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@ desire Truth
You may disagree with my statement referred to, but looking at the previous verse “…He has names written and a name written which no one knows but himself.” (WEB) Most translations don’t have “has written names”; however, I find it interesting that it is inserted here. Who is known by more than one name? God or Jesus? What is most written about is the second half – a name only he knows. Are you saying that Jesus has a name that only he knows and that God his Father does not know!?! Sounds like a rebellious kid… hiding something from dad.
me
I gave you a first explanation about the name in Revelation 19:13 and it still holds. We may talk about it again.
Well, there’s one thing, I didn’t pay attention to what my favorite bible said in Rev.19:13 about the name.
👇
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, 👉 that no man knew,👈 but he himself.
It is clear from the KJB that this means that NO MEN KNOW THIS NAME.
This does not mean that GOD does not know him because God knows everything.TO BE FOLLOWED LATER
🙏
You
The flaw with your assertion is Christ ministry wasn’t to “stomp” people like one does in a wine press (put it all into context). God is judging Edom in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Malachi; and in the book of Revelation, God is judging mankind.
Me
You Say :
and in the book of Revelation, God is judging mankind.
It’s not true. God entrusted “judgment” to Christ.
👇
John 5
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
[21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed 👉all judgment unto the Son:👈
[23] That all men should honor the Son👈, even as they👉 honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.🙏
Hi Gene, and ALL,
You: THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING “IN” , SOMEONE.
Your stubbornness is TERRIBLE!
Isaiah 55:8
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
DID YOU GET THAT Gene?
You said: We all know God the Father is a Spirit,
according to Jesus right,
THANKS, Gene, that you INDIRECTLY finally realized that ONLY JESUS IS OUR FIRST LOVE, IN ORDER, TO ESTABLISH OURSELVES SPIRITUALLY-MINDED/ALIVE, IN RELATION TO THE FATHER, OK? Well clear in
John15:1 I AM the TRUE vine;
Gene, the Father is ONLY THE HUSBANDMAN, THE BRANCHES ARE PART OF THE VINE:
JESUS, and SEPARATED TOTALLY FROM THE FATHER! READ:
and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch IN ME, that beareth not fruit,
HE WILL TAKE IT AWAY: Luke 3:9
Gene, reflect please on Jesus’ own words above: JESUS MADE IT WELL CLEAR THAT
THE BRANCH IS PART OF THE VINE, TO MAKE IT CLEAR HE REFERRED TO THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HIM AND HUMANITY, ATTENTION PLEASE: IT MUST BE
PHYSICAL!
You: So how can he be in Jesus and Jesus “in” him? ,
it works this way, as Jesus Grow in the words of God, who was telling him what to say and do, he was retaining the words of God “IN” HIM, and as he was retaining those words, the person or being, who said those words was existing “in” him, by those word remaining “IN” HIM.
NO Gene, that is your carnal-minded reasoning with every respect!
Jesus was well clear that the relationship between Him, the VINE, and humanity, THE BRANCHES MUST BE PHYSICAL! Attention please again:
Which Jesus achieved on His resurrection embodied with the entire human race all IN HIM,
ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS/SISTERS IN HIS GLORIFIED BODY,
THE NEW ADAM, THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, attention please AGAIN,
BORN ANEW FROM THE DEAD/SPIRITUALLY DEAD, IN HELL AND ON EARTH!
More to come
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Proclaimer. ……by separation Jesus from the rest of humanity, you are creating another inanity different from us. SO WITH YOU , it is, God the father, Jesus the you don’t know what, an angel, or unknown inanity of some kind? , please inform us who and what class of being is Jesus, seeng you say he is not GOD, and he preexisted his birth on this earth, please identify who or what he is to you.
My bible says he was made a little lower then the angels, just like we were, for the tasting of death just like we do, my bible shows he is clearly a human being, even born exactly as we are I have neve seen a single scripture that say he was “Morphed” from one state of existence to another, no scripture says that.
You say Jesus created everything, my bible Says, God the Father created this world and ev1erything in it. By himself and alone, you believe Jesus is God’s word, but Jesus said (not me) the words I am telling you are “Not” MY, words.
You blame others of formulating doctrine from their own selves, and you do the same thing , by not admitting the truth when it is presented to you.
As I told you years ago, you are half way in and half way out, Luke warm , dosen’t cut it Proclaimer, Rev 3:15
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Carmel……Jesus is not our first love, God the Father is. I explained that to you all , Go read what the Spirit said to the Church of Ephesus, then remember who Jesus said should be our first love, when the man ask him what was the greatest commandment, it goes like this, “you shall “LOVE”, THE LORD YOUR GOD , WITH “ALL” YOU MIGHT, ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR SOLE,
THAT is what the Church forgot to do, by applying everything they did to Jesus, they left their “First love” , Which should have been GOD THE FATHER, and c applied it to Jesus. Is that not what you people do?
Peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene
Hi Gene,
Continue:
You: THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING “IN” , SOMEONE.
ME: Let’s read again
John 15:1 I AM the TRUE vine; and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch IN ME,
that beareth not fruit,
HE WILL TAKE IT AWAY:
and everyone that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Physically speaking, Jesus as THE TRUE VINE said
Every branch IN ME,
Gene, Jesus could not be more specifically clear than He was, BY USING THE VINE and THE BRANCHES, in order to make us aware that our relationship IS DIRECTLY ATTACHED IN HIM, and HE IN US.
WE CANNOT BE DIRECTLY IN THE FATHER and THE FATHER IN US,
AS HE IS SPIRIT.
CLEAR?
ONLY JESUS IS DIRECTLY IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN JESUS AS ONLY JESUS IS GLORIFIED
BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH
GODMAN! Well clear in
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over ALL FLESH, that he may give eternal life to
all whom thou hast GIVEN HIM.
TH FATHER Gene, GAVE ALL POWER OVER ALL FLESH/HUMANITY, IN ORDER FOR THE FATHER TO BE IN HUMANITY, BUT ONLY THROUGH JESUS, again well clear in
John 17:21 That they all may be one,
as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;
that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them;
that they may be one, as we also are one:
JESUS IN THE ABOVE WAS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL AND HE SPOKE ABOUT THE DIRECT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FATHER AND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. now carry on reading please:
23I in them,
and thou in me;
that they may be made perfect in one:
Don’t remain stubborn as you are Gene,
OUR FIRST LOVE/RELATIONSHIP IS WITH JESUS, NOT WITH THE FATHER, HUMANITY Gene, REJECTED THE FATHER/SPIRIT IN THE GARDEN, AND THE FATHER SACRIFICED HIS SON FOR OUR SAKE!
HE IS THE ONLY MEDIATOR/SPIRIT. Attention and read please:
and the world may know that thou hast sent me,
and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.
Let’s carry on reading
John 15:3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you.
by reason of the word, which means BY REASON OF THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WHO ETERNALLY IS IN JESUS.
A SPIRIT WITHIN A SPIRIT!
DESPITE THE FACT THAT JESUS IS ALSO A HUMAN! THE SON OF MAN!
BUT ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS JESUS UNIFIED INTO ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH THE SON OF GOD, THE HOLY GHOST and THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD” made flesh.
You: Remember Jesus said (not me), “the words I am telling you are “Spirit”. Yes they were God the Father’s word and he is Spirit, So “HIS” words are also Spirit”
Thank you, Gene, BUT YOU HAVE TO PRACTICE WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING!
Read again what I said above please:
John 15:3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you.
by reason of the word, which means BY REASON OF THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WHO ETERNALLY IS IN JESUS.
A SPIRIT WITHIN A SPIRIT!
You: when we become one with God the Father and Jesus their words remain in us, that is what makes us , “ONE” WITH THEM.” ,
NOW YOU ARE CONFUSED I’M AFRAID!
JESUS SAID (NOT ME)
John17:23I in them,
and thou in me;
that they may be made perfect in one:
JESUS CHRIST OUR FIRST LOVE!
WE BECOME DIRECTLY ONE WITH JESUS, ONLY
JESUS IS DIRECTLY ONE WITH THE FATHER.
they exist “in” us by their word and we exist in them by our words also.
NO, NO, and NO!
THE ABOVE IS YOUR CARNAL-MINDED REASONING! WITH EVERY RESPECT
Keep on reading!
John15:4Abide in me, and I in you.
ARE YOU STILL BLIND
You: They are simply the blind leading the blind, stumbling over themselves constantly, never coming to understand the real truth. SAD!
YOUR OWN WORDS CONDEMNES YOU Gene, in the above!
Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
John15:4….As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, HERE IT COMES Gene::
so neither can you, unless you abide IN ME.
JESUS ON HIS RESURRECTION UNITED PHYSICALLY THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE
ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS/SISTERS IN HIM!
THEN TO BECOME THE SECOND ADAM! THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, JESUS’ RESURRECTED BODY, TH ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IN THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD” made flesh, INTEGRATED WITH THE HOLY GHOST IN THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST,
GODMAN!
GOD OF ALL FLESH! Jeremiah 32;27
GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE!
you shall “LOVE”, THE LORD YOUR GOD , WITH “ALL” YOU MIGHT, ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR SOLE,
John 15:5 I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:
WHERE IS THE FATHER IN THE ABOVE?
ATTENTION Gene please:
for without me you can do nothing.
Jesus is our FIRST love!
JESUS IS THE BRIDEGROOM and
WE ARE THE BRIDE!
OUR FIRST LOVE IS
JESUS!
More to come!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Gene, and ALL,
Continue,
You: THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING “IN” , SOMEONE.
when we become one with God the Father and Jesus their words remain in us, that is what makes us , “ONE” WITH THEM.” ,they exist “in” us by their word and we exist in them by our words also.
Me: Let’s carry on reading
John15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.
Notice Gene, Jesus in the above, specifically confirmed that:
(1) We must ABIDE IN HIM, NOT OUR WORDS ABIDE IN HIM, as you suggested, and
(2) HIS WORDS ABIDE IN US, in the plural, which is a clear reference to His Gospel, His teachings, though you hardly believe so. Now to the most vital:
(3) you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.
Now, in order to understand what in actual fact Jesus is talking about, the question that we must ask is:
HOW DO WE AS HUMANS IN FLESH AND BLOOD ON EARTH COULD ABIDE IN JESUS?
Read again what I already made it clear in the previous post:
John15:4….As the BRANCH cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the VINE,
HERE IT COMES Gene::
so neither can you, unless you abide IN ME.
Jesus, as THE SON OF MAN, in the above, spoke from the perspective of the physical aspect of His process regarding our HUMAN relationship with Him.
NOT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE SPIRITUAL ASPECT OF HIS FATHER!
The fact that Jesus called His Father the husbandman!
INDIRECTLY INVOLVED OUTSIDE OF JESUS’ HUMAN PROCESS. THE FACT THAT JESUS IS
THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE, plus that
No man comes to the Father, but by JESUS.
Thus, God the Father sent His Son ,
PURPOSELY “THE WORD” MADE FLESH,
A SPIRIT PURPOSELY MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN, THE SON OF THE FATHER, WHO IS SPIRIT IN ORDER TO INTEGRATE THE SUBSTANCE OF THE HUMAN FLESH AND THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER INTO ONE SUBSTANCE BY WHICH TASK HUMANITY WOULD BECOME GENUINELY
CHILDREN OF GOD IN ONE SAME BLOOD AND OF ONE SAME FATHER
ALL IN HIS SON
THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE. Well asserted by Jesus to Mary Magdalene in
John20:17 Jesus saith to her: ……I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God
GOT IT? No you don’t, your mentality is only carnally FOCUSED, and flesh counts for nothing when it comes to God’s general work, it is His spirit which gives life to all of His work, EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO THE FLESH;
as God is SPIRIT!
AS YOU WELL SAID, BUT NEVER PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH, with every respect.
Jesus in the above scripture confirmed that HE ASCENDED TO
THE UNIQUE GLORY BOTH OF
OUR FATHER ASA HUMAN AND HIS FATHER AS SPIRIT and
OUR GOD AS A HUMAN AND HIS GOD AS SPIRIT
Jesus in this unique glory all in Himself IN ONE INSTANT AS HE FEELS FIT possesses
ONE DIVINE/HUMAN BODY.TO BE CLEAR
THE ENTIRE NEW SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL CREATION IS IN ONE GLORY EMBODIED IN JESUS PURPOSELY:
“THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN
JESUS CHRIST
GODMAN
Colossians 1:19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,
that all fullness should dwell;
Now we come to what Jesus meant when he said:
John15:7 If you abide in me,
and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.
Once we TRULY believe in Jesus, and practice what we believe:
WE HUMANS IN FLESH AND BLOOD WOULD ABIDE IN JESUS’ GLORIFIED EMBODIMENT OF THE NEW CREATION.
GODMAN!
WE WOULD BE GODS ON EARTH!
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
NOW READ AGAIN JESUS’ OWN WORDS PLEASE:
John15:7 If you abide in me, ( PURE FAITH)
and my words abide in you, (PRACTICE PURE FAITH)
you shall ask whatever you will,
and it shall be done unto you.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Proclaimer. ……by separation Jesus from the rest of humanity, you are creating another inanity different from us.
Still making this false claim? When are you going to learn? If I believe that he existed in the form of God (divine nature) then emptying himself, and coming in the flesh then living as a baby like us and growing and learning like us into an adult, then how is it exactly that I separate him from humanity. I don’t. So please move on to other points that may be outstanding. Your attention to this would be appreciated. It will save going over the same old stuff time and time again. Please gene. You haven’t learned a thing for over a decade. At least admit that your assertion about me supposedly denying that Jesus is a man is a false assertion.
@ Proclaimer,
This entire conversation is a circle, it’s the same argument for the last 20 years. One side pitted against the other and both sides having the mindset of “I’m right and your wrong.” Always repeating the same thing. Either Christ preexisted or he didn’t; one belief is wrong and the other correct, both can’t be right.
The real “nuts and bolts” of this entire conversation comes down to whether or not we understand scripture from a Jewish or a Nicean perspective? I will confidentially say most have rejected the Jewish in favor of the Nicean. Don’t believe me, look at any churches belief statement and you will find it mimics the Nicean Creed. Which may be why there are over 30,000 different denominations worldwide today.
I will challenge you or anyone to scripturally prove Christ preexistence in the old testament. Why do you believe what you believe? Take a stand.
I will challenge you or anyone to scripturally prove Christ preexistence in the old testament. Why do you believe what you believe? Take a stand.
No one has ever proven
that Christ did not pre-exist.
The proofs that he pre-existed exist, but they are denied purely and simply. And that is the work of the Enemy of Souls.🙏
@ Berean,
“The real “nuts and bolts” of this entire conversation comes down to whether or not we understand scripture from a Jewish or a Nicean perspective.”
Which perspective are you using to understand scripture? The Adventists “belief” page mimics the Nicean Creed, case and point. Then to use a blanket statement of those who don’t believe the same as you are of the enemy – my head shakes. The real work of the enemy happened in 325AD when Christ was made equal to the Father.
Since you believe Christ preexisted you should have no problem supporting this in the old testament…begin.
Equal to the Father is wrong for sure.
However, being just a man who was created and started his existence some 2000 years ago is also wrong.
Like many things, the truth is in neither extreme. A bit like politics. Extreme right and extreme left are dangerous.
What we know from scripture is this.
He existed in the form of God (not as God himself), emptied himself, came in the flesh, was born and grew like any one of us (lived as a man – had to learn as a man). Died. Rose again. Is now with the Father in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.
In other words, he came down from Heaven as the bread of heaven. He became one of us and lived as us and suffered as one of us. He returned and he will take many with him so they can become what he is now. Glorified with a body like his. This is what we read in the New Testament which is a greater revelation. This is why we in the kingdom of God are greater than John the Baptist despite him being the greatest amongst us. Because he was of the old covenant and we stand on the shoulders of the new covenant.
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
So you won’t find much in the Old Testament because the season was not right, apart from perhaps Melchizedek or the Messenger of the LORD who was referred to as God, but makes sense if it was Jesus Christ as he is the image of the INVISIBLE God, the full expression of his being. But this is speculation despite how well it might fit especially also given that that messenger is never mentioned in the time of Christ. But the mysteries are being revealed as time moves forward. And one day it will all be known. But what is revealed to us now is that God sent the one whom he made the cosmos for and through. The plan was from before the foundation of the world. And our world was the right time to evoke the plan.
This entire conversation is a circle, it’s the same argument for the last 20 years. One side pitted against the other and both sides having the mindset of “I’m right and your wrong.” Always repeating the same thing. Either Christ preexisted or he didn’t; one belief is wrong and the other correct, both can’t be right.
Exactly. Except I am challenged when I repeat scripture as it is written and these scriptures are my beliefs. I simply repeat them and get challenged. Take of that as you will. I can honestly say that those that challenge these NT scriptures are always adding in words and ignoring the clear readings of the text. For example, I believe this as it is written and they challenge it which is fine. But then that means they do not believe because they reject the New Testament as it is a revelation of the messiah and who he is. They preach a different Christ to that which is recorded in the New Testament.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.It’s really very clear. You either believe or you don’t and like I said, if you don’t, then fine. It is your life and do with it as you will. Although Gene doesn’t even believe in free will, so he thinks he has no free choice in the matter, which when you think about it, he is saying that even if he is wrong, he will still choose that way.
I will challenge you or anyone to scripturally prove Christ preexistence in the old testament. Why do you believe what you believe? Take a stand.
Why not make the same challenge for the New Testament?
@ Proclaimer,
For me there is only a right and wrong, no maybe; it’s black and white, no gray; pick a side of the fence, can’t exist on both sides at the same time nor straddle it; and there is no middle of the road. So the truth will never be in the middle. If you want to call it “extreme”, so be it; I call it a truth or a lie.
Neither example you gave are comparable, Christ is or isn’t equal to God and either Christ preexisted or he was born 2000 years ago as a man foreknown by GOD to do HIS will before the creation of the world. There cannot be a “middle” understanding with either one. Christ said something about being hot or cold and not lukewarm.
I can go into great length explaining why I believe what I believe and to a small degree I have explained some of what I believe and using scripture to support the why. Yet you and others have simply rejected what I have said, so for you to lament over someone challenging what you believe – I’m there. I’ve only been here for a couple months, you have been here for 20 years. For the last year I have received nothing but criticism, told I am wrong, I’m going to Hell, I’m not saved, I am going to die in this belief both physically and spiritually, and the questions I ask are of Satan.
This goes back to what I said earlier, do we understand scripture with a Jewish or a Nicean mindset? Most have chosen the Nicean and have rejected the Jewish. Do we understand Jewish idioms?
We both know no one will find anything in the old testament concerning the “preexistence” of Christ, it doesn’t exist; which is why you want to use the new testament to prove Christ’s “preexistence.” I can cite you most of the verses used to support it too; today I don’t hold that same view. I still can’t get over how people reject the Jewish understanding in favor of a Roman-Greco understanding when the entirety of scripture was written by Jews.
Come on, let’s restart from zero
The first chapter of the first book of the Bible mentions the presence of the Son of God with the Father.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness….
LET US MAKE MAN….
You think that God speaks to the angels, I do not believe it because the angels collaborated in nothing with the creation of the man, but the Son yes. This will be confirmed later by John and Paul.
Just John:
….without him was not any thing made that was made.
Hey! John WAS a jew with the SPIRIT OF truth !
🙏
@ Berean,
Let’s go back to Genesis 1:26, the “us” and “our” in the creation of man. Your belief tells you it’s Jesus, the Jews understood it was the heavenly hosts to whom God was speaking. Who’s correct, you or the Jews? You reject the idea the God of the universe would dare speak to his heavenly creation and assert by speaking to them HE was seeking their advice on how to create man. Nowhere in these verses does it claim this, that’s you. This is twisted and polluted thinking!
Even modern theologian Gordon J. Wenham, writes in his Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, “From Philo onward, Jewish commentators have generally held that the plural [in Genesis 1:26, ‘Let us make man….’] is used because God is addressing his heavenly court, i.e., the angels (cf. Isa. 6:8).” He then goes on to say the belief the “us” and “our” being referenced to Jesus “is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.” (1987 p27) (Wenham’s words sourced from the writings of others, I do NOT have this commentary)
Now what? Do we continue to reject this thought or actually look into it ourselves?
I believed as you do until I started asking what did the Jews really mean in their writings, what were they trying to convey; and this is when everything changed. Be your user name and start verifying what your pastor teaches and the doctrine within your church; see where it takes you. It caused me to leave the corporate church because what they were teaching didn’t align with what scripture really said.
Neither example you gave are comparable, Christ is or isn’t equal to God and either Christ preexisted or he was born 2000 years ago as a man foreknown by GOD to do HIS will before the creation of the world. There cannot be a “middle” understanding with either one. Christ said something about being hot or cold and not lukewarm.
Scripture teaches using multiple views that Jesus Christ was the first to be with God and that he has first place in all things. Even logic and common sense tells you that someone had to be the first to be with God. And scripture teaches us about the special conditions of firstborns. They inherit the estate. When you realise that Jesus is the Word of God and firstborn, you see why he inherits the kingdom of God. All things made for him and through him.
Of course, a literal firstborn can lose that title and lose that title to another. So if Jesus is 2000 or so years old, who did he take firstborn status from? Don’t tell me Adam because Adam was not the first to be with God and we are taught that Jesus is the final Adam too. Further, angels were present at the creation of the earth:
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?”
Rather, Jesus Christ has jurisdiction over all sons of God including these angels and morning stars. Even demons are subject to him and knew he was the son of God. They believed in who he was, yet some Christians do not believe it seems.
Hi Proclaimer,
In one post you said, “If I believe that he existed in the form of God (divine nature) then emptying himself, and coming in the flesh then living as a baby like us and growing and learning like us into an adult, then how is it exactly that I separate him from humanity. I don’t. So please move on to other points that may be outstanding.”
In another post you said, “However, being just a man who was created and started his existence some 2000 years ago is also wrong.”
These two don’t align and it is what Gene and I have had a problem with for so many years now.
The second you say that Jesus was MORE than a human being is the second that you separate him from humanity. I don’t honestly see how it is that you don’t get that.
The human Jesus receiving the Spirit of God WITHOUT MEASURE to do all of God’s will, perform His works and speak His words is exactly Jesus existing in the form of God. I also don’t see how it is that you don’t get that.
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