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I have an issue with the new testament IF what Paul wrote isn’t in the old testament. I still haven’t found where the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind or where the innocent are responsible for the guilt of another. This basic premise is what the entire new testament is about. IF neither of these basic ideas are stated within the old the veracity of the new becomes questionable. Still waiting for the actual verse that states these ideas as related to the Messiah.
Everyone keeps coming back to Isa 53 as proof, just as you did again, to claim Jesus is the Messiah; EXCEPT, when the passage is read completely and put into context, THERE IS NO JESUS! Everyone is cherry picking a phrase from verse 12 to make your belief work.
You intentionally left the “because” out of your quote, why? By removed that conjunction you created an isolated thought (don’t care about the ellipses), a thought read on its own that can now be separated from the rest of what is being conveyed; “because” he did, he will receive and what is to be received isn’t “heavenly” in nature.
The “he” in verse 12b is the same one being crushed and made ill in verse 10. It’s the same “he” who, if they make restitution, will receive a reward of seeing their children, having their days prolonged, and God’s purpose will prosper.
Isa 53 cannot be used as proof of prophesying of Jesus; not because I say so, because the words of scripture say so!
To All……Jesus did not die for anyone’s personal sin debt. We will die for our own sins, the idea Jesus paid our sin debt off is a lie, our death pays it . Just as scripture says, “the soul that sins it shall die”, all have sinned all die.,
But you would say , Jesus did not sin, so why did he die then? , many say he died to payoff my sin debt , “O” really, then why do people who believe and believed in him still die, if he paid of our sin debt? And wouldn’t that make God unjust to kill a non sinner, “for” our sins ?
So then in what “way or sense”, did he die for my sins, or the sins of the world? , it is in this sense he died for them, that he might demonstrate, “I say “demonstrate”, what is required by us all, to have a right relationship GOD THE FATHER. It requires “US”, ‘’in “Faith” to God The FATHER , to also put our own Will’s to death and do the Will of God, JUST AS JESUS, DEMONSTRATED TO US ALL.
The concept Jesus paid off your own sin debit is a “LIE”, we will pay for our own sins , that’s why we are told by Jesus to “REPENT”. if Jesus paid OFF our sins, tell me, what is there “REPENT” OF? , No, we are saved by GRACE and that not of ourselves it is a “GIFT” of “GOD”, THE FATHER. REPENTANCE IS ALSO A “GIFT” of GOD THE FATHER, AND IS A CREATIVE WORK “HE AND HE ALONE”, PERFORMS “IN” US, by HIS SPIRIT.
To All……Jesus did not die for anyone’s personal sin debt. We will die for our own sins, the idea Jesus paid our sin debt off is a lie, our death pays it . Just as scripture says, “the soul that sins it shall die”, all have sinned all die.,
But you would say , Jesus did not sin, so why did he die then? , many say he died to payoff my sin debt , “O” really, then why do people who believe and believed in him still die, if he paid of our sin debt? And wouldn’t that make God unjust to kill a non sinner, “for” our sins ?
So then in what “way or sense”, did he die for my sins, or the sins of the world? , it is in this sense he died for them, that he might demonstrate, “I say “demonstrate”, what is required by us all, to have a right relationship GOD THE FATHER. It requires “US”, ‘’in “Faith” to God The FATHER , to also put our own Will’s to death and do the Will of God, JUST AS JESUS, DEMONSTRATED TO US ALL.
The concept Jesus paid off your own sin debit is a “LIE”, we will pay for our own sins , that’s why we are told by Jesus to “REPENT”. if Jesus paid OFF our sins, tell me, what is there “REPENT” OF? , No, we are saved by GRACE and that not of ourselves it is a “GIFT” of “GOD”, THE FATHER. REPENTANCE IS ALSO A “GIFT” of GOD THE FATHER, AND IS A CREATIVE WORK “HE AND HE ALONE”, PERFORMS “IN” US, by HIS SPIRIT.
peace and love to you all and yours……..gene
You: Jesus did not die for anyone’s personal sin debt.
Me: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:3
@Danny,
There’s that pesky “according to scripture” statement from Paul. Now find it in the old testament!
Hi Desire Truth
You
There’s that pesky “according to scripture” statement from Paul. Now find it in the old testament!
Me
The authors of the new testament do not ALWAYS repeat WORD FOR WORD the verses of the old testament BUT THE ESSENTIAL IS SAID, and whoever is willing to hear understands what is said.
👇
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: 👉when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.God bless
Hi Berean
Me “JESUS WOULD BE IN YOU IN WHATEVER YOU EAT AND DRINK.
YOUR ETERNAL LIFE!”
You: Very dangerous what you say Carmel
Because it is a false teaching. Jesus is not in the food we eat.
You push things to their extreme and it becomes a heresy that can lead to pantheism: nature is God….God in nature…..nature is God….there’s only one step….
Watch out Carmel !
I never said what you are implying!
You left out the beginning of that statement!
I said:
BEFORE YOU EAT OR DRINK ANYTHING JUST SAY
THANK YOU JESUS!
FORGIVE ME JESUS!
Read what I said specifically precisely in the first statement in the same post:
Me: I don’t blame you Gene, but as I always say:
IT IS THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO GOD’S WORK!
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BREAD OR ANY OTHER FOOD,
BUT IT IS
JESUS’SPIRIT IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION, ALL IN HIM;
PRECISELY IN WHATEVER ONE EATS AS FOOD, ONCE ONE BELIEVES IN JESUS!
WHEN A PERSON BELIEVES, HE WILL NOT BE USING HIS FLESH BODY, SATANIC, BUT HE WILL BE USING HIS SOUL, THE INTELLECT, WHICH IS OF GOD!
AGAIN I SAID:
29Jesus answered, and said to them:
This is the work of God,
that you believe in him whom he hath sent.ONE ONLY HAS TO BELIEVE IN JESUS, AND ONCE HE BELIEVES IN JESUS,
HE EATS NORMAL FOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF JESUS WHICH IS IN THE FOOD ENDURES TO ETERNAL LIFE!
Berean THE SPIRIT OF JESUS, NOT GOD IS IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION!
WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT JESUS IS OUR MOTHER, TO BE PRECISE:
JESUS’SPIRIT IN CREATION IS MOTHER EARTH!
Galatians 4:26 But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free:
which is our mother.
Now the new Jerusalem is THE HUMAN BODY IN JESUS
THE SON OF MAN!
THE BRIDE!
John3:29 He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom:
JESUS IS THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND THE ENTIRE CREATION.
Colossians 1:16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him and in him. 17And he is before all,
and by him all things consist.
THE ABOVE IS DIRECTLY REFERRING TO JESUS’ SPIRIT “THE WORD” BUT EQUIVALENTLY IT ALSO REFERS TO JESUS HIMSELF, HE SUSTAINS ALL WITH HIS SPIRIT, AND HE RECONCILES THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL BY HIS SPIRIT TO THE FATHER!
YOUR SOUL Berean IS YOU!
NOW JESUS’SPIRIT IS
“THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING John1:1
Then I again made clear and said:
BEFORE JESUS REDEMPTION, SATAN WAS IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION, AND WITHIN ALL THE FOOD HUMANS USED TO EAT,
THEY ATE ALSO PRECISELY SATAN’S SPIRIT!
John 13:26 Jesus answered:
He it is to whom I shall reach bread dipped. And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27And after the morsel,
Satan entered into HIM.
And Jesus said to HIM: That which thou dost, do quickly.
Berean TO WHOM JESUS SPOKE?
TO SATAN NO? WHO ENTERED JUDAS’SOUL!
Now I want to add this:
WHY DID JESUS GIVE JUDAH THE MORSEL?
NOT JUST IN ORDER FOR THE APOSTLES TO KNOW WHO IS GOING TO BETRAY JESUS, NO FOR SURE!
SATAN WAS IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE WORLD, AND WHEN JESUS GAVE THE MORSEL, GAVE HIM SATAN AS WELL IN THE MORSEL!
THIS IS ALSO REPEATED ON THE CROSS WHEN JESUS SAID
I THIRST!
WHICH MEANS HE IS THIRSTY FOR JUSTICE, FOR THE TRUTH, AND ALSO
FOR SATAN, WHO WAS VERY HESITANT TO DO HIS NORMAL PROCEDURE WHICH WAS TO ENTER AND TAKE CRIMINAL SOULS TO HIS EMPIRE OF HELLFIRE. THUS JESUS SAID I THIRST IN ORDER TO GIVE HIM THE VINEGAR AND PRECISELY WITHIN THAT VINEGAR THERE WAS ALSO, WHETHER HE WANTED OR NOT,
SATAN!
Berean, SATAN DID ENTER JESUS, BUT HE NEVER LEFT JESUS’ DEAD BODY, “THE WORD” AT ALL!
HE REMAINED LOCKED IN JESUS’ DEAD BODY,
PRACTICALLY DEAD!
AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THOSE SOULS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS,
THEY SIMPLY REMAIN LOCKED IN THE DEAD BODY/BONES, AND ONLY BURNING FIRE WOULD RELEASE THEM!
ON THE OTHER HAND, JESUS’SOUL, IN THE HOLY GHOST, IN THAT SAME INSTANT
LEFT GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE WITH “THE WORD” JESUS’BODY
THE SON OF MAN, BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH THE ONLY
GODMAN John13:31,32 John17:1
JUST READ THIS EXAMPLE NOW GIVEN BY JESUS IN
Mark 11:12 And the next day when they came out from Bethania,
he was hungry.
HUNGRY FOR JUSTICE AND TRUTH NOT FOR FIGS TO EAT!
13And when he had seen afar off a fig tree having leaves, he came if perhaps he might find anything on it. And when he was come to it, he found nothing but leaves.
For it was not the time for figs.
AND JESUS KNEW ABOUT IT FOR SURE!
14And answering he said to it:
May no MAN hereafter eat fruit of thee anymore
FOREVER!
And his disciples heard it.
Berean, don’t tell me that you believe that
JESUS SPOKE TO THE TREE! HA, HA, HA,!
HE SPOKE TO SATAN WITHIN THAT TREE AS HE, SATAN, BELIEVED THAT HE AS A SPIRIT GIVES LIFE TO ALL THAT IS EVIL, AND WAS THE SOVEREIGN SPIRIT OF THIS EVIL WORLD THROUGH EVE’S SIN!
John7:7 The world cannot hate you;
but me it hateth:
because I give testimony of it,
that the works thereof are evil.
NOW, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE TREE?
OBVIOUS JESUS, TO BE CLEAR,
“THE WORD” JESUS’SPIRIT, SINCE ALL IN HIM ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM, THE LIFE OF BOTH ALL THE GOOD AND THE EVIL!
SIMPLY LEFT SATAN’S HEART,
You know what happened to the tree:
20And when they passed by in the morning they saw
the fig tree dried up from THE ROOTS.
FROM THE ROOTS, THUS SATAN ALSO DIED IN IT, AND NEVER LEFT THE TREE!
LET’S READ WHAT DID JESUS DO IN BETWEEN THIS INCIDENT!
Mark 11:15 And they came to Jerusalem. And when he was entered into the temple, he began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the chairs of them that sold doves. 16And he suffered not that any man should carry a vessel through the temple; 17And he taught, saying to them: Is it not written, My house shall be called the house of prayer to all nations?
But you have made it a den of THIEVES.
Berean, WHO ARE THE THIEVES JESUS MEANT TO BE?
THE DEMONS! NO?
JESUS SIMPLY ANTICIPATED AND MANIFESTED WHAT HE WOULD EVENTUALLY DO ON THE CROSS TO SATAN AND HIS DEMONS! Luke17:20-37
JESUS ERADICATED SATAN AND HIS DEMONS FROM THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD,
GOD’S KINGDOM CAME, GOD’S WILL WAS ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN! AT LEAST TILL PENTECOST!
AND FROM THEN ON “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN REESTABLISHED HIMSELF OFFICIALLY AS THE ONLY SOVEREIGN SPIRIT IN ALL SOULS AT ALL COSTS!
ONE LAST CURIOUS EVENT BY JESUS IN
John9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.6When he had said these things, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and spread the clay on his eyes,
7And said to him: Go, wash in the pool of Siloe, which is interpreted, Sent. He went therefore, and washed, and he came seeing.
JESUS COULD HAVE SAID JUST A FEW WORDS AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH! WHAT DID JESUS MAKE US AWARE OF?
Genesis 3:19 ……. for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.
The above words were said to Adam alright, BUT WITHIN ADAM’S FIRST-EVER SOUL WAS
SATAN AND THOSE WORDS FROM GOD WERE IN THE TRUTH DIRECTED BOTH TO JESUS AND TO SATAN NOT TO ADAM, AS ADAM IN THAT PRECISE MOMENT
WAS THE IMAGE OF GOD! IN THE SECOND ADAM,
JESUS!
HIDDEN BOTH IN ADAM’S SOUL AND IN SATAN!
Slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev.13:8
THUS, WITHIN THAT DUST THAT JESUS SPAT ON WAS SATAN,
WHEN JESUS SPAT ON THAT DUST, FIRST HE SIMPLY DESTROYED SATAN’S SPIRIT! THEN JESUS SENT HIM TO WASH HIS EYES FROM THE CLAY IN THE HOLY POOL OF SILOAM. OBVIOUS THAT CLAY WAS NOT SATANIC ANYMORE BUT HOLY AS THE POOL WAS WITH JESUS’SPIRIT!
Now read 1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, fly from the service of idols. 15 I speak as to wise men: judge ye yourselves what I say.
16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless,
is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break,
is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers WITH DEVILS.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Berean,
You: Hi Carmel
I do NOT believe wath You write. Sorrry, but This IS NOT biblicaly….
Me: UNLESS YOU SPECIFICALLY SHOW ME WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO, IT IS USELESS TO SAY SO!
I PRODUCED SCRIPTURES, AND YOU NEVER PRODUCED THE SAME SCRIPTURES AND CONTRADICTED ME WITH THEM.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
You are quoting Isa 53 AGAIN, I have shown it isn’t a reference to Jesus and canNOT be a reference to him.
“he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”
Jesus didn’t have children, his days where kind of short, how did the “pleasure of the Lord prosper in his hand”?
“by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many”
Jesus’ “knowledge” is what justifies?!?!!?
What portion did Jesus divide with the great, what spoil did Jesus divide the spoil with the strong? “because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
All you have to do is read and comprehend the words given by Isaiah.
Still a big NO on Jesus dying for the sins of mankind using Isa 53. Guess again!
Danny…….You have to understand, in “what “sense” , did he die, also you need to understand the word “for” can just as easily mean “because of”. Jesus died on the cross, i.e. tree, “Because of “. the sins of the world, He did not pay your sin debt off for you, you will pay for that by dying yourself. “The “SOUL” that sins “IT’ shall die”. What Jesus did for us , was to show us ” THE WAY’, OR how to have a right “relationship” , with God the Father, AND IT ‘S “EXACTLY” THE SAME AS HIS.
That is why scripture says this.
“But if the Spirit of hm that raised up Jesus from the “DEAD” dwell in you, He that raised Christ from the dead shall “also” quicken your “mortal” (dead) “BODIES” by His Spirit that dwells in you.”
That Spirit of God is given by God to all those he has chosen to be resurrected from the dead. “We all must be “born again” , by the Spirit of God the Father, just as Jesus was also.peace and love to you and yours Danny………..gene
Isaiah’s prophecy in Isaiah 53:4-5 is quoted directly by the Apostle Peter when talking about Jesus’ death on the cross.
Demonstrating that Jesus had fulfilled this Old Testament prophecy, Peter stated, “‘Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.’” (1 Peter 2:24).@Danny,
I’m starting feel like a broken record, who is speaking in Isa 53:1? The “our” in verse four is the same “our” in verse one; who is this “our”? What message was so unbelievable in verse one?
Hi Desiretruth,
You: I’m starting feel like a broken record, who is speaking in Isa 53:1?
The “our” in verse four is the same “our” in verse one;
who is this “our”?
Me: IT IS OF NO USE THAT YOU ASK QUESTIONS SINCE YOU ARE NOT READY FOR THE TRUTH!
What message was so unbelievable in verse one?
THERE YOU ARE!
ASK YOURSELF WHAT YOU DON’T BELIEVE!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Gene,
You: To All……
Jesus did not die for anyone’s personal sin debt.
FIRST AND FOREMOST WHAT KIND OF SINS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
THERE ARE SINS RELATED TO MOSES AND HIS COMMANDMENTS and
SINS RELATED TO JESUS AND HIS COMMANDMENTS!
Luke 12: 10 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but to him that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost,
it shall not be forgiven.
John5:39 Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting;
and the same are they that give testimony of me.
40And you will not come to me that you may have life.
41I receive glory not from men. 42But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in the name of my Father, and you receive me not:
if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. 44How can you believe, who
receive glory one from another:
Gene, JESUS IN THE ABOVE CLEARLY REFERS
TO HUMANS SPIRITUALLY DEAD/ SATANIC!
Now read what He said in relation to Himself!
and the glory which is from God ALONE,
you do not seek?
John 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE!
ATTENTION NOW PLEASE:
45Think not that I will accuse you to the Father.
There is one that accuseth you,
Moses, in whom you trust.
THE ABOVE IS A REFERENCE TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING REGARDING PARTICULAR SINS!
NOW JESUS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE PARTICULAR SINS! Gene!
ANSWER: WHY?
MOSES AND HIS TEN COMMANDMENTS WILL ACCUSE THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST MOSES AND HIS LAW!
NOW READ WHOM JESUS SHALL JUDGE:
John12:48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words,
hath
ONE that judgeth him;
WHO IS THIS “ONE” JESUS IS REFERRING TO?
HERE IT COMES:
THE WORD
that I have spoken,
the same shall judge him on the last day.
OK Gene,
WHO IS
THE WORD?????
THAT JUDGES WHO DENIES JESUS?
Gene, If one does not believe in Jesus and His Gospel, OR MORE PRECISE:
IF A SOUL DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS, IT MEANS THAT THIS PARTICULAR SOUL REJECTED JESUS AND
ON ITS LAST DAY ON EARTH, to be clear
ON ITS DEATH,
THE SOUL WOULD REMAIN LOCKED IN THE RESPECTIVE DEAD BODY/SKELETON, AND THE ONLY WAY OUT IS
BY FIRE!
Matthew 13:40 Even as cockle therefore is gathered up, and burnt with fire:
so shall it be at the end of the world.
41The Son of man shall send his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity.
42 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
You: We will die for our own sins,
the idea Jesus paid our sin debt off is a lie, our death pays it.
SCRIPTURE:
1 John3:5 And you know that he APPEARED
TO TAKE AWAY OUR SINS, and in him there is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not; and whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, nor known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just.
8He that commmitteth sin is of the devil:
for the devil sinneth from the beginning.For this purpose, the Son of God APPEARED,
that he might DESTROY the works of the devil.In the above scripture, Jesus,
THE SON OF MAN!
APPEARED, PRE-EXISTED and
HE TOOK AWAY OUR SINS!
NOW ANSWER PLEASE:
HOW DID JESUS FREE US FROM OUR SINS?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Are you unable to answer those questions yourself? Take your “spiritual” goggles off, read the text before you, and tell me what is being said. Interpret the chapter in your own words.
Funny how you say I am not ready for the truth; however, when the plain truth is presented, you reject it (who’s not ready?!?!). Reading Isa 53, placing it into the context it was written, is all anyone has to do see there is zero reference to Jesus. You don’t have to be “spiritual” to understand the written words of God.
What exactly don’t I believe? The lies of man? Please enlighten! What I can’t believe is all the “hate” directed at me because I don’t see Jesus in Isa 53 from supposed “christian” people.
DesireTruth………who do you think the “our” there in 53 represents, I believe the our is a all inclusive word, meaning the prophet Isaiah and the people of Israel, and could even represent the whole world. Kinda of like wen Jesus said pray in this way…….“Our” father, who art in heaven”. Again that’s an all inclusive statement, meaning Jesus and us also.
What is your understanding of that word “our” mentioned there? And how does it alter you perception of it not referencing Jesus ? And who do you think it is referencing? No put down here, just would like to know who do you think it’s speaking about brother.
peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene
Apostle Peter talking about Jesus: “…by whose stripes ye were healed.” 1 Peter 2:24
Prophet Isaiah: “…and with his stripes we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5Do you agree with Apostle Peter that Jesus Christ was that Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53?
Remember Peter was a Jew. He knew the Old Testament better than your Orthodox Jews.
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