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Since Jesus was with God at the foundation of the world and is the one God is speaking with, that would mean there were two separate beings of the “godhead” in heaven at creation. Having two beings does not support the monotheistic faith the Jews have?
I don’t see the problem Desiretruth. Logically speaking, if we set aside scripture for a moment, someone would have to be the first to be with God. Further, that someone would have to be very special. Perhaps more special than anyone else except for God himself. This fits perfectly with The Book of John. The Word was the first to be with God.
@ Carmel,
For curiosity sake, what do you do for a living (if retired, what did you do prior) and what faith do you most identify with?Not to sound like I am prying or to seem I am demanding of you information that I wouldn’t give. For a living I am self employed running a home repair business, along with a side gig making custom wood pieces. I came from a “non-denominational” (what does that really mean – who knows) church, with the last church I attended being Southern Baptist.
However, jumping to John 1:1 and Jesus being the “word” and therefore God. How exactly does this work? I think we have a problem…
I believe the answer can be found here:
NOTE: You don’t have to read the whole thing to arrive at the answer. The answer is at the beginning of the writing. If you want more proof, just read further.
Hi DesireTruth
You
Having two beings does not support the monotheistic faith the Jews have? Deut 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”. However, jumping to John 1:1 and Jesus being the “word” and therefore God. How exactly does this work? I think we have a problem…
Me
Why? There IS no problem…..
The bible teaches us
But to us there is but one God, the Father,
👉OF WHOM are all things, and we in him;
and
one Lord Jesus Christ,
👉BY WHOM are all things, and we by him.(1Cor.8:6)
Paul to the ephesians :
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which👉 from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, 👈 who created all things 👉 by Jesus Christ:(3:19)
Chap.4
There is one body,
and 👉one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] 👉One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
[6]👉 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
God bless
🙏
Hi, Desire Truth,
You: @ Berean,
Since Jesus was with God at the foundation of the world and is the one God is speaking with, that would mean there were two separate beings of the “godhead” in heaven at creation. Having two beings does not support the monotheistic faith the Jews have? Deut 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”. However, jumping to John 1:1 and Jesus being the “word” and therefore God. How exactly does this work?
I think we have a problem…
Me: read very attentively my post, and ponder.
“THE WORD” IN John 1:1 is not just a word but also A SPIRIT, to be precise
A TRIUNE SPIRIT!
ONE SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT!
IN THE SAME WAY,
WE ALSO ARE
TRIUNE IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD IN
SPIRIT, SOUL, and FLESH
ONE SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT!
JESUS WAS BORN IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN
A TRIUNE BEING IN
SPIRIT, THE FATHER’S
SOUL, THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD, and
FLESH, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN.
ONE SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT.
ON HIS DEATH, THE FATHER’S SPIRIT LEFT JESUS AS HE CANNOT DIE.
IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH,
through death itself!
“THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, and
THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD,
INTEGRATED John13:31,32 and FROM THEN ON
THEY ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE, BUT
ONE GLORIFIED BOTH
SOUL and FLESH
TWO IN ONE FLESH BODY, ALL SPIRITUAL,
BOTH DIVINE AND MAN IN
JESUS CHRIST
THE SON OF GOD
LORD GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE!
GODMAN
Luke 24:37 37But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit. 38And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:
for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones,
as you see me to have.
40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:
and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,
and may be in his true Son.
This is the true God and life eternal.
JESUS CHRIST
Desire Truth……..see what they do here, they force our text to say what in fact it doesen’t say or even hint at, by adding their own words to the text.
CARMEL SAID
39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:
for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones,
as you see me to have.
40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.
please show me the word (NORMAL) anywhere in the text he was quoting?
It isn’t there, what Jesus actually said is ….“for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see I have”.
Jesus was obviously saying he was not a Spirit being himself. ANYONE even with the simplest unerstanding of what Jesus said and meant, should know that.
What Carmel only proves is that he does not, “truly” believe Jesus, nor what he says either.
Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene
Good Morning All,
The WORD of Life, ETERNAL LIFE , was With the Father from the beginning as God from the beginning PROMISED Eternal Life to mankind.
God Himself IS ETERNAL and by His power He can give us Eternal Life also, He IS THE SOURCE of Eternal Life, it is Him and it is with Him.
The resurrected Jesus became God’s WORD, which is God and was with God from the beginning, made true in the flesh. As Jesus became God’s WORD made true, our faith is that His WORD will be made true in us also.
Jodi
The WORD of Life, ETERNAL LIFE , was With the Father from the beginning as God from the beginning PROMISED Eternal Life to mankind.
God Himself IS ETERNAL and by His power He can give us Eternal Life also, He IS THE SOURCE of Eternal Life, it is Him and it is with Him.
The resurrected Jesus became God’s WORD, which is God and was with God from the beginning, made true in the flesh. As Jesus became God’s WORD made true, our faith is that His WORD will be made true in us also.
Me
In John 1:1
we are in parallel with Genesis 1:1
God is about to create the heavens and the earth.
The Son named “THE WORD” was with GOD and he was God.CREATION:
Everything was done by “THE WORD” and nothing that was done was done without “THE WORD”.And now why did God (the Father) choose to do all things through his Son? (creation, redemption, judgment)
That’s the big question.
The answer is that He couldn’t do it all alone.
I) Can He create the heavens and the earth ALL ALONE ?
THE ANSWER IS YES.II) CAN HE JUST REDEMPTION HUMANITY ALONE?
THE ANSWER IS NO.III) CAN HE RIGHTLY JUDGE THE WORLD ALONE?
THE ANSWER IS NOAND THEREFORE GOD WHO KNOWS ALL THINGS BEFORE THEY ARRIVED HAS CHOSEN TO GENERATE HIS SON EQUAL TO HIMSELF, REFLECTING HIS GLORY, IMPRINT OF HIS PERSON AND HAS DELIVERED EVERYTHING INTO HIS HANDS: CREATION, REDEMPTION, AND JUDGMENT .
OF COURSE, EVERYTHING HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED AND WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED IN FULL COMMUNION WITH THE FATHER.AN IMPORTANT POINT BEFORE ENDING IS KNOWN TO REDEMPTION HUMANITY, THE SON WAS NOT FORCED TO SACRIFICE HIMSELF, HE OFFERED HIMSELF TO SAVE US FROM PERIL.
👇
Titus 2:14
Who gave HIMSELF for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify himself unto a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
👇
Galatians 1:4
who gave HIMSELF for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father:🙏
Hi Gene,
You: Desire Truth……..see what they do here, they force our text to say what in fact it doesen’t say or even hint at, by adding their own words to the text.
CARMEL SAID
39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:
for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones,
as you see me to have.
40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.
Gene, I’m afraid that’s not what I posted!
Why didn’t you post the whole scripture I posted?
Here it comes read:
Luke 24:37 But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit.
ANSWER Gene, please:
WHY DID THEY SUPPOSE THAT THEY SAW A SPIRIT?
I’M WAITING!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Desire Truth
You: @ Carmel,
For curiosity sake, what do you do for a living (if retired, what did you do prior) and what faith do you most identify with?Not to sound like I am prying or to seem I am demanding of you information that I wouldn’t give.
For a living I am self employed running a home repair business, along with a side gig making custom wood pieces.
I came from a “non-denominational” (what does that really mean – who knows) church, with the last church I attended being Southern Baptist.
Me: May I ask, what made you ask me such a question?
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
Hi Gene,
You: Carmel…….You remind me of a tennis ball being bounced off walls of deception, saying I was not “quoting” the scriptures correctly is a lie, and you well know that.
I am quoting them “exactly as they are written”, in the king James bible.
Because those scriptures go against you and your false teachings, is your problem not mine, as I have said before, if you “TRULY” believed Jesus, you would believe what He said.
And I quoted “EXACTLY” what the King James bible said he said.
Me: Let’s verify who is telling lies:
You said:
Evidently you still don’t “TRULY” , believe Jesus, nor what he said (not me)…..
“the words I am telling you, are “NOT”, MY WORDS,
but the words of him that sent me”.
That alone should be enough to make it clear Jesus is “NOT” God the Father’s word.
Scriptures:
DRB Version.
Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but the Father’s who sent me.
Now to
KJV.
John14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
You: “the words I am telling you, are “NOT”, MY WORDS,
but the words of him that sent me”.
I am quoting them “exactly as they are written”, in the king James bible.
Me: IT IS QUITE CLEAR TO ME THAT YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE WORD “EXACTLY” MEANS NEVER MIND QUOTING THE SCRIPTURE!
NOW LET’S COMPARE THE TWO VERSIONS FIRST Gene,
KJB DRB. VERSION.
MY WORDS MY WORD Equal message
MY SAYINGS and MY WORDS Equal message
THE WORD THE WORD. Equal message
YOU: Because those scriptures go against you and your false teachings, is your problem not mine,
NO Gene, the KJV doesn’t go against me at all.
AS YOU CAN WELL READ BOTH VERSIONS ARE PERFECTLY THE SAME, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE FIRST TERM, WHERE
THE KJV USED THE PERSONAL PRONOUN AND THE PLURAL, WHILE
THE DRB USED THE PERSONAL PRONOUN AND THE SINGULAR.
THE KJV USED THE PLURAL SIMPLY AS IN John 6:63 JESUS USED ALSO THE PLURAL WHEN HE REFERRED TO THE SPIRIT Read:
John 6:63….. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.
Now that is precisely what I said and meant, that JESUS REFERRED TO HIS SPIRIT SINCE HE USED THE PERSONAL PRONOUN.
THUS, THOUGH THEY HAVE THE SAME MESSAGE, I PREFERRED THE DRB AS I CONSIDERED IT TO HAVE MORE CLARITY, IN RELATION TO YOUR DECEPTION I’M AFRAID.
READ NOW YOUR TWISTED VERSION AND COMPARE IT WITH BOTH VERSIONS :
YOURS KJV DRB
THE WORDS (equal message) MY WORDS MY WORD
MY WORDS and (equal message) MY SAYING MY WORDS
THE WORDS (wrong message) THE WORD THE WORD
As you can see and read the last term, WHICH IS VITAL for the TRUTH is wrong from your side, DELIBERATELY DONE TO QUENCH YOUR THIRST, HIDE THE TRUTH, AND DECEIVE OTHERS.
You: That alone should be enough to make it clear Jesus is “NOT” God the Father’s word.
Now you have a problem Gene, I’m afraid, as the scripture CONFIRMS THAT JESUS IS
“THE WORD”/SPIRIT, SPOKEN OF GOD
John 6:63….. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.
I’M AFRAID Gene THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU! WITH EVERY RESPECT!
DO EVERYBODY A FAVOUR Gene, AND PRODUCE GENUINE SCRIPTURE PLEASE. AS NO ONE TRUSTS YOU.
Now read again what I posted and accept the TRUTH for a change:
DRB. VERSION.
John14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him:
If anyone love me, he will keep MY WORD,
IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM
“MY WORD”, A PERSONAL PRONOUN, and A SINGULAR. A clear reference to “HIS PERSONAL SPIRIT”
and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and will make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not, keepeth not MY WORDS.
IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM “MY WORDS” A PERSONAL PRONOUN and A PLURAL. A clear reference to “HIS SAYINGS, HIS PREACHING, HIS GOSPEL”.
And THE WORD which you have heard, is not mine;
but the Father’s who sent me.
ATTENTION NOW Gene, IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM “THE WORD” AN ARTICLE and A SINGULAR, a clear reference to “THE SPIRIT”.
NOW READ AGAIN WHAT HE CONFIRMED:
And THE WORD which you have heard is not mine;
but the Father’s who sent me.
GOT IT Gene? THE ABOVE IS A PURE TRUTH THAT YOU ALL THE TIME DENY!
IN THE ABOVE JESUS ASSERTED THAT:
“THE WORD”/THE SPIRIT which you have heard; OBVIOUS THE FATHER’S SPIRIT, READ:
is not mine, HERE IT COMES MR. Gene:
but the Father’s who sent me!
NOW READ YOUR OWN TWISTED SCRIPTURE AGAIN:
Jesus said (not me)….. “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me.
You, Gene, USED THE SAME TERM THREE TIMES, I MEAN:
PLURAL,
A TERM NEVER USED BY JESUS AT ALL!
NO, Gene, I’M AFRAID THE ABOVE ARE YOUR TWISTED WORDS NOT JESUS’ OWN WORDS, AND
YOU SAID THEM NOT JESUS.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
God Himself IS ETERNAL and by His power He can give us Eternal Life also, He IS THE SOURCE of Eternal Life, it is Him and it is with Him.
The eternal life is Jesus Christ.
He was the first to be with God and as he is, so we will be.
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand”
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
I guess that in the same way that Moses imparted the law, Jesus imparts life. Life, Spirit, Light, and the Law come from God. But the law came through Moses and eternal life through the one that was with God in the beginning. The first-born of all creation. The one that came in the flesh.
@ Carmel,
You: “read very attentively my post, and ponder.” ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!
This is the first and only time I will say this, if you continue to treat me as an idiot because I don’t believe in a doctrine the same as you, I will ignore everything you post and there will be zero recognition of anything you respond to me with! I have dealt with the “pompous” and “arrogant” within the church and from your own words and how you speak to those who question your thoughts, there’s an air of each in your writing. Tone it down and let’s have a conversation like adults! I will not belittle you, reciprocate the same; we are all here to learn and grow in our walk and this type of spirit does not facilitate growth! IF your intent was not to be “abrasive”, I can’t read your mind, just your words!
Onto your responses, I will admit the book of John is written is a unique way, different from the others. Would I go as far as to say it’s “spiritual”, thus needing a “spiritual” mindset in order to understand? Absolutely not! When we read 20:30-31, John says why he wrote the book, it puts the context of the entire book into perspective. John was confirming to the reader Jesus IS the Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One, the Son of God; the one that was prophesied throughout the Tanakh (old testament).
You also bring up a set of verses and call them a “paradox”; if an unbeliever where to stumble on this sight, they wouldn’t see a “paradox” they would see contradiction. What you are calling a “paradox” is nothing of the sort as you are not applying these verses in the context of which they have been written. One must read above and below to have an understanding of what is really being said. What you have done is cherry picked these verses to say what you want them to say and then deceived everyone who may have read them and agreed to your paradoxical theory.
Concerning the “word of God”, you didn’t look it up? How come? I don’t read Jesus in any of these passages.
Samuel said to Saul, “Tell the servant pass on before us” (and he passed on), “but stand still first, that I may cause you to hear the word of God.”
But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,…
That same night, the word of God came to Nathan, saying,…
Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this. (Jesus speaking)
in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.
You assert Jesus is God/man, why then must you perform mental gymnastics to support that claim? Jesus never once said he was God the Son. In fact Jesus said he was the “son of man” as recorded in Matt, Mark, and Luke. In these three books everyone else (demons, Pharisees, disciples, centurion) called him “Son of God” and only once did Jesus confirm it. John is a different story, recall what was written above and why John wrote the book. What is the “son of man”? One must go way back into the old testament to discover…will anyone?
I asked what you do/did and your faith for a wider picture of who you are. Wasn’t trying to be intrusive, but also to not be presumptive.
@ Carmel,
You: “THE WORD” IN John 1:1 is not just a word but also A SPIRIT, to be precise A TRIUNE SPIRIT!
Substantiate this claim scripturally and can you do it without John’s writings? Can you substantiate this claim using the old testament? Since the new testament didn’t exist for 300-400 after Christ, the old testament was what the apostles taught from. I am a firm believer that to understand the “new” you have to understand the “old”. If the “new” is all there is for you, you will not fully understand what is being said.
We must also remember, the Scriptures were written by Jews, to Jews, and for Jews; if scriptures are confusing and difficult to understand, are you looking at scripture with a Jewish mindset?
@ Berean,
You wrote:
And now why did God (the Father) choose to do all things through his Son? (creation, redemption, judgment)
That’s the big question.
The answer is that He couldn’t do it all alone.
I) Can He create the heavens and the earth ALL ALONE ?
THE ANSWER IS YES.
II) CAN HE JUST REDEMPTION HUMANITY ALONE?
THE ANSWER IS NO.
III) CAN HE RIGHTLY JUDGE THE WORLD ALONE?
THE ANSWER IS NO
What did I just read?!?!?!? Are you saying GOD is to small to redeem humanity or judge the world? What God do you serve? My God created the universe and all that is in it, has no beginning or end, knows the actions of every person who has ever walked or will walk the face of this planet, and He needs man for what?
You: HAS CHOSEN TO GENERATE HIS SON EQUAL TO HIMSELF
I need some scripture that says Christ is equal to God! Everything Christ did was not of himself, but of the Father.
Hi DesireTruth
The problem with you Unitarians is that despite the texts and explanations provided, you continue to deny the simple basic truth of the Bible.
THIS TRUTH IS THAT GOD DOES NOT DO THINGS ALONE, HE HAS A PARTNER, AND THIS PARTNER IS HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
PAUL EXPRESSES IT CLEARLY IN 1 COR.8:6
But to us there is but ONE GOD the Father, OF WHOM ARE ALL THING, and we in him;
and ONE LORD Jesus Christ, BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, and we by him.GOD THE FATHER OF WHOM…
JESUS CHRIST BY WHOM….
WHEN YOU BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THIS, YOUR DESIRE FOR THE TRUTH WILL BE MORE AND MORE SATISFIED.
AND I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT YOU DESIRE THE TRUTH.
🙏
Desire Truth……. You said,…… “I am a firm believer that to understand the “new” you have to understand the “old”. If the “new” is all there is for you, you will not fully understand what is being said.”
That is “exactly the truth”, we can’t even begin to understand the New Testement without understanding the Old Testement. It takes both with the, “Spirit of truth” to properly understand scriptures IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours, Desire Truth. ………gene
@ Berean,
You missed my earlier post when I stated my faith, Unitarian isn’t it – Non-Denominational and Southern Baptist. What faith do you identify with?
You also say God “requires” a partner, thus making God small and incapable. This premise is neither scriptural or truthful and I vehemently reject that concept! You believe in a triune god, a doctrine I formally believed and now reject. Believing this triune doctrine clouds the truth within scripture, crippling people from the finding the actual truth contained in it.
I Cor 8:6 isn’t a partnership, it’s the solution. There are many different translations of scripture, please don’t focus on a single translation as you will be bound by that translators bias and miss something in the process. One particular translation states “from whom”, “through whom”. Everything comes from God and we have access to it through Christ.
God didn’t “need” Christ in the old testament; however, He provided a way for forgiveness and salvation to the Israelite. From creation God had a plan, a promise of a messiah written of in the old testament, and that promise is fulfilled in Christ. Who by his obedience to God has been glorified and is now seated at God’s right hand. God didn’t need a partner, we needed a savior/mediator to come before God and Christ was it.
At the end of our last post I asked for scripture to back up your statement of Christ being equal to God…do you have one?
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