JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Berean]

Gene

Jesus never spoke the language of wood…
When he says, “Before Abraham was, I am.”

IT MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT MEANS: JESUS AS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM….

AND EVEN IN JOHN 17….

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

YAHSHUA said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

🙏

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,
You respond with NO! If we don’t need Jesus, what is the point of christianity?
Explain John 3:16; sounds to me with Jesus – heaven (eternal life), without – hell (perish).
Are you intentionally being obstinate? There is a point to my question, just answer it!

[Berean]

@dedire Truth

Your last remodeled question was in your penultimate post the following:

For brevity sake let me help you along;👉 is it safe to say, with Jesus you go to heaven and without Jesus you go to hell?👈

I answered NO

AND I GAVE BIBLICAL REASONS.
IN Romans IN PARTICULAR.

HAVE YOU READ THE VERSES?

1) All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law,
2) and all who have sinned with the law will be judged by the law.

3) When the pagans, who have no law, naturally do what the law prescribes, they who have no law are a law unto themselves;

they show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, …..

It is God’s purpose, to write his law in hearts.

And so Gentiles with the law of God written in their hearts will not go to hell. That’s what I understand.

🙏

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

YOU: It is God’s purpose, to write his law in hearts. And so Gentiles with the law of God written in their hearts will not go to hell.

ME: If the law is written on our hearts and we will be judge accordingly, our salvation (either children of God or condemned) is hinged on how we uphold the law?!? If that’s the case, there is no point in having Jesus as our Messiah and the entire model of christianity is pointless.

Except the law doesn’t save, the law only points out our sin.

[Proclaimer]

Proclaimer…….Jesus was simply telling he was more “important” them Abraham to them,

Not so. Read these words slowly. You can see the Pharisees clearly understood him to mean that he was older than Abraham and Jesus didn’t deny it. He affirmed it by saying “Before Abraham, I am”. Your teaching is “before Abraham, I wasn’t”. Once again, a complete opposite understanding. Are you operating in the opposite spirit? Because the fruit of your teaching is to take the opposite of many words spoken by Jesus Christ and the apostles. I think you should be concerned about this @genebalthrop. What is the opposite spirit to the one that Christ was operating under?

57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

[Proclaimer]

Now find the preexisting Jesus in the old testament…GO!

Jesus Christ and his mission many other truths were hidden in Old Testament times. God’s plan was not fully revealed in the Old Testament.

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

That said, we clearly have this for those who can discern with the Spirit of Truth.

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

A carnal man will ignore that which is obvious to a spiritual man.

[carmel]

Hi Proclaimer,

You:A carnal man will ignore that which is obvious to a spiritual man.

AMEN!

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

[GeneBalthrop]

Proclaimer……Who here is denying Isaiah 53,  was not speaking about Jesus in prophesy.?
but tell us what is met in verse 8,  …..who in “HIS GENERATION” protested.

That term “in his generation”. Should tell you his generation was not at the time of that prophesy, “why” ?, because he did not then exist as a live being. The whole thing is a “prophesy” about a future event.  You can not use that to try to prove that Jesus was alive at the time that prophesy was given.  How come you can’t “spiritually “see that?

peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

To all…….There is no proof of a “preexisting ” Jesus in any of our Old Testament scriptures at all, no one can produce a single scripture showing “ANY” activity of him being alive before his birth on this earth at all> the only thing they do is force texts to say what in fact it does not, by adding their own thoughts to the actual writings.  Jesus only existed in the plan and Will of GOD the Father, from the beginning of GOD’S creation of this earth and everything in it,  he did not live before his birth on this earth as a “root and offspring” of king David,  just as scripture and Jesus himself says.

All teachings of a preexisting Jesus are simply put, a “LIE”,  in fact it is the biggest lie ever fostered on Christianity by Satan himself  and his ministers. IMO

Peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

[Berean]

Gene

“the only thing they do is force texts to say what in fact it does not, by adding their own thoughts to the actual writings.”

Colossians 1 KJB

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is 👉before all things,👈 and by him all things consist. 

🙏

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Isa 53 being about Jesus is completely false! So using this chapter as your “proof” produces a big, fat zero and is thrown out as evidence to your claim. You have ignored the preceding chapters and are cherry picking a couple verses from 53 to “prove” you found Jesus in the old testament because it sounds like Jesus in the new and thus remain under the spell of false religion, because it was religion who told you “Jesus” is being spoken of in Isa 53. Again, start in chapter 41 and read thru to 55 and place 53 in the context of what Isaiah wrote. This is not that hard!

“5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;”

Who is this “our” in verse 5? You, me, mankind? EXCEPT verse 5 is the continued thought from verse 1 and “Who has believed our message”? This “our” is whom? Did you, me, or mankind bring some message and to whom did we give it? What was this message? What a perplexing mystery!

If Jesus is in Isa 53 you MUST take the entire chapter into consideration and explain the words of verse 10. How exactly did Jesus “see his offspring”, as far a I know Jesus didn’t have any kids. Explain exactly how Jesus’ days where “prolonged”, according to the gospels Jesus hung on a cross and died. If he Jesus is dead, how can the will of God “prosper in his hand”?

Now let’s jump to verse 11; “by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many.” Jesus’ knowledge will justify many?!!?!? No kidding! For the last 30+ years the church has been telling me it was Jesus’ blood that justified me. Someone is a liar!

Tell me in verse 12 of the spoils (plunder/booty) Jesus divided with the strong?

Funny when reading the entire chapter your Jesus narrative starts to fall apart! BUT, I’m the one who is “carnal”. The reality is, I know how to read and comprehend AND apply the words in the context they have been written. I prefer to look at what God said verses what delusional man interprets.

You also quote a passage from Paul (have a huge issue with him), who stated “according to scripture” “Christ died for our sins” “that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day”. If that’s according to scripture, it’s in the old testament, not buried between the line or verses taken out of context, but explicitly written. I haven’t seen those passages yet, nor has anyone produced them from the old testament. If this doesn’t pose an issue with you, it’s not the spirit of truth that is in you; it’s the spirit of religion that has consumed you and is your god.

Are you still slumbering?

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

I would love to hear an explanation from you concerning Col 1:16,17…but I won’t hold my breath.

How about a response to the law being written on the Gentile heart and not going to hell. Is that what you understand and believe because it’s scripturally sound or you believe it because this is what you were told? Your statement doesn’t answer the question of with/without Jesus and where you go.

If Jesus preexisted it would be all over the old testament, why would the Almighty hide his begotten son. I forgot, “God’s plan was not fully revealed in the Old Testament” (nice catch phrase when you can’t explain something). Is this because God’s chosen people were to ignorant to understand what HE told them and today we are superior to God’s chosen because we have “Jesus”? Careful where you go with that one…

[Danny Dabbs]

@desiretruth

Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

[Berean]

@ desire Truth

Don’t worry, I’ll answer you as soon as I have the time .

[Proclaimer]

Proclaimer……Who here is denying Isaiah 53,  was not speaking about Jesus in prophesy.?

Answer: Desiretruth is.

There is no proof of a “preexisting ” Jesus in any of our Old Testament scriptures at all, no one can produce a single scripture showing “ANY” activity of him being alive before his birth on this earth at all

Jesus is not mentioned by name in the Old Testament. But the New Testament tells us he was the Word that was with God in the beginning. That all things were made through him and for him as the Word and Son of God. If you do not believe that he is both the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn from the dead as being  another attribute, then you do not really believe in the New Testament, so you might as well just be straight up with us.

That said, the Old Testament talks of the Angel of the Lord and many suspect that is Jesus. There are some good reasons for this, but regardless, the revelation of Jesus Christ is primarily the New Testament and you either believe it or not. I believe what the New Testament says about Jesus is true. It appears that you guys do not believe the New Testament which is part of God’s plan and is a greater revelation or further revelation.

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

YOU: “Jesus is not mentioned by name in the Old Testament.”

ME: THANK YOU!! Yet somehow he will be found in its writings by modern day “scholars.” And you don’t question this?!?!?

The “word that was with God in the beginning”; BUT what does “word/logos” mean? For you, by the use of circular reasoning, means Jesus. What it really means “to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.” However that doesn’t fit in your churchy definition and thus rejected. Even though Heraclitus coined and defined the term, yours is superior, because “God’s plan was not fully revealed in the old testament.”

Believing if Jesus is the first born of anything isn’t relevant to anything concerning whether or not I “believe in the new testament.” Since when did that become a qualification to determine the veracity of the new testament?

“Angel of the Lord”, “many suspect it’s Jesus”…so there is no evidence to make such a claim, but we’re going to anyways. Sounds a bit suspicious to me. What does “angel” mean? Glad you asked; it simply means “messenger.” So a “messenger of the Lord” conducted business on behalf of God and you equate this angel with Jesus. Stunning!!

You believe what the new testament says about Jesus is truth; that is fantastic, you are free to believe what you want and I won’t stop you. I do NOT take anything at face value anymore and will verify what I am being told. I no longer have an “I Believe Button” I smash when told something. Have you verified anything I have said? My guess, NOPE! You will just continue to double down on your religion, rejecting anything that goes against it, which sadly is typical.

By the way, the fact you offered no response to what I said about Isa 53 speaks volumes. Hopefully it will trigger you to investigate, but I won’t hold my breath.

[DesireTruth]

@Danny,

Tell me why you became a “christian”? What was said that “opened” your eyes? Was it the possibility of not going to heaven?

[carmel]

Hi Gene,

You: Carmel……Jesus saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, is a “METAPHOR”  for the words simply meaning we must take his life to ourselves,

and become exactly like him

Me: First and foremost!

JESUS WAS MORE THAN CERTAIN THAT HUMANS NEVER BE IN A POSITION TO BECOME LIKE HIM!

THE FACT THAT HE EMPTIED HIMSELF AND BECAME IN ALL THINGS LIKE US.

THE ONLY WAY TO RETURN BACK TO THE FATHER!

I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE  No man cometh to the Father,

but by me.

You: Jesus saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, is a “METAPHOR”

YES, YOUR PERCEPTIONS ARE ALWAYS  A ONE WAY ROAD, TO DISCREDIT  JESUS’DIVINE HUMAN PROCESS,

SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

PRECISELY FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH AND GOD’S LOVE FOR US,  DESPITE  SATANIC ON EVE’S SIN; THE MOTHER OF ALL THE LIVING IN THE MORTAL FLESH AND BLOOD!

FROM THEN ON HUMANITY BECAME DESPERATE AND IN NEED OF A NEW HEART OF FLESH, DEFINITELY NOT OF THIS PLANET, AS FROM CAIN’S CONCEPTION, SATAN’S FIRSTBORN, IN WHOM JESUS AS A LAMB WAS SLAIN….Rev.13:8

THEY RECEIVED A HEART OF STONE!

Ezekiel 36:26And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh.

PRECISELY JESUS, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN, THE ENGRAFTED WORD, AND ETERNAL LIFE WITHIN THE HUMAN HEART, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD IN ADAM!

The fact that it is “ENGRAFTED”

James 1:21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ENGRAFTED word, which is able to save your souls.

You: for the words simply meaning we must take his life to ourselves,

and become exactly like him

Gene, Read the scripture hereunder, and stick to it throughout, not only where it pleases your carnal-minded understandings!

Ephesians 2:1And you,

 when you were DEAD in your offences, and sins,

2Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world,

according to the prince of the power of this air,

of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief:3In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts,

and were by NATURE children of WRATH, even as the rest:

ME: CHILDREN OF SATAN!

4But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,

 5Even when we were dead in sins,

hath quickened us TOGETHER IN CHRIST,

(by whose grace you are saved,) 

6And hath raised us up together,

Me: GOT IT Gene?

THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WAS RECREATED ANEW, BORN ANEW,

ALL AUTHENTIC IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’BODY

THE SON OF MAN:

ON HIS RESURRECTION!

THE FATHER’S SUBSTANCE, Hebrews 1:3

by which SUBSTANCE THE FATHER BECAME OUR SAVIOR! Genesis 22:8

THUS:

JESUS, THE FATHER’S GIFT and

THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, Satan’s curse

BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE IN JESUS’ GLORIFIED  BODY,

GIVEN TO US BY THE FATHER’S IMMENSE CHARITY, ON HIS RESURRECTION FOR OUR SAKE ALL IN ONE SAME UNIQUE IMMORTAL BLOOD,

WITH A NEW HEART OF FLESH,

 OF THE FATHER’S SPIRIT. Well asserted in the last supper:

Luke 22:19 And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying:

This is my body, WHICH IS GIVEN FOR YOU.

Do this for a commemoration of me.

JESUS’ BODY WAS GIVEN TO JESUS BY THE FATHER, Hebrews10:5, NOT FOR HIM AS SUCH, HE WAS ALREADY IN FULL GLORY WITH THE FATHER John17:5, BUT FOR US, IN ORDER TO BECOME ONE SUBSTANCE IN/WITH CHRIST,

CHILDREN OF GOD IN CHRIST!

Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also;

heirs indeed of God,

and JOINT heirs with Christ:

yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

WHERE RIGHT NOW WE ARE AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD IN CHRIST’S BODY.

THIS OCCURRED NOT ON HIS RESURRECTION AS SUCH, AS ON HIS RESURRECTION WE WERE ALL AUTHENTIC BRETHREN, BUT THAT SAME EVENING WHEN THE HOLY GHOST IN THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST

GODMAN ON THE CROSS Johnn13:31,32, John17:2 and

JESUS’RSURRECTED BODY THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL IN JESUS,

THE SON OF MAN!

INTEGRATED AND BECAME 

ONE GLORIFIED FLESH AND BLOOD DIVINE BODY IN

JESUS CHRIST!

I REPEAT:

IN ONE SAME BLOOD AND ONE SAME GOD AND FATHER OF TH HUMAN RACE!

John17:11 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.

Now let’s go back to Ephesians 2

and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places,

through Christ Jesus.

7That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus.

 8For by grace you are saved through faith,

and that not of yourselves,

for it is THE GIFT OF GOD;

9Not of works, that no man may glory. 

10For we are his workmanship,

HIS MASTERPIECE!

created in Christ Jesus in good works,

which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

You: Carmel……Jesus saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, is a “METAPHOR”

ME: WE WILL TACKLE THE ABOVE IN THE NEXT POST!

IN THE MEANTIME:

SIT DOWN CALM DOWN AND CHEW!

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

[Proclaimer]

@desiretruth

PROCLAIMER: “Jesus is not mentioned by name in the Old Testament.”

DESIRETRUTH: THANK YOU!! Yet somehow he will be found in its writings by modern day “scholars.” And you don’t question this?!?!?

Thanks for what exactly? No one on planet earth believes that the name of Jesus is in the Old Testament. Jesus was not revealed to the world in the time the Old Testament was written. The point you are trying to make here is a big fat nothingburger.

[Proclaimer]

@desiretruth

Who is this “our” in verse 5? You, me, mankind? EXCEPT verse 5 is the continued thought from verse 1 and “Who has believed our message”? This “our” is whom? Did you, me, or mankind bring some message and to whom did we give it? What was this message? What a perplexing mystery!

Let’s start in verse Isaiah 53 verse 4.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Mathew writes that Jesus fulfilled this:

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,  Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Isaiah verse 5 says:

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

I think Peter can answer this for you in his letter (Chapter 2).

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Verse 25 is interesting. It seems to be talking about either mankind or Israel.

So Isaiah 53 verse 1 could be talking about the unbelief of Israel regarding the servant which is basically a narrative in the New Testament. So it could be referring to the messengers of God and Christ or those who preach that Jesus is the Christ of whom Israel basically rejects. Further, because the message is to go to all the earth, it is also rejected by many others, but seems to have found a home with many Gentiles as is also written.

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

[Author]

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