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Apparently what you write is being hidden from me or to whomever you are responding to; just another period ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Desire Truth…….Isaiah was a prophet to the kingdom of Judah, not sent to The kingdom of Israel or the rest of the world, as you seem to insist, he was talking about his sins and the Nation of Judah, so if you understand that, then the People being spoken of in the Prophecy could not have been Israel , it’s just that simple.
Another point you need to consider, the nation of Israel was not even in existence when that prophesy was give , they were already taken in captivity by Assyria and remove from their land. The only ones remaining was the Kingdom of Judah. If you insist that it was Israel who was the stuffing servant being mentioned there, then it is incumbent on you to tell us how they were a “SUFFERING” ” SERVANT”, then right? Please explain that to us.
peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth…….gene
Of the best-known prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning the death of Messiah, Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 certainly stand out. Psalm 22 is especially amazing since it predicted numerous separate elements about Jesus’ crucifixion a thousand years before Jesus was crucified. Here are some examples. Messiah will have His hands and His feet “pierced” through (Psalm 22:16; John 20:25). The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) (Psalm 22:17; John 19:33). Men will cast lots for Messiah’s clothing (Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35).
Isaiah 53, the classic messianic prophecy known as the “Suffering Servant” prophecy, also details the death of Messiah for the sins of His people. More than 700 years before Jesus was even born, Isaiah provides details of His life and death. The Messiah will be rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Luke 13:34). The Messiah will be killed as a vicarious sacrifice for the sins of His people (Isaiah 53:5–9; 2 Corinthians 5:21). The Messiah will be silent in front of His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; 1 Peter 2:23). The Messiah will be buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57–60). The Messiah will be with criminals in His death (Isaiah 53:12; Mark 15:27).
In addition to the death of the Jewish Messiah, His resurrection from the dead is also foretold. The clearest and best known of the resurrection prophecies is the one penned by Israel’s King David in Psalm 16:10, also written a millennium before the birth of Jesus: “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.”
On the Jewish feast day of Shavuot (Weeks or Pentecost), when Peter preached the first gospel sermon, he boldly asserted that God had raised Jesus the Jewish Messiah from the dead (Acts 2:24). He then explained that God had performed this miraculous deed in fulfillment of David’s prophecy in Psalm 16. In fact, Peter quoted the words of David in detail as contained in Psalm 16:8–11. Some years later, Paul did the same thing when he spoke to the Jewish community in Antioch. Like Peter, Paul declared that God had raised Messiah Jesus from the dead in fulfillment of Psalm 16:10 (Acts 13:33–35).
The resurrection of the Messiah is strongly implied in another Davidic psalm. Again, this is Psalm 22. In verses 19–21, the suffering Savior prays for deliverance “from the lion’s mouth” (a metaphor for Satan). This desperate prayer is then followed immediately in verses 22–24 by a hymn of praise in which the Messiah thanks God for hearing His prayer and delivering Him. The resurrection of the Messiah is clearly implied between the ending of the prayer in verse 21 and the beginning of the praise song in verse 22.
And back again to Isaiah 53: after prophesying that the Suffering Servant of God would suffer for the sins of His people, the prophet says He would then be “cut off out of the land of the living.” But Isaiah then states that He (Messiah) “will see His offspring” and that God the Father will “prolong His days” (Isaiah 53:5, 8, 10). Isaiah proceeds to reaffirm the promise of the resurrection in different words: “As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see light and be satisfied” (Isaiah 53:11).
@ Danny Dabbs
Amen!
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.(Amos3:7)
Hi Desiretruth,
You: @Carmel
I am super confused by what you’re actually looking for.
I don’t blame you. Read hereunder:
Matthew 13:12For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound:
BUT HE THAT HATH NOT,
FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY THAT ALSO WHICH HE HATH,
You: I have already explained what I believe is happening in these verses.
For some reason you believe there is more.
Me: AND HOW!
You: All I read is Daniel praising God for revealing a dream that was “hidden.”
Fine:
Daniel 2:22 He reveals the deep and the hidden things;
Me: Daniel is praising God alright but for God’s sake, not just for what God reveals to him!
God reveals the DEEP and the hidden THINGS, not just of that particular dream. NO?
Daniel praised God GENERALLY.
Also Daniel, in that verse, enlightened us more than you think!
…he knows what is in darkness, and light dwells with him.
In the above Daniel said
GOD KNOWS WHAT’S IN “DARKNESS”.
NOW, IF WITHIN DARKNESS THERE’S SOMETHING MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN, WHAT IN ACTUAL FACT IS IT?
You: You keep asking what the “darkness” is as if it is a “being” and I told you
it’s the lack of light. Is this not good enough for you?
BUT ONLY FROM ONE PARTICULAR PERSPECTIVE!
DON’T TELL ME THAT YOU TAKE THIS GENERALLY AS WELL!
Nevertheless, always according to your conclusion, whatever is within darkness is definitely
NOT LIGHT!
You: The “darkness” spoken of in Daniel is the same “darkness” spoken of in Gen 1:2
Me: WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE?
YES and NO!
In a particular way and in relation to “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of man, since ALL IN/BY HIM, the word darkness in Genesis 1:2 is both a reference to a different state of darkness from Daniel and also to JESUS’PREEXISTENCE AS A SPIRIT, Slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev. 13:8, the fact that God, by the pronouncement “LET THERE BE LIGHT”, a clear reference to JESUS, THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, was about to commence the physical creation VERY GOOD precisely from within darkness itself. Attention please:
But be aware, the darkness in Genesis 1:2 is definitely both not related to the devil, and also without THE LEAST participation from the devil. In fact, the devil was never in any way involved in creation yet.
On the other hand, in Daniel, though God AGAIN, by and through “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man as a spirit, THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, was in full control, the word darkness is a reference to the evil state of the world, where the devil dominated humanity and desperately needed THE REDEEMER, WHO, in that particular moment in time, was MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN in darkness, DARKNESS ITSELF, Psalm 139:12, BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD Matthew 13:44, in the entire process of the “darkness” creation, Isaiah 45:7 the fact that Daniel said:
“he knows what “IS” in darkness”,
again a clear reference to
“THE WORD” Jesus as a spirit,
“THE DEEP DARKNESS” MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN within!
Ironically well hinted out in the scripture you posted:
Read:
Job 12:22 “He reveals mysteries from the darkness and
brings the deep darkness into light.”
John, the most OT gospel and spiritual MADE IT AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL and gave us
THE TRUTH of this MYSTERIOUS OT scripture, and said:
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness,
You: I told you it’s the lack of light.
Is this not good enough for you?
DT. WAS IT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME? As you can well read, AFTER ALL IN THE ABOVE,
DARKNESS IS NOT ONLY THE LACK OF LIGHT AT ALL,
DON’T YOU THINK SO, IT CLEARLY SAYS:
THE LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS!
NOW READ THE NEXT PIECE
and “DARKNESS” did not comprehend it.
Now read again
Job 12:22 “He reveals MYSTERIES from the DARKNESS and
brings THE DEEP DARKNESS into LIGHT.”
From the above now we have another perspective and this is that there is both DARKNESS and also DEEP DARKNESS!
Also, God brings this DEEP DARKNESS into LIGHT!
You: You keep asking what the “darkness” is as if it is a “being”
Now I’m afraid I have to ask you again, but this time not just if darkness is a being
BUT, ARE DARKNESS and DEEP DARKNESS TWO SEPERATE BEINGS?
Also, both of us NOW could presume who IN A WAY, THE BEING DARKNESS IS I suppose, though I believe you are STILL A BIT SCEPTICAL, and if you are still a bit skeptical regarding darkness as a being, how would you be regarding
WHO THIS DEEP DARKNESS IS THEN?
Just read another scripture, this time regarding DARKNESS, as for God it doesn’t make any difference, DARKNESS OR DEEP DARKNESS, since ALL IN/BY “THE WORD” which in this case is very familiar to you I suppose since it is mentioned in
Isaiah 42:16 And I will lead the blind into
THE WAY WHICH THEY KNOW NOT:
WHO ARE THE BLIND?
ISRAEL, THE GENTILES, or BOTH?
How will God LEADS THEM into the way WHICH THEY KNOW NOT?
and in the paths
WHICH THEY WERE IGNORANT OF I WILL MAKE THEM WALK:
The same with the above, HOW GOD MAKES THEM WALK THE PATHS WHICH THEY WERE IGNORANT OF? Here it comes:
I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT
BEFORE THEM,
and crooked things straight:
these things have I done to them, and have not forsaken them.
NOW WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT THE ABOVE ESPECIALLY
“I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT”
IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS’ GLORY ON HIS DEATH, WHERE DARKNESS WAS JESUS. Isaiah 53:9,
IN FRONT OF THE GENTILES!
Now in view of the above:
AREN’T DARKNESS and DEEP DARKNESS TITLES?
AREN’T DARKNESS and DEEP DARKNESS BEINGS?
ISN’T DARKNESS in Genesis 1:2, Daniel 2:22, and Isaiah 42:16 THE SAME DARKNESS, but also NOT?
You: the first thing God created was “light.”
Me: NOT QUITE, THAT WAS A REFERENCE TO JESUS, WITHIN THE PROCESS OF CREATION AS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD. ALL IN/BY HIM. THE PHYSICAL LIGHT WAS CREATED ON THE FOURTH DAY.
Then God separated the “light” from the “darkness.”
THERE YOU ARE, GOD SEPARATED THE STATE OF THE SPIRITUAL DARKNESS OF THE PROCESS OF CREATION CAUSED BY THE REBELLIOUS ANGELS AGAIN THROUGH/BY “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB…..Rev.13:8
THUS, SEPARATED FROM THE SPIRITUAL LIGHT OF THE PROCESS OF CREATION ESTABLISHED BY THE HEAVENLY ANGELS ALL IN THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, WHO JOINED THE CREATION PROCESS BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, BETWEEN LIGHT AND DARKNESS! Well asserted in
Joihn4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he that soweth, and he that reapeth, may rejoice together. 37For in this is the saying true: That it is one man that soweth, and it is another that reapeth.
38I have sent you to reap that in which you did not labour:
others have laboured,
and you have entered into their labours.
You: What exactly are you looking for?!?
Me: THE TRUTH!
You: Then you somehow believe because the “light” is “with” God that it too is a separate being.
Me: “THE LIGHT IS WITH GOD” IS A CLEAR REFERENCE ALSO TO JESUS,
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD,
JESUS ETERNALLY WAS WITH GOD THE FATHER AND VICE VERSA.
THE FACT THAT GOD KNOWS WHAT IS IN DARKNESS IS PRECISELY THE TRUTH THAT JESUS, IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD ENGRAFTED AS A SPIRIT IN ALL CREATURES’ HEARTS, AS ETERNAL LIFE, IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION ALL IN/BY HIM. THUS, WHATEVER THE FATHER PRONOUNCES FROM WITHIN JESUS’ HEART, JESUS FULFILLS INSTANTLY IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION. Well hinted out in
John8:23 And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I AM HE, you shall die in your sin. 25They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you. 26Many things I have to speak and to judge of you. But he that sent me, is true:
AND THE THINGS I HAVE HEARD OF HIM, these same I speak in the world.
This now twice I have answered your question of what the “darkness” means. What more can I say before you enlighten us with you vast “wisdom” that you claim comes from above?
To which I must ask, where in the OT does it state the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind? Why won’t you answer that question?
ME: FIRST AND FOREMOST, PROPHECIES ARE NEVER SPECIFICALLY CLEAR WORD FOR WORD!
NOW, SINCE YOU REJECTED WHATEVER OTHERS HAVE SAID, WHAT’S THE USE OF WASTING OUR TIME REPEATING?
Also here is
1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,
which I also received:
how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures:
AND THIS IS MY QUESTION:
BY WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
@Gene
Obviously my understanding isn’t correct; so please fix it.
I have told you who is speaking where, now it’s your turn. Who is speaking in these places:
Isa 52:13-15 –
Isa 53:1-9 –
Isa 53:10-12 –
As you answer who’s speaking above, make sure you are including with your understanding what’s happening in 52:1-12?
Analyzing what you said and tell me if it makes sense. If Isaiah was speaking of his and Judah’s sins, then the sins the servant died for where only for Isaiah’s and Judah’s; how then do we as none Jews factor into this? Verse 1 asks “who will believe our report”; this “our” is Isaiah and Judah? What is this report that is so unbelievable? Since part of this “servant song” is in the previous chapter, who or what “startled many nations”…the sins of Isaiah and Judah? These other kingdoms cared why? Startled to the point they are speechless…the sins of Isaiah and Judah? These kings will see what they haven’t been told and understand what they haven’t heard? We haven’t begun matching up the pronouns…
No one has explained when Jesus offered his soul in restitution, what sin was he guilty of? He didn’t live long, he didn’t have any children, and the purpose of God prospered in his hands, how? Explain verse 11 and how that fits Jesus, knowledge justifies? What portion of the great were divided to Jesus and what did Jesus divide with the mighty, I thought he lived a lowly life?
Your second paragraph is the key to understanding what is being said; this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. You then say it’s incumbent of me to “prove” the suffering servant is Israel; I have already explained it and it’s written in the previous chapters who the servant is. So it’s not incumbent of me to prove anything, all you have to do is read.
@Danny
You copy/pasted someone else’s comments from a website that has been proven to push falsehoods. GotQuestions is horrible and the man running it is a charlatan.
So all you know is Ps 16, Ps 22, and Isa 53 as proof of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind; I have already explained each of these chapters and have shown how they could not be a reference to Jesus in any way, form, or fashion. Instead of parroting the words of someone else, use yours words and explain why these passages are a reference to Jesus.
Derailed Truth……Isaiah 53, does not have a single plural noun mentioned in it concerning the suffering servant, not one, all expressions there are in the ‘Singular ” Therefore it could not be Israel as a nation, or it would all be expressed in a “plural ” sense> your switching a singular expression of an individual “SOUL” TO the PLURAL SOUL’S of Israel, IS NOT INDICATED AT ALL IN ANY OF ISAIAH 53, IN REGARDS TO THE SUFFERING SERVANT, (singular), Not even one incident mentioned there, is a plural expression, not one. So to force the text to say it is speaking of a plurality of the nation of Israel is not right . IMO.
where do you see ISRAEL AS A SINGLE SUFFERING SERVANT at even in chapter 52, I can’t find that when reading it. Please explain to us I might be missing something but I can see it, so please spell it out for us Ok .
peace and love to you all and yours Desire Truth……….gene
Desire Truth Sorry, I meant to say a “Plural” expression of Israel as a single nation who is God’s “suffering” servant as mentioned in Isa 52. No where does it say Israel is or was God’s “suffering” servant in any scripture in the Old Testament. Israel suffered alright, but it was because of heir own sins, not for anyone else’s , this is confirmed over and over, every where in the Old Testament. IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene
@Gene
Now we resort to name calling…
If all you are going to do is reject without verifying, this becomes a waste of time and time for me is all too precious. If you are hung up on the plurality of the words, you really need to start reading in chapter 41 and you will discover how God speaks of HIS servant in the singular. I’m not “forcing” anything; I’m just reading.
You didn’t answer who you believe is speaking where in the “Servant Song.” I mentioned reading chapter 52 to put 53 into context, not to look for the “suffering servant.”
Hopefully you will read the below verses:
Isa 41:8 “But thou, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend; 9 Thou whom I have taken hold of from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the uttermost parts thereof, and said unto thee: ‘Thou art My servant, I have chosen thee and not cast thee away’” singular wording and the servant is Israel/Jacob
Isa 42:1 “Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon him, he shall make the right to go forth to the nations.” Still speaking in the singular of the “My servant” (note the “he” and “him”).
Isa 42:18 “Hear, ye deaf, and look, ye blind, that ye may see. 19 Who is blind, but My servant? Or deaf, as My messenger that I send? Who is blind as he that is wholehearted, and blind as HaShem’S servant?” Still speaking in the singular of “My servant” and will you claim this “servant” is Jesus too?
Isa 43:10 “Ye are My witnesses, saith HaShem, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no G-d formed, neither shall any be after Me. 11 I, even I, am HaShem; and beside Me there is no saviour.” God uses both the plural and singular to refer to whom HE has chosen. Who did God choose in Isa 41:8, Israel/Jacob.
Isa 44:1 “Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen; 2 Thus saith HaShem that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun (a poetic name for Israel), whom I have chosen.” Uh oh, God made a mistake and is now calling Jacob “My servant” and Israel his chosen or are Jacob and Israel one in the same!?
Isa 44:21 “Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for thou art My servant; I have formed thee, thou art Mine own servant; O Israel, thou shouldest not forget Me.”
Isa 45:4 “For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel Mine elect, I have called thee by thy name, I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known Me.”
Isa 49:1 “HaShem hath called me…3 And He said unto me: ‘Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’”
Are you seeing it yet?
GotQuestions is a very good website.
All you can do is to slander like your father the devil.
Anyway, you didn’t refute those Bible verses at all.
Nothing you said makes any sense.
It’s time to shake the dust off my feet and move on.@Danny
So what you are really saying is you can’t explain those chapters in your own words and rely on others to tell you what to believe. Now it makes sense!
@ desire Truth
He shall see of the labor of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;👉 for he shall bear their iniquities.👈.
[12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
👉because he hath poured out his soul unto death:👈 and he was numbered with the transgressors; 👉👉and he bare the sin of many,👈 and made intercession for the transgressors.👈
…..he bare the sin of many….
How can you say that Jacob/Israel Can “bare the sin of many” and “made intercession for the transgressors.”
when he is a sinerman and needs a savior?Even a restored “Israel”, how can it fulfill prophecy?
Desire Truth…….I agree with Berean, on this one, you do need to show us in what “WAY” has Israel died or suffered for “OUR” INIQUITIES and SINS, then, seeing you insist the nation of Israel was the one being addressed in chapter 53, right? You haven’t produced a single scripture that supports Israel “bearing anyone’s sins and iniquities, but their own sin and iniquities, much less anyone else’s, . All scriptures support this in the Old Testament , the nation of Israel paid the price of their own sins, not any one else’s. IMO
God is “NOT’, unjust, everyone pays for his own sin and iniquities, not someone else’s sins. The whole concept that someone else pay for your sins, is a LIE, we all pay for our own sins. Jesus was the only one who died without sin of his own. He was the one who “demonstrated” to us all, what is required by us all, to have a right relationship with God the Father .
The nation of Israel never demonstrated any right relationship with God, they were a rebellious nation, who rebelled against God and followed the God’s of the nations that surrounded them. And God also said, “the kingdom of Judah, was even more treacherous than the kingdom of Israel was. Jer 3:11.
peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene
@Gene
You aren’t listening to my words; nowhere have I implied Israel died for anyone’s sins. Go back to some previous posts and re-read. You and Berean are trying to merge two separate ideas – what I am reading in this passage and what you believe the passages states.
You still haven’t told me who you believe is speaking in the following verses:
Isa 52:13-15 –
Isa 53:1-9 –
Isa 53:10-12 –
Once we establish this we can continue the conversation as it is key to understanding what is really happening within this “song.”
No comment on who the “servant” is in the list of verses in my last post to you? Isa 53:11 God says “My righteous servant”…why did HE say his servant was “righteous” here?
@ desire Truth
He shall see of the labor of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;👉 for he shall bear their iniquities.👈.
[12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
👉because he hath poured out his soul unto death:👈 and he was numbered with the transgressors; 👉👉and he bare the sin of many,👈 and made intercession for the transgressors.👈
…..he bare the sin of many….
👉Who is the one in this verse who “bare the sin of many?👈
You don’t read the end of the book, you start at the beginning, and to understand this “ending” one must understand the “beginning.” All must be put into context. Who is speaking where in this “song”? Once we have this established we will move on.
Also, who is the “servant” spoken of starting in chapter 41? If you are unsure, please reread post #944007.
@Desire Truth
You
Also, who is the “servant” spoken of starting in chapter 41? If you are unsure, please reread post #944007.
Me
Undoubtedly it is Jacob that is in question… in post #944007. BUT JACOB IS NOT THE ONLY ONE TO BE CALLED MY SERVANT….
THERE IS ONE WHO IS ABOVE ALL SERVANTS, AND THIS WE SEE HIM MENTIONED IN ISAIAH 49
isa.49
[1] Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made 👉mention of my name.👈
[2] And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
[3] And said unto me, Thou art my servant, 👉O Israel👈, in whom I will be glorified.
[4] Then I said, I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
👇👇👇
[5] <span style=”color: #3366ff;”>And now, know the LORD that formed me (see v.1)from the womb TO BE HIS SERVANT,</span>
👇👇👇
👉<span style=”color: #ff0000;”>TO BRING JACOB AGAIN TO HIM,</span>👈
👆👆👆
Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
👇👇👇
6] And he said, It is a light thing that👉 thou shouldest be <span style=”color: #0000ff;”>MY SERVANT</span>
👉to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel:👈
👇👇👇
I will also give thee for👉 a light to the Gentiles, 👈that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.👈desire Truth, who is this servant in charge of “to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: AND to be a light to The gentils (Is.49:6)👈
Go away, Satan!
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