JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Jodi]

Good Evening Berean,

Surely for someone so invested in God’s word, sharing and defending it’s truth, that being asked to read 6 scriptures out of 2 chapters and then explain how they specifically fit in with your belief, is not too much to ask, should be a rather small task.

[Berean]

Jodi

I confirm that all the biblical texts proving the preexistence and the divinity of Christ have been given for a long time.
It is a matter of faith in the true text of the Holy Bible.

🙏

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

KJ says,

Isaiah 45,

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Can you please speak directly to these passages?

Jesus is NOT the Creator according to King James, he is the one of prophecy that our Creator called to righteousness and made into a light. We are directly given that this Creator by HIMSELF formed the earth and made it, it is He that forms the light. To turn and say that the man of the prophecy made into a LIGHT by the Creator actually pre-exited as the Creator, is just utterly deplorable.

You really need to explain yourself.

[DesireTruth]

@ Berean,

I’m going to go back to when I spoke earlier about the possibility of God speaking to the angels at creation.

Is it true, most, if not all, the writings of the scripture where written by Jews? So, should we interpret the scriptures from a Hebraic understanding or use our modern English for understanding? Does our understanding today override the understanding of the Jewish writer?

Gen 1:26 isn’t the only place where God uses this plural of “us” and “our”:
Gen 3:22 “And the LORD God said, “Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”
Gen 11:7 “Come, let’s (let us) go down and confuse their language…”
Isa 6:8 I heard the voice of the sovereign master say, “Whom will I send? Who will go on our behalf?”

You have rejected the “us” and “our” being angels God was speaking to in favor of there being a preexistent Jesus. Is it possible the angels were also created with the same characteristics men have, thus having the same “likeness” and “image”? Many times when angels interact with man they have the same physical characteristics. Don’t the angels possess moral, spiritual, intellectual, and emotional qualities just as man does?

Gen 18 the three men Abraham ran to meet. Looked like men
Gen 19 Lot when the angels came to Sodom. Looked like men
I Pet 1:12 with the proclaiming of the gospel, “…things angels long to catch a glimpse of.”
Luke 20:36 angels do not die. Something we get to look forward to in our new bodies.
Luke 15:10 “…there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Don’t we “rejoice” over a “new believer”?
Luke 1:13 a multitude of the heavenly host were praising God. Aren’t we to praise God too?
In Job 1, didn’t the angels present themselves before God, including Lucifer?

While scripture specifically states we are created in God’s image; wouldn’t it be possible this same image and likeness that we have, are also present in angels? After all, angels and man have the same creator – God.

Is this understanding incorrect? If so, explain.

[carmel]

Hi Jodi and Gene,

Me:  Answer,

If as you, Jodi WELL said that

 This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him

an eternal kingdom,

HOW IS IT THAT THIS SUPPOSED ETERNAL KINGDOM PROMISED BY THE FATHER TO HIS SON,

THIS SON OF MAN,

WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, John 3:13

AT THE VERY END IS GIVEN TO GOD,  TO BE
ALL  IN ALL FOR ETERNITY?
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THIS SON OF MAN THEN, Jodi?

WHERE WOULD THIS SON OF MAN, while God would be all in all,

ENDS UP?

HE DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE OVER HIS SUPPOSED

ETERNAL THRONE NO?

AS ETERNAL KING! AGAIN, OVER HIS SUPPOSED

ETERNAL KINGDOM?

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

[GeneBalthrop]

Desire Truth. …….What I believe God was speaking to,  was the “Seven Spirits of God “,  these seven .spirits are what I believe God sends out into all his Kingdom , to perform his will in all his creation. We are told Theses Seven Spirits gobefore his throne and go out into the earth to perform the will of God, in all his holy creation.  Not trying to preach this as dogma, but offing it as a possibility.  

Another thing to consider is that,  we become more like God when he gives us of his Spirit, Scripture shows that  Jesus had the full measure of God’s spirits,  as Jodi has brought out many times.  Just offering this for descusion.

Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth. …………gene

[Berean]

Hi DesireTruth

You

I’m going to go back to when I talked earlier about the possibility of God speaking to angels at creation.

Me
Angels have nothing to do with the creation of the heavens and the earth. Sorry, even though they are very powerful, they are not ALL POWERFUL.

The text says:
Let’s do the man….
Did the angels participate in the creation of man?

On the other hand, THE ONE WHO JOHN CALLS “THE WORD” HAS INHERITED THE POWER TO CREATE.
SO WHY REJECT THE FACT THAT THE FATHER TALKS TO HIS SON?

Is it true that most, if not all, of the writings of Scripture were written by Jews? So should we interpret the scriptures from a Hebrew understanding or use our modern English to understand? Does our understanding today outweigh the understanding of the Jewish writer?

Me

There are bibles more reliable than others, and I invite you to read the book by H.H.MEYERS
THE BATTLE OF THE BIBLES
that I post on Heavennet.net

But you can read it directly if you want it at this address:

https://temcat.com/005-Bible-versions/Bible-Battle/BATTLE%20OF%20THE%20BIBLES-E-All.pdf

Discovering the thought of the Jewish writer is of course essential.
Personally, I don’t know ancient Hebrew.
Greek, we can with the various dictionaries, lexicons, concordances, manage to manage to understand the main part of the text.

 

Gen 1:26 is not the only place where God uses this plural of “we” and “our”:
Gen 3:22 “And the LORD God said, Now that man is become as one of us, knowing good and evil”
Gen 11:7 “Come, let us go down and confuse their tongues…”
Isa 6:8 I heard the voice of the sovereign master say: “Whom shall I send? Who will go in our name?

You rejected the “us” and “our” being of the angels God was speaking to in favor of the existence of a pre-existent Jesus.

Me

I gave you the reasons

I repeat the thing: In this passage, the purpose of GOD is to create man
Let us mâle  man….
will the angels take part in the creation of man?
Of course not

Be spectators, maybe.

Is it possible that angels were also created with the same characteristics as men, thus having the same “likeness” and “image”? Often when angels interact with humans, they have the same physical characteristics. Do not angels possess moral, spiritual, intellectual and emotional qualities just like man?

Gen 18 the three men Abraham ran to meet. Looked like men
Gen 19 Lot when the angels came to Sodom. Looked like men
I Pet 1:12 with the proclamation of the gospel, “…things which the angels desire to see.”
Luke 20:36 angels do not die. Something we look forward to in our new bodies. Luke 15:10 “…there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Don’t we “rejoice” in a “new believer”?

Luke 1:13 a multitude of the heavenly host were praising God. Shouldn’t we also praise God?
In Job 1, didn’t the angels come before God, including Lucifer?

While scripture specifically states that we are created in the image of God; wouldn’t it be possible that this same image and likeness that we have is also present in the angels? After all, angels and man have the same creator – God.

Is this understanding incorrect? If yes, explain.

Me

I have never read in the Bible that angels were created in the image and likeness of God.

What I do know is that man was created a little lower than angels.

psalms 8
[4] What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?
[5] For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

As for the mission of the angels, it is specified in Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[DesireTruth]

@ Gene,

Not familiar with the “seven spirits of God” teaching as you have summarized; please provide a little more background (ie scripture references). I don’t need a book explanation, just pointed in the “right” direction so I know where to begin the study. I do my own research so as not to cloud my thinking or have doctrinal bias implanted.

Thanks

[Jodi]

Hi Desire Truth,

My understanding I believe is similar if not the same as Gene’s.

The “us” represents His Spirit(s). I first thought as well as you did that He might have been talking about the angels, but in reading that God says that He created earth and man upon it by Himself I realized that then didn’t fit.

I think it’s interesting that it’s reiterated directly after, that it was God himself that made man and did so in His image.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

We know according to Paul that we were predestined to be made into the image of the Son and Paul gives us directly that image when he says that those who are Led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and that the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God, heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ.

We also know that Jesus said that we would be baptized with the baptism he received and would drink of the one cup of the One Spirit as he does. We read in Isaiah 11 that Jesus received the Spirit, the Spirit of Wisdom, the Spirit of Understanding, ..the Spirit of Knowledge and Reverence/Faith for God. Then we read in 1 Cor 12, “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;”

To me it then becomes clear why we read the “us” and the “our” in the making of man and then again we read that it was God Himself and His image. The image of God is His Spirit and we are given that such includes several Spirits therein, Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Faith and we also know from Galatians 5 that His Spirit is also the source of love, kindness, self-control, patience, etc..

[Berean]

You

Hi Berean,

KJ says,

Isaiah 45,

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

18 For thus knows the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Can you please speak directly to these passages?

Jesus is NOT the Creator according to King James, he is the one of prophecy that our Creator called to righteousness and made into a light. We are directly given that this Creator by HIMSELF formed the earth and made it, it is He that forms the light.

To turn and say that the man of the prophecy made into a LIGHT by the Creator actually pre-exited as the Creator, is just utterly deplorable.

You really need to explain yourself.

Me

You jump to conclusions too quickly.

IT IS WRITTEN IN ISAIAH 45 THIS THIS IS OK

BUT IT IS 👉 ALSO WRITTEN 👈 IN COLOSSIANS 2 ABOUT JESUS

all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So how do we reconcile these verses with each other?

Honestly I was sometimes perplexed, but the Bible cannot contradict itself BUT ONLY COMPLETE ITSELF.

THE REVELATION OF THE THINGS OF GOD IS PROGRESSIVE.
THIS IS WHY, ONE SHOULD NOT DRAW TOO QUICK CONCLUSIONS CONCERNING THE OLD TESTAMENT.

THE NEW TESTAMENT IS HERE TO ILLUMINATE THE OLD.
JUST AS THE SUN IS THE SOURCE OF LIGHT FOR THE MOON, SO THE NEW TESTAMENT IS THE SOURCE OF LIGHT THAT ILLUMINATES THE OLD TESTAMENT BECAUSE OF CHRIST WHO IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD:

👉Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.(John 8:12)

THE MOON IS THE OLD TESTAMENT, THE SUN IS THE NEW TESTAMENT

LOOK IN REVELATION 12

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with THE SUN, and THE MOON under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

:
[2] And she being with child cried, laboring in birth, and pained to be delivered.

a woman: it is the symbol of the people of God
especially when Jesus is about to be born…and in the time of the apostles

clothed with the SUN …

But for you who fear my name will rise the sun of justice with healing under its wings;
Job 29:14
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

It is this church of the apostles clothed with the righteousness of Christ that is symbolized here

and the moon under her feet

the moon here is the symbol of the economy of the old testament.
The fact is that the moon is under his feet means that the time of the old covenant is over.

and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The stars symbolize the 12 apostles the foundations of the new covenant of GOD and Christ.

Rev.12:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THIS
THE 12 APOSTLES OF JESUS ARE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE NEW JERUSALEM (WIFE OF CHRIST)

👇
Rev.21 ….[9]Come hither, I will show you THE BRIDE, THE LAMB’S WIFE.

[ 10 ] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me THAT GREAT CITY, HOLY JÉRUSALEM, coming down out of heaven from God, [ 11 ]

having the glory of God, and his light was as to a most precious stone, even as a stone of jasper, clear as crystal;

The seven stars are the angels(messengers) of the seven churches:(Rev.1:20)

THEREFORE THE 12 APOSTLES OF THE LAMB ARE THE FOUNDATION OF CHRIST’S WIFE, HIS FAITHFUL CHURCH.

BUT THE 12 PATRIARCHS (12 tribes of the children of Israel: ) SYMBOLIZE THE OLD COVENANT THEY ARE THE DOORS OF SOME KIND TO THE WIFE OF CHRIST (THE CHURCH OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

👉 Rev.21 [12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAËL.

MY SHEMATIZED CONCLUSION TODAY IS THAT ACCORDING TO HIS TEXTS:
WE ENTER THE CHURCH OF CHRIST THROUGH THE GATES OF THE REVELATIONS OF GOD BY THE PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS MADE UNDER THE OLD COVENANT (THE MOON)

AND
WE ARE FOUNDED SURELY ON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES.(THE NEW COVENANT)

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;(Eph.2:20)
LANGUAGES.

Ephesians 3:5
It was not manifested to the sons of men in other generations, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to the holy apostles and prophets of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no man can lay any other foundation than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ.

All this being said,
We can affirm that God our Father is THE CREATOR AND SOURCE of all things and he achieved his creation and re-creation THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND FOR JESUS CHRIST.

PAUL ASSURES US:

all things were created BY HIM, and FOR HIM:
[17] And he is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. 

🙏

 

[Jodi]

Hi Berean and All,

I want to point out that it is ONLY in the making of man into the image of God that we see an “us” and an “our”.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

when it comes to the making of man,

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Jesus said, 

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

There is actually a lot that Jesus says in this chapter, he speaks about people entering into the Kingdom of THE God who had made them male and female.

15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus identifies that God is ONE, that he is NOT God, that only God is good and this God in the beginning made them male and female. It’s not possible given scripture to say Jesus represents the “us” in Genesis 1:26.

To turn and say Jesus made man and made them male and female is a direct lie against scripture.

30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

45 For even the Son of man CAME not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. …12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that CAME down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

So much is given in these passages that I could then align with so many others. 

JESUS IS NOT GOD.

Jesus did not make man in the beginning, God did by His own word. 

The Son of Man CAME from God according to God’s promise which was God’s word from the beginning. As the Son of Man CAME FROM GOD, we know why then Jesus would say speaking of himself, that the Son of Man came down from heaven.

The Son of Man Jesus was born of water and of the Spirit, and Jesus teaches speaking God’s word, that such must occur  in order for man to enter God’s kingdom. This aligns perfectly with 1 Chronicle 17 where God promised to be a Father unto David’s son and settle him into His kingdom. 

I could make more points about what these passages teach, but I will jut leave it at that for now.

[Berean]

Jodi

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 

 

.🙏

[DesireTruth]

@ Berean,

Your assumption is the angels where involved in the physical act of creation – not at all what I said or implied. I am merely stating God spoke with them as he did in Job when the angels presented themselves. This experience in Job can’t possibly be the only time the angels present themselves before God, I would be safe in saying this presenting of themselves to God happens often. Thus God communicates with his created angels on a “regular basis”. God’s plan for man before he sinned.

You: The text says:
“Let’s do the man….”
What?! You lost me on that.

You: Discovering the thought of the Jewish writer is of course essential. Personally, I don’t know ancient Hebrew. Greek, we can with the various dictionaries, lexicons, concordances, manage to manage to understand the main part of the text.

Interesting response, while you say understanding the thought of the Jewish writer is essential, you reject the Jewish understanding of God speaking to the angels. This “thought” wasn’t my own, this was discovering through writings of Jewish minds. I am baffled how today “scholars” embrace the philosophical Greek over Hebrew. Greek isn’t God’s language, Hebrew is; and the entire old testament is written in Hebrew. So there is NO excuse to not understand what was written and gain understanding from a Hebraic mindset when studying the old and applying to the new. I will say this again; to understand the new, one has to understand the old. If the new is the only side of the bible that matters, your study is in vain!

I know neither Greek nor Hebrew, but as you mention there are aids to help study scripture. The unfortunate is the Greek study tools have taken precedence over the Hebrew, ever wonder why? If you’re wanting to dive into the Hebrew, Brown-Driver-Briggs is an excellent source of study and is part of blueletterbible and biblehub (two places I use to study word meanings in both Greek and Hebrew).

You: I have never read in the Bible that angels were created in the image and likeness of God.

To whom were the scriptures written, angels or men? We aren’t given any “history” of before creation other than it being a big nothingness, without form, and void. Concerning angels, we must rely on what scripture tell us about them and we are given glimpses of who the angels are, as sited in the verses previously written. What is found are similarities to man and man was created in God’s image, sooooo. The amazing thing about angels is they are fully obedient to God’s commands/words.

One last thing on the “essentialness” of understanding the Jewish thought, can you find any scriptures in the old testament that state Christ preexisted with God?

[Berean]

Hi DesireTruth

God WHO SAID:

LET US MAKE MAN…

DID NOT SPEAK TO ANGELS

HE WAS TALKING TO HIS SON

HIS SON WAS THE ONLY BY WHOM ALL THINGS WERE MADE 👉JOHN,1:3

AND HIS SON WAS GOD IN THE BEGINNING,. AND HE WAS WITH THE GOD.

GOD DID NOT CONSULT THE ANGELS TO CREATE MAN BUT HIS SON.

ALL THE OTHER 5 DAYS OF CREATION HE WAS WITH THE GOD, THAT’S WHY ON THE SIXTH DAY, HE SAID LET’S MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE ACCORDING TO OUR LIKENESS (OF FATHER AND SON)

THE OLD TESTAMENT PROCLAIMS THE MESSIAH WILL COME, THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT HE HAS COME AND WILL RETURN.

BY PROPHET MICAH GOD HAS SPOKEN THIS: (5:2)

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; 👉whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.👈

This means that the origin of the Messiah dates back to the days of eternity.
and SO THIS PROVES THAT THE MESSIAH WAS PRE-EXISTING.

MOREOVER IT IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE OBLIGATION TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE TO START WITH THE OLD TESTAMENT,

MANY PEOPLE STARTED WITH THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THEN WERE LEADED TO THE OLD…THERE IS NO RIGID RULES FOR THIS…THE BIBLE IS ONE WHOLE, IT IS GOD’S WORD.

BY THE WAY, I HAVE BEEN A LONE MEMBER OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH FOR MORE THAN FORTY YEARS. AND I ADHERE TO THE DOCTRINES OF THE PIONEERS OF THIS SAME CHURCH.

MAY GOD PROTECT YOU.

[DesireTruth]

@ Berean,

This is one large merry-go-round; a circular trajectory we travel. Over the last year I have been on a quest of sorts wanting, seeking, and searching for scriptural truth. Took my questions to the pastors of the church only to be told I’m wrong and even told I needed to stop studying so much…what the what!?!? In this process I began questioning the validity of doctrines held by the church and that has taken me down more paths than I care to count and has left me with more questions than answers. The one thing that has remained consistent is everyone’s doctrine is correct and the other guys is wrong. How can everyone be right and wrong at the same time. Quite the paradox isn’t it?

Not many truly dig into scripture today, they rely on pastors to tell them what the bible says. There’s a catch to self studying, any tool we use has been written by man and will contain a bias the writer leans to (the same with bible translations). Another paradox, what do you do? We are about 2000 years after the last book was written in the bible. How much has been lost in translation since then? History tells us that Constantine destroyed any writings that didn’t agree with what he decided was truth. How much truth was lost AND replaced in the process?

Anything that I have written, isn’t to change people’s mind. It’s to get people to start thinking outside the box of their doctrine. I am firm in what I believe, because I can back it up with scripture. Does that mean my mind can’t be changed, NO! Show me the error in my thinking, but you must have scripture to back it up, not doctrine, not personal opinion. Don’t use “copy paste theology” either, use scripture in the context it was written.

The other thing, STOP YELLING!! What is with the cap locks on when you write!? STOP!!!

May God protect me, what does that mean!??!?!

[Berean]

Excuse me, I tend to write a lot in capital letters. It is surely a way of affirming more strongly what I believe. I know it can be annoying.
I gave you Micah 5:2 which shows us that the Messiah originated in the days of eternity

What do you think ?

And yes, may God protect you.

Don’t you think you NEED IT AS WELL AS ME AND ALL.
DON’T OFFER YOURSELF.

HI

[carmel]

Hi Gene,

Me, Back to your post for the sake of “THE WORD” and ITS TRUTH!

You: Desire truth………Simple,

 you need to just believe what Jesus told us and you have your answer,  

Jesus said  (not me)…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.  Simple as that, 

YES, Gene, you have your answer NOW, after I replied immediately to your TWISTED SUPPOSED SCRIPTURE. I also had a reply immediately from you, do you what it is Gene, 

SILENCE: AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

BY WHICH SILENCE, MY POST ENDED UP

THE TRUTH!

Now let’s read more of your twisted/lies! With every respect.

You: God and his word are one and the same person,

just as you and your words are one and the same person,

 no one else can be your word, neither,

Answer Gene, IF A JUDGE CONDEMNS A CRIMINAL, BY WHOSE WORDS HE DO SO, BY HIS OWN WORDS, AS A HUMAN LIKE THE CRIMINAL IS, I MEAN,

AS HE ACCORDING TO HIS PERSONAL STATE OF INTELLIGENCE AND REASONING, FEELS RIGHT, OR BY

THOSE WORDS WRITTEN FOR HIM, TO DIRECT HIM, ESTABLISHED  WITHIN THE LAW BY WHOEVER GOVERNS HIS COUNTRY?   

nor can be GOD the Father’s words either,  

Me: for you, God and His spiritual eternal tasks are equivalent to our carnal mortal tasks?

Read please:

Isaiah: 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth:

it shall not return to me void,

Tell us Gene, DOES YOUR WORD EVER RETURNED TO YOU, NEVER MIND AS GOD’S DOES, I MEAN

NEVER VOID!

but it shall do whatsoever I please,

OR PERHAPS YOUR WORD, SHALL DO WHATEVER YOU PLEASE?

and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

How about this one Gene:

DOES YOUR WORD EVER PROSPERED IN THE THINGS FOR WHICH

YOU SENT IT, BY ANY CHANCE?

You: but we can “quote” someone’s words, just as Jesus and the prophets did God the Father’s words to us.  Just as scripture says,  (not me),……“God who spoke to us at Sunday time through the prophets  has in these last day spoke to us through a Son”      NONE of that says that the prophets, nor the Son was actually GOD the FATHER’S word themselves,

but that they spoke “HIS” word to us. Just that simple.

Now to scripture Gene,

John12:47 And if any man hear MY WORDS, and keep them not, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that despiseth me, and receiveth not MY WORDS,

hath one that judgeth him;

the word that I have spoken,

the same shall judge HIM in the last day. 

Attention Gene, and in this case Jodi, read please again:

JESUS’ OWN WORDS:

…..hath one that judgeth him;

THE WORD that I have spoken,

NOTICE Gene, in the above “THE WORD” is  SINGULAR, NOT PLURAL AS IN THE CASE ABOVE WHEN JESUS REFERRED TO HIS

TEACHINGS, GOSPEL/WORDS, and said:

…He that despiseth me, and receiveth not MY WORDS,

Now read Jesus’ own WORDS in the next VITAL statement:

the same shall judge HIM in the last day. 

THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM, Gene!

I make it emphatically clear to you and Jodi:

JESUS, CONFIRMED THAT, 

THE SAME, “THE WORD” SHALL JUDGE HIM

JESUS HIMSELF, AS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND

JUDGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE,

THE SON OF MAN

SHALL JUDGE HIM,

Gene, THE LAW IS GOD’S AND JESUS IS “THE WORD OF GOD!

THE JUDGE WHO APPLIES THE FATHER’S LAW

When Gene? Read:

Matthew 16:27 For the SON OF MAN shall come in the GLORY OF HIS FATHER  with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

ON HIS RETURN IN THE GLORY OF 

GOD THE FATHER!

Also CONFIRMED in

John8: 16And if I do judge, my judgment is true:

because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

 17And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two men is true. 

18I am one that give testimony of myself:

and the Father that sent me giveth testimony of me.

 

You: God and his word are one and the same person,

just as you and your words are one and the same person,

 no one else can be your word, neither,

THAT’S RIGHT Gene,

JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, AND HIS OWN WORDS ARE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON!

OFFICIALLY IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER

NO ONE ELSE CAN BE JESUS’ WORD!

ONLY THE FATHER!

SINCE THE FATHER IS HIS OWN WORDS!

SPOKEN BY and FROM WITHIN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN

“THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD.

WELL ASSERTED HERUNDER:

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

as clear as crystal Gene, and Jodi,

Jesus and the Father ARE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON AS

“THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD!

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

 

 

 

 

[Jodi]

Hi Berean,

YOU:

You jump to conclusions too quickly.

IT IS WRITTEN IN ISAIAH 45 THIS THIS IS OK

BUT IT IS   ALSO WRITTEN   IN COLOSSIANS 2 ABOUT JESUS

all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So how do we reconcile these verses with each other?

ME:

There is no jumping to conclusions going on here. What is going on is a lot of reading and re-reading of passages throughout the entire bible applying all scripture together.

There is nothing that needs to be reconciled actually.

Concerning Col 1:16, all things were created by him, as in by REASON of him. You want to insist Paul meant by MEANS of him, but the prior aligns perfectly with other scriptures and the later interpretation creates contradiction that you then are attempting to try and reconcile.

Berean, how do you not see this? It’s a fact that the word dia is utilized in language where it can mean either, by means of or by reason of. Can you acknowledge this truth? I have expressed this many times, that I interpret Col 1:16 as by REASON of him and for him and you’re acting like you are throwing some new scripture at me. I have given you numerous passages to show you how applying “by reason of” aligns everything together perfectly.

If I were pregnant and made a room for my expected child, I would be making that room by him and for him. The child does not exist yet but I know he is coming and I have prepared a room by reason of him and then of course for him.

We are given scripture that God was expecting for a child to be born of the seed of David where He would become his Father and settle him into His house and His kingdom forever and give him an eternal throne.

We are given scripture that this son of David was also promised to be made by God into His firstborn and that he would sit on a throne being made higher than all the kings of the earth.

We are given scripture that YHVH alone is God and that He by Himself created earth and man, and made the earth for it to be inhabited by people who follow Him in righteousness.

We are given scripture that YHVH declared the end from the beginning where He planned and thus prepared for one man to come who would fulfill His purpose of the earth being inhabited by people who follow Him in righteousness.

Berean, we are given directly from scripture that this man fulfills YHVH’s purpose for why YHVH created all things in the first place and we are given scripture that this man is given all things to rule over, so therefore “by reason of him and for him”, could not be more perfect. This truth comes in part in the very chapter of Isaiah where we are told that YHVH HIMSELF created earth and man. 

I ask for sound reasoning, God is not the author of confusion nor contradiction.

I will post again concerning the other parts to your post.

[carmel]

Hi Jodi,

The Word= a pre-existing Jesus who is God’s only begotten Son existing in the form of God whose name is The Word because by his word in the beginning heaven and earth were created.

Me: You said that:

Whose name is The Word BECAUSE BY HIS WORD IN THE BEGINNING HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE CREATED!

Not quite the truth! I’m afraid!

Answer please:

WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT ALL ARE CREATED BY JESUS’ WORD?

Nevertheless, ALL ARE CREATED BY HIM, AS A SPIRIT, NOT BY HIS OWN WORD. but by THE FATHER’S within Jesus A SPIRIT, CALLED “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD and

THE LIGHT and THE LIFE OF ALL!

THE FATHER IN THE SON AND THE SON IN THE FATHER FOR THE SAKE OF CREATION.

Well asserted in

John14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 

20In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 

John17:21That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 

To be Clear.

Jesus as a spirit was begotten of the Father in the very first act by God John1:1… and God all-knowing , He was established by the Father  as THE ENGRAFTED WORD, ETERNAL LIFE, and THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR between God and His creatures, in all the HEARTS of the endless SPIRITS of light emanated from God in that particular instant when God pronounced, though not as we do, His first ever WORD:

“LET THERE BE LIGHT”

The fact that scientifically it is established as “THE BIG BANG”. Well hinted out in

John12:27 Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause I came unto this hour. 28Father, glorify thy name. A voice therefore came from heaven: I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 

29The multitude therefore that stood and heard, said that IT THUNDERED.

Others said: An angel spoke to him.

You: ….whose name is The Word because by his word .….

No, Jodi, He is called “THE WORD” as Jesus, AS A SPIRIT, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING is ETERNALLY within YOU ORIGINALLY A SPIRIT, within your HEART/SOUL, TALKING TO YOU, and in the heart of all creatures in order to sustain and reconcile all for God the Father.

The fact that it is called also the engrafted “WORD”,

James1:21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness the ENGRAFTED word, which is able to save your SOULS. 

Jesus, THE ONLY ABODE OF GOD,  THE HOUSE OF THE FATHER, is the only spirit/God attached eternally directly to all creatures’ hearts/SOULS.

The only process by which God the Father is in the entire creation. Where Jesus as a spirit, ETERNAL LIFE,  from the very beginning like a treasure in a field is sacrificed and sealed for the sake of creation all in him all by him, and all for him, well clear in:

John6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed.

Psalm 69:9 For the zeal of thy house hath eaten me up: and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

John 14:1 LET not your HEART be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father’s HOUSE there are many mansions. 

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

 

[Berean]

Hi Jodi

You

 

Me

I trust in God and his Son Jesus Christ that one day you will understand THE TRUE TRUTH ABOUT WHO JESUS CHRIST REALLY IS FROM HIS DIVINE ORIGIN TO HIS INTERCESSION IN THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY NOW.

Jodi, Soon to be 71, I’m not going to change MY FAITH IN THE DIVINE SON OF GOD MADE FLESH now. it is something that I know by biblical revelation and that is engraved in my heart forever and that nothing can erase.

Dare to ask JESUS WHO HE REALLY IS.

HAVE YOU DONE IT?

YOU CAN DO IT, BECAUSE HE HEARS…

HE IS OUR COMPASSIONATE AND MERCIFUL HIGH PRIEST WHO REJECTS NO ONE WHO COMES TO HIM.

HEBREWS 1
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he MIGHT BE a, MERCIFUL and FAITHFUL HIGHT PRIEST in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Chap.7
[25] Wherefore he(Jesus) is able also TO SAVE them to THE UTTERMOST that come unto God BY HIM, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

TO SAVE them to THE UTTERMOST that come unto God BY HIM,

25
oqen kai swzein eiV to panteleV dunatai touV prosercomenouV👉 di autou tw qew pantote zwn eiV to entugcanein uper autwn

7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God👉 by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them .

God bless

[Author]

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