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In one post you said, “If I believe that he existed in the form of God (divine nature) then emptying himself, and coming in the flesh then living as a baby like us and growing and learning like us into an adult, then how is it exactly that I separate him from humanity. I don’t. So please move on to other points that may be outstanding.”
In another post you said, “However, being just a man who was created and started his existence some 2000 years ago is also wrong.”
These two don’t align and it is what Gene and I have had a problem with for so many years now.
Yes it seems you do have a problem with Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.
You have a problem with the Word becoming flesh.
You have a problem with God created all things through The Word that was WITH God.
You have a problem with God creating the all things through Jesus Christ.
You have a problem with his name being ‘The Word of God’.
Yes indeed you have a problem. I agree.
These two don’t align and it is what Gene and I have had a problem with for so many years now.
Let’s me analyse it for you then.
- He existed in the form of God.
- He emptied himself.
- He was born human and grew to adulthood.
- He died.
- He rose from the grave.
- He was taken up.
- He is with God in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.
- We who follow him will be taken up too.
- We will have a body like his.
- So to recap. He become one of us so we could be one of him. Sons of God.
This easy 10 step process has zero contradictions and is 100% scriptural.
Thank you. I am sure you can see that now that it has been laid out for you so simply.
@ desire Truth you
You
You reject the idea that the God of the universe would dare to speak to his celestial creation….
me
not at all, but why would God speak to angels when He created man? How are they directly involved in this?
You
….and affirm by speaking to them that HE was seeking their advice on how to create man. Nowhere in these verses does it say this is you. This is twisted and polluted thinking!
Me
I NEVER SUGGESTED THIS.
ON THE CONTRARY, I SAID THAT THE ANGELS HAVE NOTHING TO SEE FOR THE CREATION OF MAN, SINCE I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS TO THEM THAT GOD ADDRESSES.REALLY, YOU LEND ME BAD THOUGHTS, IT’S NOT WORTHY OF A CHILD OF GOD.
@ Proclaimer,
#10 doesn’t make sense, Jesus was in heaven at creation as God’s son, came to earth and became a man, only to return to heaven as the son again? Please clarify.
Proclaimer…….where scripture say all thing was made for him, it is referencing to the fact he was a human being, why? Because scripture shows us this, Need proof? Here it is , scripture says this (not me)……Heb 2:6-13……but one in a certain place testified, saying, what is man (mankind) that you are mindful of him (mankind)? Or the son of man, that you visit him (mankind), You made him (mankind) a little lower then the angels; you crown him (mankind) with glory and honor, and did set him (mankind) over the works of your (singular) hands. You have put all things in subjection under his (mankind’s) feet. For in that he (God) put all in subjection under him (mankind) he left “NOTHING”, that is not put under him (mankind). But now we see “NOT YET”, all things put under him (mankind as a whole) .
read the rest also.All of that has to do with mankind in a general sense, and that also includes Jesus Christ, as a son of mankind, the first to receive that inheritance, with many more to follow, we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ, because Jesus is and always was a human being, who came into being from his earthly roots. “I am the root an offspring of DAVID”
QUESTION IS DO YOU TRLY BELIEVE WHAT Jesus and scripture says.
Gene
You
“because Jesus is and always was a human being, who came into being from his earthly roots. “I am the root an offspring of DAVID”
Me
You are polarized on a few verses that speak of his humanity BUT YOU SET AWAY the verses that speak of his pre-existence and divinity. You do not realize that this harms you for the understanding of the rest of the scriptures.
Such a waste…Hi Proclaimer,
YOU:
Yes it seems you do have a problem with Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.
You have a problem with the Word becoming flesh.
ME:
Jesus Christ most certainly came in the flesh because Jesus was born a human being of flesh and when he was anointed of the Spirit and sent out into the world he remained a human being of flesh.
Jesus is the NAME given to a human being who said, ” The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me “. We know that he was quoting the prophet Isaiah concerning himself, where Isaiah spoke God’s WORD extensively about a coming anointed man of the son of Jesse and of the house of David and that WORD became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth.
The Word of YHVH that was spoken by the prophets most certainly became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth.
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is THE WORD of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that THE PROMISE which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Proclaimer, you say that Jesus pre-existed as “The Word” and in the form of God but then he emptied himself becoming a human baby and this represents John 1:14 where the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
Here are some Yes or No questions for you,
Is the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth the fulfillment of YHVH’s WORD when he received the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of YHVH?
Is the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth the fulfillment of YHVHs’ WORD where he was called to righteousness to fulfill YHVH’s covenant and be for a light, a GLORY that YHVH promised to no other?
The LIGHT that John speaks of prior to verse 14, is that the LIGHT of YHVH’s WORD from Isaiah 42?
Did the people behold the glory of Jesus as he spoke God’s word of TRUTH and performed miracles through having been FILLED with YHVH’s Spirit without measure?
Is the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth the fulfillment of YHVH’s WORD when he was crucified bringing forth grace and salvation?
When Nathanael in John 1 verse 49 said, “thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel”, was he speaking through his knowledge of YHVH’s promise to make a son of David into His own Son and promised also to make him into an eternal king?
Is Jesus the ONLY mortal man to have the Spirit of YHVH come to abode in him and remain in him without measure? Was Jesus thus led by the Spirit of YHVH in all his ways and therefore would be considered a Son of YHVH in that manner?
Hi Jodi,
You: Here are some Yes or No questions for you,
Is the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth the fulfillment of YHVH’s WORD
when he received the Spirit of Wisdom,
Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of YHVH?
Me: Hereunder are sufficient scriptures as answers to all your questions!
Me: Luke 2:48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49And he said to them:
How is it that you sought me? did you not know,
that I must be about my father’s business?
Jodi this time you have to answer THIS:
HOW JESUS A MERE CHILD OF TWELVE BECAME AWARE
THAT GOD IS HIS FATHER?
HE EVEN ANTICIPATED GOD AT THE RIVER JORDAN! NO?
You: When Nathanael in John 1 verse 49 said, “thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel”, was he speaking through his knowledge of YHVH’s promise to make a son of David into His own Son and
promised also to make him into an eternal king?
Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep : 21For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. 22And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But every one in his own order: the firstfruits Christ, then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming.
24Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue.
25For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith, 27All things are put under him;
undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.
You:….was he speaking through his knowledge of YHVH’s promise to make a son of David into His own Son and
promised also to make him into an eternal king?
Explain Jodi,
HOW GOD THE FATHER MAY BE ALL IN ALL AND NOT SUBJECT TO THE SON, AND
THE SON IS THE ETERNAL KING!
IT’S EITHER THE FATHER OR THE SON! NO?
YES, I ALMOST FORGOT!
John10:30 I and the Father are one.
You: Is Jesus the ONLY mortal man to have the Spirit of YHVH come to abode in him and remain in him without measure? Was Jesus thus led by the Spirit of YHVH in all his ways and therefore would be considered a Son of YHVH in that manner?
John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself,
so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:
Jodi, HAVE YOU GOT LIFE IN YOURSELF AS A MORTAL HUMAN BEING, BY ANY CHANCE ?
YES OR NO PLEASE.
John 10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life,
that I may take it again.
HERE’S ANOTHER ONE Jodi,
CAN YOU TAKE YOUR LIFE AGAIN AFTER YOU COMMIT A SUICIDE?
18No man taketh it away from me:
THE ABOVE IS DEFINITELY ENIGMATIC FOR A MORTAL MAN LIKE YOU,
HOW COME ACCORDING TO JESUS, A MORTAL MAN,
NO MAN TAKES HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM,
but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down:
and I have power to take it up again.
This commandment have I received of my Father.
THIS ONE IS RATHER ODD!
JESUS, AS YOU SAID, A MORTAL MAN, HAD A PARTICULAR POWER JUST TO DIE.
A MORTAL HUMAN BEING LIKE YOU AND ME Jodi, DON’T REQUIRE A PARTICULAR POWER TO DIE,
WE SIMPLY WHETHER WE WANT IT OR NOT HAVE GOT TO DIE!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
@ Berean,
Please refer to the following #post-942940 and read again and focus on the meat of what I said. The “us/our” of Gen 1:26; theologians “universally admitted” Jesus wasn’t the plural to whom God was speaking to. So who would be left for God to speak with? The heavenly body? Are you going to disregard the Jewish understanding and the theological minds of today in favor of what you believe? What I don’t understand is why this understanding hasn’t been relayed to the rest of the “christian” world. Could it possibly be because other long held Nicean based doctrine would also have to be addressed?
What “bad thought” am I creating in you?
Did Jesus ever say he was the “word” or “the word”?
Please provide scriptural examples.
Yes, according to the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show us via his angel, this was revealed to those who have ears to hear.
He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.…
So this came directly from God who showed it to Jesus Christ and it was sent via an angel to us. That I would say is a pretty strong endorsement.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Further, when you compare the attributes of the Word of God and the Son of God, you can see that they were both WITH God in the beginning and that God created all things through both the Word of God and Son of God and for them. I say them, but they are one and the same as Jesus Christ is known as Jesus because that is his name. His other name is the Word of God, thus he is also the Word of God.
What does it mean Christ existed in the form of God?
“Then the LORD God formed man.”
Man is a person, but importantly, is a nature.
(The) Adam is the person, and adam in Hebrew is man as in mankind.
So if Christ Jesus existed in the form of God, then that likely is talking about divine nature or the form of God which could arguably be spirit. I see it as meaning he existed with divine nature, but not as the person of God himself.
Similarly, Eve is adam / man, but she is not The Man / Adam. To equate this to this debate: Jesus Christ was divine but not God.
So existing in the form of God has nothing to do with actually being God himself, but everything to do with form / nature instead. We read in John 1:1c that the Word was theos, not the Word was The Theos. Translators are aware that this has a qualitative meaning as opposed to identifying the Word as God himself, thus some translations say: The Word was divine. So why do other translations say that the Word was God himself? Because they incorrectly believe that being divine makes you God. They forget that we too can inherit divine nature which only makes us sons, not God.
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Sons partake of God’s own nature. The Son existed with this nature, then emptied himself, partook of human nature, humbled himself, obeyed God, died, rose again, was taken up, and his now with the Father is the glory he had with him before the cosmos.
But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.
So it seems that we will be resurrected in our bodies, but the nature of our body will change from physical to spiritual.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.…
Hi Proclaimer,
YOU:
You have a problem with God created all things through The Word that was WITH God.
You have a problem with God creating the all things through Jesus Christ.
You have a problem with his name being ‘The Word of God’.
ME:
Your statements are totally false on what I have a problem with and you should know this by now.
The problem is with how you define “The Word”.
The problem is with how you define the word “through”.
I do not have a problem with Jesus being given a name that is called the word of God, such fits in perfectly with the surrounding text where Revelation 19 tells us the name written is King of kings and Lord of lords and shows us directly how this name is indeed of God’s word referencing the prophets regarding a man who is king and lord overall.
Proclaimer…….where scripture say all thing was made for him, it is referencing to the fact he was a human being, why? Because scripture shows us this, Need proof? Here it is , scripture says this (not me)……Heb 2:6-13……but one in a certain place testified, saying, what is man (mankind) that you are mindful of him (mankind)? Or the son of man, that you visit him (mankind), You made him (mankind) a little lower then the angels; you crown him (mankind) with glory and honor, and did set him (mankind) over the works of your (singular) hands. You have put all things in subjection under his (mankind’s) feet. For in that he (God) put all in subjection under him (mankind) he left “NOTHING”, that is not put under him (mankind). But now we see “NOT YET”, all things put under him (mankind as a whole) .
This is easy to explain. God gave man dominion on the earth. Man lost that dominion. God sent the one who existed in the form of God to be born as a man (come in the flesh). He emptied himself and then came in the flesh. So no chance of a dual nature here as Trinitarians claim. He came as a man. He lived as a man from a baby. He died as a man. He is now back in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos in his glorified body. Further, we who follow him will have a body like his.
Simple! Just read all the text as it is stated and this is the conclusion.
I do not have a problem with Jesus being given a name that is called the word of God,
Nice little change in detail right there. Did you not think I would notice that?
In English we capitalize when the definite article is preceding and this is important.
If we didn’t respect that, then ‘The God’ in scripture could be ‘god’ or even ‘a god’ to give it sense in English.
So his name is the ‘Word of God’, not ‘word of God’.
Revelation 19 tells us the name written is King of kings and Lord of lords and shows us directly how this name is indeed of God’s word referencing the prophets regarding a man who is king and lord overall.
There is a difference.
- HIS name is the Word of God.
- On HIS robe and on his thigh he has THIS name written: king of kings and lord of lords.
I like football (soccer), so I will explain it like this for you and reference both soccer and NFL. On a football shirt you typically have the name of the entity you are representing. For example, it might say ‘Barcelona’ or ‘Patriots’. But you also have the name of the player on the shirt such as Messi or Brady.
There is a difference because one is your own name and the other is who you are representing.
I think this should clear that point up for you.
Hi All,
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Divine Nature is not about what kind of “being” you are. The idea of existing as a human being and becoming some sort of a spirit being and by such we become of God’s divine nature is not of scripture. Partaking of the divine nature is about God’s Spirit dwelling in you, it’s about drinking of the one cup that Jesus drinks of, the One Spirit to the cause that we walk in all of God’s ways living in righteousness.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 5:For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Mathew 13:41 The Son of man (anthropos HUMAN BEING) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man (anthropos HUMAN BEING) shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Jesus is still a human being as he sits at God’s right hand and when he comes to earth he is still a human being.
Jesus himself when he was raised from the dead received the PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT and it is by that Spirit where it’s fruit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth, does he exist in God’s image, he is of God’s divine nature, he is heavenly, he is of a Spiritual mind not of a carnal mind.
Isaiah 11 is prophecy not completed and therein we have a human being who has God’s Spirit upon him being directed by God in all his ways to fulfill God’s will, destroying the wicked and rewarding believers with the inheritance of the promised Spirit and of eternal life.
If you read passages that don’t hold God’s word true that He promises to give us a new heart of flesh and give us of His Spirit to then walk in all His ways, or don’t hold God’s word true that a human with God’s Spirit upon him is returning to be our king overall the earth, then you are most certainly interpreting those passages all wrong.
Proclaimer,
I don’t see how our analogy applies here honestly.
I see that you keep missing something, twice now you have said, “his name is the Word of God”.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is CALLED The Word of God.
Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
To me, verse 13 is speaking further about the name of verse 12, one name is being spoken of and no man knew that name but himself and that same name is called the word of God.
Then we are directly give God’s word spoken by the prophet Isaiah that has everything to do with the name that is written.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
The same name is being spoken of in verses 12, 13, and 16, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS and this one name is being directly shown to rightfully be called the word of God as we are being given the word of God that applies to the very reason why he has been given this name.
YES or NO
Verses 11 and 15 are of the word of God spoken by the prophet Isaiah and they speak of a man being of the highest authority?
The name KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS aligns perfectly with the word of God spoken by Isaiah as well as many other prophets as that word speaks of a coming king and ruler having authority overall the earth?
The answers to both are YES and thus it is also true that his name, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, can rightfully be called the word of God.
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