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Nothing tricky about it, Adam. Jesus is included in secular historical accounts, therefore he definitely existed. Christians believe that he existed as the messiah the Jews were promised, that he taught the will of God and that his God performed many signs and wonders through him while he dwelt on the earth.
Hi Mike thanks for your replies to my posts. Yes I am not disputing his existence as a Jewish man. Regarding his Messiahship it was rejected the Jews of his time and is being debated these days. Performing signs and wonders nothing new to Hebrew scriptures when we take the examples of Moses, Elijah, Elisha and other men of God. But that can not make him Messiah.
(My intent is to show that you have NO valid reason to not accept Jesus as the messiah who was promised by God. Of course it seems you know my intent, and know I will be successful. Hence your refusal to answer simple Yes or No questions. But maybe you’ll prove me wrong. Personally I believe you’ll just keep deflecting so you don’t have to answer, but maybe…)
So it’s your rightful conclusion on me? If you want debate on Jesus’ Messiahship please come to the appropriate thread. You can find plenty of arguments on the topic.
Adam: I always wonder what is this “God created all things though him”?
Mike: Me too. What exactly does it mean that God created all things through Jesus? We’re not given any specifics, so we’re left with the knowledge that God is the one who created, and He did that through Jesus somehow. The bottom line is that God, not Jesus, is our Creator.
Thank you at least you agree with one of arguments on the NT writers who wanted involve Jesus in God’s creation.
Adam: Christianity created myths on Messiah and made him non-human and alien to us.
Mike: Do you also consider God to be a “myth” and “alien to us” because He is also “non-human”?
I think your question is not relevant to the point I raised.
Jesus Christ is Lord. So he is in charge of creation. He delegates on behalf of God.
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
Hi Proclaimer
You have to be God to:
…. uphold all things by the word of his power, (power of Christ) [Hebrews: 1: 3]
or in Colossians 1:17
…. and by him all things consist …The truth is that the Son of God inherited all the attributes of the Father (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence)
Is it hard to understand that the Son inherited ALL that the Father IS and all of his divine attributes and powers.
In any case, that’s what Hebrews 1: 3 makes me understand, to name just this one.
the Son is: the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, ….Hi Mike:
YOU : In which scripture(s) can I read about “glorified spiritual flesh”?
Carmel: YOU ARE STILL LIVING ON MILK!
Jesus Christ GODMAN!
I REPEAT MR. Mike!
YOU ARE STILL LIVING ON MILK!
Scripture:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator of God and men,
the man Christ Jesus:
The above is Gene’s speciality, but with every respect,
he is completely blocked off the truth in his carnal bind I’m afraid and you are even
worse!
THE ABOVE Mr. Mike is the clearest evidence that
JESUS POSSESSES
A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Adam. Clearly, you side with the Pharisees. Your doubts and protest are very similar it seems. Do you consider yourself a Pharisee or are you just siding with them on the issue of Jesus messiahship?
You have to be God to:
…. uphold all things by the word of his power, (power of Christ) [Hebrews: 1: 3]
or in Colossians 1:17
…. and by him all things consist …The truth is that the Son of God inherited all the attributes of the Father (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence)
Is it hard to understand that the Son inherited ALL that the Father IS and all of his divine attributes and powers.
In any case, that’s what Hebrews 1: 3 makes me understand, to name just this one.
the Son is: the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his personOthing you say here makes Jesus God. It makes him like God. The most like God, but not God.
He is the image of the invisible God. An image of God and a Son of God clearly means to any clear thinking person, that he is not God. He is not his own image. He is not his own Son.
Even children would know that because they havent been fully indoctrinated yet.
Adam. Clearly, you side with the Pharisees. Your doubts and protest are very similar it seems. Do you consider yourself a Pharisee or are you just siding with them on the issue of Jesus messiahship?
Hi Proclaimer, you made me laugh. Don’t worry I am neither Pharisee nor a Jew.
LU: You believe that the Eternal One was not always a father, right?
Right.
Psalm 2:7
NET… The king says, “I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me: ‘You are my son! This very day I have become your father!'”
NIV… I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
NLT… The king proclaims the LORD’s decree: “The LORD said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father.”
At the exact moment that God begat His first child, God became a father.
Adam: I am not disputing his existence as a Jewish man.
Great! We’re making progress. We both agree that Jesus from Nazareth existed.
Adam: Performing signs and wonders nothing new to Hebrew scriptures when we take the examples of Moses, Elijah, Elisha and other men of God.
It sounds like we agree (at least to the possibility) that God did miracles through Jesus.
Adam: But that can not make him Messiah.
Actually, the OT men you mentioned (and many others) were messiahs of God. But how many of these messiahs who were anointed by God and spoke the words of God to the people were liars? Do you know of any time that God performed miracles through a liar? I don’t.
So do you think that God performed miracles through Jesus, a man who lied about being the awaited messiah?
Adam: I think your question is not relevant to the point I raised.
It’s very relevant. You reject the idea that the prophesied messiah could have pre-existed as a spirit entity. You opine that God would not send a savior that was non-human and alien to us.
I’m simply questioning your reasoning on this matter, since God Himself is non-human and alien to us. Why can’t a God who is non-human send a savior who is also non-human? I’m just pointing out a logical fallacy to your argument.
Berean: You have to be God to:
…. uphold all things by the word of his power, (power of Christ) [Hebrews: 1: 3]
or in Colossians 1:17
…. and by him all things consist …Why? Proclaimer already addressed this issue with scripture, Berean. Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of the ENTIRE kingdom of Egypt. At his very word, men could be killed or saved. At his very word, things were bought, sold, built or destroyed.
So one could say that by the word of Joseph’s power, Egypt was upheld through the seven year famine. One could say that by Joseph, all things in Egypt were able to consist for many, many years.
And Joseph didn’t have to BE Pharaoh (or even equal to him) in order to have all that power over Egypt, because that very power was GIVEN to Joseph BY Pharaoh in the first place.
Do you understand the analogy? Jesus doesn’t have to BE God (or even equal to Him) in order to have all the power he currently has, because that very power was GIVEN to Jesus BY his and our God in the first place.
Carmel: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
THE ABOVE Mr. Mike is the clearest evidence that
JESUS POSSESSES
A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!Then your evidence is not clear at all – especially if you would have quoted the rest of the statement.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Jesus Christ, the man who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God’s purpose at his appointed time.
Can you see it now? The man who died for us is now the mediator between us and God. This tells us that he was a man WHEN he died for us… not that he’s still a man.
Acts 2:22… Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
Does the fact that Peter says Jesus WAS a man mean that Jesus is STILL a man? Of course not.
But while I have you here, notice that the scripture you posted clearly identifies “the man who gave himself as a ransom” as someone OTHER THAN “God”. And in the verse I quoted, you have the direct answer to one of the questions I’ve been asking you for a month. The answer is YES, God is the one who did the miracles THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.
Actually, the OT men you mentioned (and many others) were messiahs of God. But how many of these messiahs who were anointed by God and spoke the words of God to the people were liars? Do you know of any time that God performed miracles through a liar? I don’t.
So do you think that God performed miracles through Jesus, a man who lied about being the awaited messiah?
Hi Mike, thanks for your replies to my posts. Yes there were many anointed (messiahs ) in the Hebrew Bible but there will be only one Messiah who will be the warrior King as prophesied in the Tanakh through whom God is going to establish a Messianic rule on earth with Jerusalem as Capital. There is nothing to be taken as lie as you often quote in your posts here.
Performing miracles and healing will not make any one as Messiah who will be a warrior King as promised. So Jesus would not qualify for such post.
I’m simply questioning your reasoning on this matter, since God Himself is non-human and alien to us. Why can’t a God who is non-human send a savior who is also non-human? I’m just pointing out a logical fallacy to your argument.
Yes there is no requirement for such non-human Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible. An alien becoming human and die like a mortal can only be found in a mythological religion. If anyone wants such mythological beings he can find many in our Indian religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and other pagan religions. I need not look towards Christianity for such stories. God is not a human as per the Hebrew Bible and an immortal can not become a mortal.
Mike
You don’t understand that Paul [in Colossians who says: “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” ]
means that Christ by his divine power sustains all things in the universe. It is he who governs the laws of the universe created by his hand
“and upholding all things BY the word of HIS power,” (Hebrews 1: 3)To all…….Scripture say , sin entered in this world by “MAN” , and by “a MAN” it was “atoned for.” No where does it say , by a being “morphed” into a human body was our sins atoned for.
Jesus sure didn’t think he ever existed a real being until he was born on this earth, He clearly said He was the root and offspring of David. All the Old Testament and the NewTestament writers show him as a pure human being.The whole idea of Jesus being something other then a son of “mankind”, destroys God the Fathers, whole work “in” perfecting “man”, that was the very purpose God had in his mind before he ever created the, first man Adam, The “MAN” Jesus is the perfect “human being” God the Father was driving at for “all” human kind,
Satan has filled your minds with all kinds of “Lies” About Jesus being something completely different then the rest of his human brothers and sisters. You people can’t see, if Satan Brakes your identity with him, on a human level, he destroys you from from thinking you can be exactly like him.
But what does scripture say,
Eh 4: 13…..Till we “all” come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God , “unto a PERFECT “MAN” , unto the “MEASURE” of the “STATURE” of the “FULNESS” OF “CHRIST” .
SATAN doesn’t want anyone to even think they can actually attain that Goal , so he created the biggest lie ever fostered on humanity, the “LIE” is, Jesus is completely different then you and me. that lie cause you to move Jesus away from your own personal identity with him, as a fellow human being, that lie works on all those who are not of The truth. It turns Jesus from a man into a God or what ever, but definitely no a real human being exactly like the rest of us all. The first who God the Father “PERFECTED” from humanity.
Satans “LIE” works and is witnessed right here over ad over , every day.
peace and love to you all and yours……….gene
Hi Mike,
ME: JESUS IS THE FIRSTBORN OF LUCIFER!
IN THE BEGINNING (LUCIFER) WAS “THE WORD”
You: First you post “Satan’s Dream”, and now this crap? I am now convinced that the one you say talks to you is Satan, and not Jesus.
Mike, First and foremost, most of what I POSTED and which for you are crap are not mine, but already revealed by others in the past.
Matthew 13:52 He said unto them: Therefore every scribe instructed in the kingdom of heaven, is like to a man that is a
householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure new things and old.
YOU:Etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah for enough words to make an entire book.
Carmel, try talking less and saying more, okay?
ME: More blah blah blah, for the sake of truth!
TRUTH HURTS
Now. things which for a reason or another you cannot fathom,
ARE FOR YOU A CRAP?
GOD WHO IS UNFATHOMABLE IS ALSO A CRAP FOR YOU?
Colosians 1:15 Who is THE IMAGE of the invisible God,
THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.
The above as we all know is a reference to Jesus. But for those few who know, it is also a reference to Lucifer.
Now, Lucifer was the first creature ever created in the image of God, the first carrier of God in relation to the LIGHT/WISDOM. The first son of God, androgynous, male and female, CREATED.
THE BEGINNING! THE LIGHT BRINGER! THE MORNING STAR! THE FIRST ANGEL WHO OWNED A LUMINOUS SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL BODY. HE, PHYSICALLY, AS THE BEGINNING, WAS THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL IN HIM IN RELATION TO THE LIGHT/WISDOM.
THUS LUCIFER WAS THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE;
CREATED ALL IN HIM PHYSICALLY ANDROGYNOUS MALE AND FEMALE! believe it or not, it’s your pigeon, TRIUNE. Like all SPIRITS EMANATED from God, OF THE HOLY GHOST, THE LOVE OF GOD. The very first act which occurred in the BEGINNING, THE BIG BANG, by which act the entire infinite existence, THEN IN PITCH DARKNESS, was enlightened. THEY WERE ONLY AN ENDLESS SPIRITS ALIVE by “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man to be, ETERNAL LIFE , OF THE HOLY GHOST, THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRITS, ENGRAFTED ETERNALLY AT ALL COSTS, IN THEIR HEARTS. NEVERTHELESS, THESE ENDLESS SPIRITS IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME, WERE UNAWARE OF THEIR EXISTENCE AND OF GOD! IN THE SAME WAY THE PRE-ADAMITES, SIMPLY BEASTS, WERE. NOW IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEY WERE EMANATED FROM GOD, GOD THE FATHER INTEGRATED WITH THESE SPIRITS, AND THEY BECAME ALIVE ALSO SPIRITUALLY IN THEIR MINDS AND BECAME AWARE OF ALL THINGS, BY WHICH SPIRITS, KEEP IN MIND; LUMINOUS SPIRITS, LUCIFER WAS CREATED BY THE FATHER AS THE FIRST ANGEL. HIS JEWEL!
Lucifer was created TRIUNE in the image of God, the first carrier of God in relation to the LIGHT/WISDOM. The first son of God, androgynous, male and female! THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT; CREATED WITH A SPIRITUAL LUMINOUS BODY, MANIFESTED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME ON THIS PLANET AND IN THE ENTIRE COSMOS, BY JESUS ON MOUNT TABOR, HIDDEN FOR LUCIFER AND IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS DURING, FOR US, AN ENDLESS PROBATION PERIOD, FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR FREE WILL, AND THEIR LOYALTY TO THE MYSTERIOUS INVISIBLE GOD BY THEIR WORK IN HARMONY WITH GOD IN THE CREATION OF THE COSMOS.
NOW GOING BACK TO COLOSSIANS 1:1, LUCIFER, ON HIS CREATION UNAWARE OF, FOR THE SAKE OF HIS FREE WILL AND LOYALTY TO GOD, PHYSICALLY SPEAKING WAS EMBODIED IN
THE IMAGE of the invisible God,
THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE PRECISELY
JESUS, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN TO BE.
NOT VISIBLY BY THE SPIRITUAL REALMS DURING THE PROBATION PERIOD.
Hinted out by John the Baptist, MICHAEL, SENT BY THE FATHER, in
John1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man who is
PREFERRED BEFORE ME: FOR HE WAS BEFORE ME.
31And I knew him not:
but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33And I knew him not:
but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
NOW let’s go back to Colossians:
16 For in him were all things created (Lucifer THE FIRST EVER, THE BEGINNING,) in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.
Thus Jesus, as a spirit, “THE WORD” spoken of God, ETERNAL LIFE, LIGHT/WISDOM, THE ONLY SOURCE OF COMMUNICATION WITH GOD, AND THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES, UNLESS THEY ARE ERADICATED TOTALLY BY GOD, BY THE FIRST INTENTION OF SIN IN THEIR HEART, WHERE “THE WORD” ABIDES ETERNALLY, WHO IS BEFORE ALL, WITH RESPECT TO COLOSSIANS, WAS HIDDEN, buried, like a treasure in a field, ENGRAFTED in the heart of Lucifer, and eventually in all creatures’ HEARTS, through him in relation to
LIGHT/WISDOM. HENCE HUMANITY, LUCIFER’S ORIGINAL SPIRIT REMNANTS. The old man spirit! Well hinted out by Jesus in
Matthew 5:14 You are THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD…..
James 1:21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive
THE ENGRAFTED WORD, which is able to save your souls.
ORIGINALLY IN ALL SPIRITS EMANATED FROM GOD IN THE BEGINNING.
Thus, Jesus is both THE FIRSTBORN of every creature, NOT CREATED, HIDDEN IN LUCIFER and also THE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. OBVIOUS UNKNOWN FOR LUCIFER ON HIS CREATION.
LUCIFER and JESUS were LIKE BROTHERS, Hinted out by Jesus in
the PRODIGAL SON STORY, BUT WITH
ONE HEART. A DIVINE/CREATURE HEART, IT’S THE SAME AS WE ARE:
ONE HEART SHARED BETWEEN OUR SOUL, GOD’S, AND OUR BODY, SATAN’S ON EVE’S SIN!
SEPARATED ONLY ON THE CROSS ON THE SPLITTING OF JESUS’HEART.
Song of Solomon 8:1 Who shall give thee to me for my brother, sucking the breasts of my mother, that I may find thee without, and kiss thee,
and now no man may despise me?
IN THE BEGINNING (LUCIFER) WAS (HIDDEN)THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD. ( BOTH CREATED IN LUCIFER, AND NOT IN HIMSELF, GOD) AND THE WORD WAS GOD, (BOTH HIDDEN IN LUCIFER AND IN THE WORD, JESUS
THE ONLY HOUSE OF GOD)
MORE BLAH, BLAH TO COME
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Gene,
You: To all…….Scripture say , sin entered in this world by “MAN” , and by “a MAN” it was “atoned for.” No where does it say , by a being “morphed” into a human body was our sins atoned for.
Scripture clearly says:
Psalm 49: 7No brother can redeem,
nor shall man redeem:
he shall not give to God his ransom,
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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