gone over the corruption in the first chapter posted here (945980). Verify what I wrote and if I am wrong, explain why.
DT……You: The definite article, “the” was added to the text, look it up.
Me: I tried to and didn’t find anything, please cite your source.
You: for all the law is fulfilled in one word, “you shall love our neighbor as yourself.”
Me: Funny, didn’t Jesus give two laws. Did you notice Paul said “all the law (commands) is fulfilled in one word” and he didn’t include the most important “law”, to love God with all of your being. Are you waking up!??!
You also need to explain Rev 22:14 “Blessed are they that do his commandments (aka “laws”), that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” John states the commandments bring life and you claim they’re irrelevant.
DT, here is my sources……to the definite articulate “the” not being in the text. read the Greek original text to this , “by the works of “the” law , no flesh shall be justified before God.” You will see that the article “the” is not there. Commandments are not laws , when you apply “law”. to commandments, them they become , “enforced” commandments , as I clearly shown in scripture, Ex 20:20. The reason God turned his loving commandments into Law, was because of their (the Israelites) unbelief in him. As Ex 20:20 clearly shows. The commandments were forever, but the law was from mount EX 20:20. Just as Moses said, “that the “Fear” of him might be before you eyes , that you sin not”. Gods loving commandments were turned in “LAWS” to generate “FEAR” , and cause them to obey God.
But none of that changed any of them in their hearts, because there is, “NO LAW” that can make a persons heart right and therefore ” by works of law (the way law works) no flesh can be justified before GOD”. The apostle Paul is absolutely right, in what he said, for those who have eyes to see, and have not closed theirs ears to hear.
Jesus didn’t give two “laws”, he gave two “commandments”, both show the word “LOVE” in them , so them “LOVE” fulfills “ALL” the law> jus as Paul said>
Paul is right, all the law is fulfilled in one “word” , “you shall “LOVE”. your neighbor as your self” It is the “LOVE” of God shed abroad in our hearts that fulfills all the requirements of law . Even the Gentiles who did not have the Law, (forced compliance) were able to do everything required by the law, that showed obedience to Gods commandments by the, “love of God shed abroad in their hearts by GOD “.“The law (forced compliance) was made for evil Carmel transgressors, like those evil Israelites in the wilderness were, just as scripture clearly shows.
peace and love to you and yours DT…………gene
Hebrews 10:28-29
28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?@Gene,
You ignored where in the Tanakh the “laws” “justified” anyone.
You ignored what made Abraham righteous as he kept God’s commandments, statutes, and laws all before they were given to the Israelite’s at Mt. Sinai. Something tells me these commands, statutes, and laws are really written on everyone’s hearts.
You ignored how the few commands I listed are “forced compliance.” If I were to quickly summarize these commands, it would be to “love God and love others.” Sounds very similar to what Jesus said.
You ignored the comment on tithing – did that hit a little to close?
I don’t understand why you constantly disparage the Jewish people, aren’t they God’s chosen or did our unchanging God change his mind here too?
Will I get an explanation of Rev 22:14 or not?
If commandments are not part of the law, give me an example of each.
I don’t think it matters whether the definite article “the” is written in the Greek or not, it doesn’t change what Paul is talking about, the Torah. If you would like to get picky, the fact “the” isn’t there means Paul can be referring to any “law” because the usage of definite article “the” before the noun points the reader to something specific and/or unique. Because we know Paul is speaking of the Torah the definite article “the” in the English translation is added to emphasize he isn’t speaking of Roman law or any other law. Why make this beyond difficult? Now that we know Paul is speaking of the Torah, answer where it states in the Torah justifies anyone as Paul claims?
When you say “commandments are not laws”; this statement is confusing to me, the “law” is the first five books of the Tanakh. I thought we established this months ago when we were discussing Jesus saying “all the law and the prophets” and the “law” spoken by Jesus are the books written by Moses; did Paul change the meaning? What is written within those pages are “commandments” given by God to the nation of Israel – 613 to be exact. Look up mitzvah and what it is; unfortunately any real discussion of this term will take you to one of those “evil hearted Israelite’s” page.
You: “The reason God turned his loving commandments into Law, was because of their (the Israelite’s) unbelief in him. As Ex 20:20 clearly shows.”
Me: How?!? Did you read this chapter at all?!? Starting in verse 1 God begins speaking to the people, giving them what we call the 10 Commandments. From verse 18 (we like context) And all the people were seeing the thunder and the lightning and the sound of the ram’s horn and the mountain smoking, and the people saw, and they trembled, and they stood at a distance. 19 And they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will listen, but let not God speak with us, lest we die.” 20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you so that his fear will be before you so that you do not sin.” 21 And the people stood at a distance, and Moses approached the very thick cloud where God was.” God was speaking to all the people in this moment and they feared the voice of God; fearing they would die if they continued to hear HIM speak. Turning to Moses they wanted him to talk to God on their behalf and would listen to him. Moses reassures them and not to be afraid. Tell me, if you were standing there, what would be your response to listening to a booming voice coming from a cloud that encompassed a mountain? Highly doubt you would be standing there “praising” God; you would have soiled yourself in HIS presence. Which brings up another point, how much “fear” does the christian today have of God or is it the “Jesus buffer” that allows you to be arrogant toward God?
Why was God “testing” them and what was HE testing them for? The statement doesn’t make much sense as no reasoning is given to why they are being tested. However, digging into this further, another possible meaning suggests it was for the people to have a vivid, sensory experience of God. This fits with the verse, because they experienced God and the fear they were feeling would be a deterrent to sin. In reading this passage I see nowhere God turning HIS “loving” commandments into “LAWS” to generate “FEAR.” Why are you making this so difficult?
@Danny,
You obviously didn’t read this link.
Read it, verify what I said, and get back to me…should you dare.
What is precious in your quoting of Heb 10:28 is what it says concerning the “law”; “A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion…” Your welcome Gene!
The author of Hebrews is making the point that if the punishment for violating the law of Moses is so severe, then how much more severe must the punishment be for rejecting the salvation offered through the sacrifice of Christ?
@Danny,
It wasn’t I didn’t understand what was written; the point was really for Gene, if he’s still paying attention, where the unknown author of Hebrews says the punishment for violating the law of Moses is severe; meaning there must still be a punishment for violating God’s laws. That’s all.
I presume you still haven’t read the link I posted discussing the veracity of the book of Hebrews. It was a reply to Jodi, so you have to skip the first few paragraphs before I discuss the book.
DT…….show me the scripture where it say Moses keep Gods “laws” . Tell me of one Sabbath day he keep, tell me which “Synagogue”, He attended, for that matter tell where his sons, Issac ,Jacob, ever did either. Post them here for us all to see.
There is “ONLY” , three things God requires us to do.
MIC 6;8…..> “He has shewed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do “JUSTLY”, and to “LOVE” MERCY, and to walk “HUMBLY” with your God” . Abraham was a man who believed God , a just man, and loved mercy, and walked humbly with hm.All the rest was added, because of “unbelief “. Just as Paul and Jesus clearly showed us all> Those Jew who killed Jesus were some of the most ungodly people that ever lived, They wanted his blood to be on their heads and their children’s head and so it was, and is, as history clearly shows, they have no peace, even now.
The “loving commandments”, which were turned into laws, at the mountain, were for those , ungodly deeds those ungodly and unbelieving people were committing. That is what scripture clearly shows. The Apostle Paul was exactly right in what he said, and that is why the Jews to this day hate him> DT we will see where your new Jewish faith and hatred of Paul and Jesus as the messiah, will get you in the end, won’t we? . Repent DT.
Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene
DT…….show me the scripture where it say Moses keep Gods “laws” . Tell me of one Sabbath day he keep, tell me which “Synagogue”, He attended, for that matter tell where his sons, Issac ,Jacob, ever did either. Post them here for us all to see.
There is “ONLY” , three things God requires us to do.
MIC 6;8…..> “He has shewed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do “JUSTLY”, and to “LOVE” MERCY, and to walk “HUMBLY” with your God” . Abraham was a man who believed God , a just man, and loved mercy, and walked humbly with hm.All the rest was added, because of “unbelief “. Just as Paul and Jesus clearly showed us all> Those Jew who killed Jesus were some of the most ungodly people that ever lived, They wanted his blood to be on their heads and their children’s head and so it was, and is, as history clearly shows, they have no peace, even now.
The “loving commandments”, which were turned into laws, at the mountain, were for those , ungodly deeds those ungodly and unbelieving people were committing. That is what scripture clearly shows. The Apostle Paul was exactly right in what he said, and that is why the Jews to this day hate him> DT we will see where your new Jewish faith and hatred of Paul and Jesus as the messiah, will get you in the end, won’t we? . Repent DT.
Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
