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Hi Mike thanks for commenting on my post.
You: Gadam, even from Micah’s point of view (having lived long before Jesus walked the earth as a man), Jesus’ origins were from ancient times. So yes, the one who would come out of Bethlehem in the future had already been in existence from days of old.
There’s also Proverbs 8:22-31, and Proverbs 30:4 – which speaks of God’s Son long before Jesus was made flesh…
Me: What is the Jewish understanding of Micah 5:2
א וְאַתָּה בֵּית-לֶחֶם אֶפְרָתָה, צָעִיר לִהְיוֹת בְּאַלְפֵי יְהוּדָה–מִמְּךָ לִי יֵצֵא, לִהְיוֹת מוֹשֵׁל בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל; וּמוֹצָאֹתָיו מִקֶּדֶם, מִימֵי עוֹלָם.
” But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days”
Answer: The expression in the end of the verse “Yemei olam” is INCORRECTLY translated in most non-Jewish versions as “days of eternity” in order to prove that Micah speaks about the divinity of the Messiah. That’s not the case.
See for example the same use of the expression “Yemei olam” (in Malachi 3:4):
ד וְעָרְבָה, לַיהוָה, מִנְחַת יְהוּדָה, וִירוּשָׁלִָם–כִּימֵי עוֹלָם, וּכְשָׁנִים קַדְמֹנִיֹּת.
Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years.
Of course Jerusalem and Judah have not existed since the “days of eternity”!! Thus the translation must follow the logic.David Berger in “Jews and Jewish Christianity” (Ktav, 1978) p. 22 says:
“The point of the phrase is that this future ruler, who may indeed be the Messiah, will have come forth from Bethlehem because his royal origins are “of old, from days of yore,” i.e., from the old and venerable House of David, and David was born in Bethlehem. In other words, according to the most probable reading of this verse, it not only fails to say that the Messiah is everlasting, it doesn’t even say that he will be born in Bethlehem. The point is that Bethlehem will be his indirect point of origin because it was the birthplace of the father of his dynasty. Jews don’t have to insist on this last point; the Messiah may very well be born in Bethlehem. It’s just that the verse probably doesn’t say this”
Proverbs 8:22-31. Woman Wisdom personified or actual being?
22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world’s first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.
In Proverbs 8:22-31, a figure known as “Woman Wisdom” is described as being present when God was creating the world. Obviously, “Woman Wisdom” serves as a great personification to teach about the importance of learning Wisdom for the purpose of fearing God, but did some early Jewish sects believe in an actual divine being known as “Woman Wisdom” — possibly God’s wife? What piques my curiosity is the reference to “I was beside him, like a master worker.” Much later during Hellenistic times, there was a Jewish-Christian concept of “Sophia” (Greek for Wisdom) being God’s wife. Is this concept traced back to Proverbs 8:22-31?
Answer: The biblical commentator Rashi begins Proverbs 8 by explaining that the word “chochma”/”wisdom” in verse 1, “Will not wisdom call out, and understanding give forth its voice?” is referring to the Torah:
Will not wisdom call out: Does not the Torah announce for you the things mentioned in this section?
All the statements are made by the personified Torah, and in fact, the Torah makes a statement in verse 31 which Rashi explains as“[having] my delights: I waited until the generation of the desert came and accepted me”.
So no Jesus as God’s son here as you are forcing the texts…
Is Jesus the son that is referred to in Proverbs 30:4?
Answer: In an attempt to prove the divine origin of Jesus, Christian theologians have pointed to this proverb as a prooftext for their claim. However, an examination of what the text actually says will dispel any attempt at such a forced interpretation.
After informing us that he does not have all the wisdom and understanding that he should possess, Agur, the son of Jakeh, poses a series of rhetorical Questions, the Answers to which he realizes all men who seek knowledge should possess:
Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? (Proverbs 30:4)
Knowing the Answers to these Questions is to know the fundamentals of all knowledge.
The Answer to the Question “What is his name?” is given in the Scriptures, where we are informed that only God, the creator of heaven and earth, is in complete control of the forces of nature. Following this Question a second Question is asked: “What is his son’s name?” As the first Question is readily Answered through a reading of the Scriptures, the source of all true knowledge, so, too, the second Question is to be Answered by studying the same source. We thus obtain the Answer by studying such verses as Exodus 4:22: “Israel is My son, my firstborn”; Deuteronomy 14:1: “You are the children of the Lord your God”; and Hosea 2:1: “It will be said to them: ‘You are the children of the living God.'” Consequently, it is Israel that is the name of His son, His firstborn. True, we find elsewhere in the Bible that David and Solomon stand in a filial relationship with God (Psalms 89:27-28, 1 Chronicles 22:10, 28:6). Indeed, this will also be true of the future Messiah. But the right to this title is due, in the final analysis, to the fact that they are the representatives or personifications of Israel as a whole. Hence, it is Israel that is the sole bearer of the august title of the “son” or “firstborn” of God.
Christian theology may argue that any reference to Israel’s relationship with God only points to an allegedly greater relationship between God and Jesus, but this argument remains unproved, having no bases in the Jewish Scriptures. It is an argument based on misguided motives, trying to prove the preconceived by forced interpretation. Only in a figurative sense will the future Messiah, when the calms, enter into the “sonship” of God, a position he will share with all of God’s chosen servants.
Hope this will answer your queries….
Hi All, I am just quoting the old post from Thinker here to show that how the NT writers created mess for Christianity.
“To All,
Why is it that anti-trinitarians do not run to defend the purity of Christ’s person? Not one unitarian here cares that his Christology and his hamartiology compromises the simple truth that Christ was a lamb WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT. I have pointed out several times that Christ is a lamb without blemish and without spot and I did not get so much as one post saying “Good point thinker”.I’ll tell you why. It is because unitarians want a savior that is in their own image. But God deemed it fitting that our high priest be without weakness,
Quote
For such a high priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners….For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever (Heb. 7:26, 28)
God said that it was “fitting” that our high priest be holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from us. But the unitarian says “No” to this. He says that it was fitting that our high priest be like us in every way. He says, “Jesus had to have sinful desires like us or we do not want Him”.God also said that Christ was appointed high priest by oath. This means that Christ had no weakness. But the unitarian cries “foul” and says, “If Jesus didn’t have weakness then he had an advantage over us”.
This kind of reasoning is so pathetic! Christ’s “advantage” was not over us but was for our benefit. It is a good thing for Kerwin, Nick, and Marty that ALL blasphemies against the Son are forgiveable (Matthew 12:32).
thinker”
I could not come across even one thread on this Heaven net that could end these arguments on Jesus. The reasons are well know to us that the Christology of NT writers is diversity and not unity on Jesus. The result is confusion.
LU: The Father through the Son, i.e. both.
It took both to complete the creation therefore, one cannot be considered the creator and the other not the creator.
Jesus says it was the Father. Jesus’ apostles say it was the Father. And while the KJV uses the word “creator” 5 times…
… there is no instance of “creators”…
You are free to believe that we have two different Gods who are our Creators. As for me, I will stick to the scriptures.
Carmel: YOU: No, we are not born as “spiritual sons of God”.
John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man,
but born of God.
ME: Mike God is a SPIRIT BEING!If we are born of A SPIRIT BEING
WE ARE BORN SPIRITUAL BEINGS/SONS!
Read it again. John said Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God. That will be after the resurrection… not now. For that, we must be born again of water and spirit – not of flesh as we are now. In the meantime, we are to live AS IF we are currently opposed to the flesh and are already spiritual sons of God, but actually BECOMING spiritual sons of God will be a later event for those deemed worthy.
Carmel, is it said in scripture that anyone will become a BROTHER of God?
gadam: “The point of the phrase is that this future ruler, who may indeed be the Messiah, will have come forth from Bethlehem because his royal origins are “of old, from days of yore,” i.e., from the old and venerable House of David, and David was born in Bethlehem.”
Why would the people you quoted add the word “royal” to the scripture? God spoke (through Micah) about one who would come in the future, but whose origins were from ancient times. Not “royal origins”. Plus, the House of David was still active when Micah prophesied… not something “of old, from days of yore”.
I find your argument uncompelling and biased – as if written by someone who was purposely bending over backwards to try to explain away a scripture which, taken at face value, clearly speaks of a coming one who had already been in existence for a very long time.
I find the arguments concerning Proverbs equally uncompelling. I don’t find it feasible that the “son” mentioned in 30:4 was “Israel”. Why not “David”? Why not “Solomon”? Why not “JESUS”? The person you quoted simply searched to find instances of someone being called God’s son in the OT, and said, “Well, my personal bias is that Jesus is nothing special, therefore the ‘son’ spoken of in 30:4 must be Israel – because I don’t want it to be Jesus”.
And as for wisdom being God’s wife or literal wisdom… the former is unscriptural heresy, and the latter implies that God lacked wisdom in the beginning, and had to create it. Knowing that Jesus is called “the wisdom of God”, and that God created all things through Jesus, His firstborn creation, Prov 8 makes perfect sense.
But how does one argue these points to someone who rejects the NT – and bends over backwards to make sure none of the OT verses are taken at face value?
Hi Mike,
Ecc 12:1 – Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, ‘I have no pleasure in them.’
Father, Son and Spirit, one God in the fullest sense. More than one person, together as God created the universe.
Mike, where do you see it written that Jesus is the wisdom of God at? And where does any scripture say Jesus was alive, before he was born on this earth either. There are certainly scriptures predicting his birth on this earth, in the Hebrew text, but none saying he was alive before his birth, nor any activity of him found, in any scripture before his birth on this earth either, if you have found some please post them brother. I don’t mean scriptures where it can be “assumed” as such, but scriptures that actually and specifically say that, especially in our original Hebrew Scriptural text, which have been far less tampered with then the Greek Trinitarian, Catholic texts were.
I believe like Paul said, basically if it is not backed up by the original Hebrew text, it is highly suspect. IMOpeace and love to you and yours…………gene
Hi Mike,
You: Why would the people you quoted add the word “royal” to the scripture? God spoke (through Micah) about one who would come in the future, but whose origins were from ancient times. Not “royal origins”. Plus, the House of David was still active when Micah prophesied… not something “of old, from days of yore.
Me: Because Micah was talking about a ruler not any godly being as the NT writers and Christianity imagined. There is no support for the so called Messiah whose origins you claim are from eternity and was first created by God. Hebrew Messiah will be a normal human being whose ancestry is tied to David not any god or spirit being.
The Messiah has to be the seed of David but not any supernatural godly being as the NT writers and Christianity invented;
1 Ch 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go [to be] with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
1Ch 17:12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
1Ch 17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took [it] from [him] that was before thee
Psalm 132:11 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; he will not turn from it: “I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.
Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: The Lord our Righteousness.
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.Hope this will resolve your problem.
Gene: Mike, where do you see it written that Jesus is the wisdom of God at?
1 Corinthians 1:22-24
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Gene: And where does any scripture say Jesus was alive, before he was born on this earth either.
Didn’t we just go through this? I showed you John 8:58, where Jesus said he existed before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, right? You didn’t respond. Why not? Why would you ignore the answer to this very question – just to ask the same question 2 weeks later? 🤔
LU: Hi Mike,
Ecc 12:1 – Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, ‘I have no pleasure in them.’
Father, Son and Spirit, one God in the fullest sense. More than one person, together as God created the universe.
I led you right to that, didn’t I? 😉 Why do you think the YLT translated it as plural? Why do none of the other English translations render it that way? Now you have two choices: You can claim one unique and abnormal translation of one Bible verse by one single translator as a victory of some sorts, or you can do a little digging. Is the plural translation in the YLT legit? A typo? A misunderstanding of the Hebrew language? Does Ecclesiastes as a whole give hints that there are two Gods and two Creators? Later in that same chapter we read…
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Having heard everything, I have reached this conclusion: Fear God and keep his commandments because this is the whole duty of man.
Not “fear Gods” and keep “their” commandments? Hmm… Yeah, you might want to do a little more digging. I’d seriously be interested in hearing your defense of the YLT’s plural versus the singular that every other Bible has.
gadam: Micah was talking about a ruler not any godly being as the NT writers and Christianity imagined.
God was indeed talking (through Micah) about a forthcoming ruler. You offer no evidence that this ruler wasn’t a godly being – or that the NT writers imagined anything at all. You offer only your own baseless claims of these things. Nor have you addressed my earlier point that calling the House of David something “from days of old” WHILE the House of David was still ruling Judah would have been a nonsensical thing for God (or Micah) to do.
gadam: There is no support for the so called Messiah whose origins you claim are from eternity and was first created by God.
I don’t claim Jesus’ origins are from eternity, nor does any Bible scripture – OT or NT – claim such a thing. But yes, as God’s firstborn Son, brought forth as the first of God’s works (Prov 22), the beginning of the creation by God (Rev 3:14), and the firstborn of every CREATURE (Col 1:15), the Bible indeed says Jesus was the first thing ever created by God.
gadam: Hebrew Messiah will be a normal human being whose ancestry is tied to David not any god or spirit being.
Even IF the Messiah was still forthcoming, there is absolutely nothing in the OT that says what you claim. God can make children of Abraham from stones, so your forthcoming Messiah could have pre-existed as a rock before God causes him to be born of a descendent of David… if that’s the way God chooses to do it. Or he could already exist as an eagle right now, that God will someday cause to be born of a human woman. Or… he could already be existing in heaven at this very moment, at the very right hand of God right now, and in a 1000 years God will send him down from heaven to be born of a human woman to be your Messiah.
Do you understand these things, gadam? You boldly claiming that your coming Messiah MUST BE according to certain parameters that you’ve devised on your own are meaningless to God.
gadam, do you deny the entire NT – including the direct quotes of Jesus?
Mike,
The plural is legit as per the Hebrew word, why most translators didn’t translate it as plural, I can’t say.
Btw, the creators are together as the one God in the fullest sense, different persons not different gods.
That “p” in “mpc” stands for plural.
Gill’s Exposition:
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth,…. Or “Creators” (b); as “Makers”, Job 35:10; for more than one were concerned, as in the creation of all things in general, so of man in particular, Genesis 1:26; and these are neither more nor fewer than three; and are Father, Son, Spirit; the one God that has created men,
Mike,
The plural is legit as per the Hebrew word, why most translators didn’t translate it as plural, I can’t say.
Btw, the creators are together as the one God in the fullest sense, different persons not different gods.
The Trinity Doctrine has well been put to bed in these forums.
Your argument is the same except there is one less member of the God substance entity.
Just look to the debunking of the Trinity Doctrine and try and come up with something new that hasn’t been debunked yet. Otherwise you are promoting debunked ideas which no one will take seriously.
Hi Mike,
YOU:Read it again. John said Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God.
YES Mike, definitely
John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive Him,
to those who believed in His name,
Me ATTENTION Mike please, I repeat:
Immediately WHILE STILL ON EARTH,
to all who did receive Him,
to those who believe in His name,
WHILE THEY ARE STILL ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST:
LIVING AS SPIRITUAL CHILDREN IN CHRIST, and DEAD AS CARNAL CHILDREN OF THE WORLD. NOT OF THE WORLD.
He gave the right to become children of God—
THERE AND THEN while on earth!!!
Romans: THERE is now, therefore, no CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not according to the flesh.
2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the
law of sin and of death.
SIN and DEATH are NOT APPLICABLE FOR THOSE WHO LIVE SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST,
DESPITE WE DIE ON EARTH!
Now read hereunder:
John 11:26 And every one that liveth, (WHILE ON EARTH)
and believeth in me, ( TO THE EXTENT THAT HE LIVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST)
shall not die FOREVER……
NOT EVEN WHEN HE DIES PHYSICALLY AS A HUMAN, LIKE JESUS DID, for the simple reason that he would be already dead in his flesh through his spiritual life in Christ while on earth, as a spiritual person.
Thus already spiritual in the truth, ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD ON EARTH, He only has one task to go through;
DEATH! BUT THAT’S ONLY ACCORDING TO THE WORLD!
IN THE TRUTH IT’S NOT DEATH AT ALL BUT LIFE AND CONTINUE
LIVING THE SPIRITUAL LIFE AS CHILDREN OF GOD, IN HEAVEN, IN FACT
NOT EVEN JUDGED!!!
OBVIOUS, SIMPLY AS WE ALREADY JUDGED OURSELVES AS HUMANS IN FLESH, DESTROYED OUR FLESH BODY WHILE ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST.
Now read and perceive the truth;
John5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word,
and believeth him that sent me,
hath life everlasting;(WHILE ON EARTH)
and cometh not into judgment,
but is passed from death to life.
Mike I am repeating what I said :
I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE IN THE POSITION TO PERCEIVE
THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS ESTABLISHED BY JESUS ON EARTH!
IT’S ALL HEREUNDER:
Luke 13:32And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow,
and the third day I am consummated.
In the above Jesus confirms that He is the only human being who became
SPIRITUAL ONE SUBSTANCE IN THE HOLY GHOST, WHILE HE IS ALSO IN
HIS FLESH PERFECT BODY!
READY TO BE SACRIFICED AS THE PERFECT RANSOM
A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT!
33Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following,
because it cannot be that a prophet perish, (NOTICE, NOT DIE, PERISHES)
out of JERUSALEM.
Notice OUT OF JERUSALEM! WHAT ACTUALLY JESUS REFERRED TO?
Mike, where did Jesus die, inside or outside JERUSALEM???
DEFINITELY OUTSIDE! NO?
ANSWER: WHAT ACTUALLY JESUS MEANT IF HE, A PROPHET,
“PERISHED” OUTSIDE JERUSALEM?
YOU:Carmel, is it said in scripture that anyone will become a BROTHER of God?
John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.
But go to my brethren, and say to them:
ME: Mike, In the above, JESUS, the second Adam, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, asserted that the entire human race resurrected all embodied in Him,
ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS. as much as the entire human race were in Adam on his creation!
Thus we are all brothers of Jesus! NOT YET PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT. Confirmed by Jesus:
Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.
NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE GLORY OF MY FATHER,
Then He said:
But go to my brethren, and say to them:
I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.
OK? Mike, Jesus in the above also confirmed that
HE EVENTUALLY, THAT SAME EVENING, ASCENDS
BOTH TO THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS, and
OUR FATHER OF ALL FLESH, THE HUMAN RACE, AND ALSO
TO THE GLORY OF HIS GOD IN HEAVEN, and
TO THE GLORY OF OUR GOD ON EARTH!
Consequently, the human race as much as they are
BROTHERS OF JESUS IN FLESH, they are also
BROTHERS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS,
GODMAN!
SIMPLY AS “THE WORD” JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, and
THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE, GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS,
GODMAN, John13:31,32 ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE, BUT UNIFIED
TWO IN ONE FLESH
GOD OF ALL FLESH IN
JESUS CHRIST
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
You: Even IF the Messiah was still forthcoming, there is absolutely nothing in the OT that says what you claim. God can make children of Abraham from stones, so your forthcoming Messiah could have pre-existed as a rock before God causes him to be born of a descendent of David… if that’s the way God chooses to do it. Or he could already exist as an eagle right now, that God will someday cause to be born of a human woman. Or… he could already be existing in heaven at this very moment, at the very right hand of God right now, and in a 1000 years God will send him down from heaven to be born of a human woman to be your Messiah.
Me: Your post made me laugh. Yes Christianity can make any thing possible as it had already invented the same in its NT. I have quoted number of verses from Hebrew Bible for proving that Messiah has to be a normal human being and will be the seed of David. So that will end our arguments on the origins of Messiah. In fact NT writers searched the Hebrew Bible to find the bits and parts to suit their ideology on Jesus but the Jews of Jesus’ time rejected Christian Messiah. Nothing changed till date for God’s people. Virgin birth, preexistence, first creation, Binity, Trinity, Arianism, Unitarianism etc are all the results of the seeds sown by these writers of NT. What else we can expect from such writings….. a complete havoc and confusion which is clearly visible on this Forum.
Thanks for nice chat…..Adam
For Mikeboll64….
Invitation to participate in the debate on the following threads as we are deviating from the topic John 1:1;
- Christian writers Misquoting Texts – What does Hebrew Bible really say?
- Was Jesus Jewish Messiah – What does the Hebrew Bible really say?
- Question of Parousia of Jesus – how Christianity manage the dilemma?
LU: That “p” in “mpc” stands for plural.
And the “s” in the “ms” that follows stands for singular. Same with Job. As for “god” being in the plural form, YHVH Himself refers to Satan, Dagon, Asteroth, Baal, etc. with the plural “elohim”. It’s called the “plural of majesty” or “plural of intensity” – and the Hebrew language uses it a lot. For example, the word “Behemoth” is simply the plural form of “beast”. We use the context and the pronouns/verbs to help determine if the plural is being used to intensify the noun, or as a real plural describing more than one thing. For example, in Gen 1:26 that you mentioned, we know from the plural form of verbs used that it is God talking to those who are not God – because the plural of majesty doesn’t apply to verbs or pronouns. So in your view of one God made of two people, Gen 1:26 is that one binity God talking to OTHER people who are not him/them.
So no, we still have only one God and one Creator – unless you want to include ALL of those to whom God said, “Let us make man in our image” as co-creators with God. Plus, your reasoning fails when you want to proclaim one God/two persons, but then ascribe to that ONE God the PLURAL term “creators”. Understand? If you want to refer to Father and Son as two “creators”, then you need also refer to them as two “Gods”. If, on the other hand, you prefer the “one God/two persons” theory, then you’re also stuck with “one Creator/two persons”. Unless you’re willing to state for the record that God is the Creators. 😉
Anyway, if I get time I’ll do a little more digging on the plural “creators” in the YLT. It’s interesting to me that the participle is masculine plural, but the suffix is masculine singular. And I don’t know enough about the Hebrew language to say what any of that means, but even without the singular suffix, the plural part could just be another case of the plural of intensity, like the plural elohim and behemoth.
Carmel: ATTENTION Mike please, I repeat:
Immediately WHILE STILL ON EARTH,
to all who did receive Him,to those who believe in His name,
WHILE THEY ARE STILL ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST:
LIVING AS SPIRITUAL CHILDREN IN CHRIST, and DEAD AS CARNAL CHILDREN OF THE WORLD. NOT OF THE WORLD.
I understood your point the first time, and tried to show you how it was wrong. Here…
John 3:5-7
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’”
See it now? Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God… but not in our flesh bodies. Flesh is born of flesh – not of spirit. We must be born again of spirit to achieve “spiritual children of God”. That will come after the resurrection – not while any of us are still flesh entities. Flesh cannot see, inherit, or enter the kingdom of God. And only those who enter God’s kingdom will be His spiritual children.
There will still be flesh children of God after the resurrection, dwelling on the new earth. Jesus gave all of us the RIGHT to be accepted into the kingdom of God as spiritual children – but only a few will achieve that goal. Most of us who are resurrected to everlasting life (and not the second death) will live that life out as flesh children of God on the new earth. Very few will rule with God and Jesus as spiritual sons from the new heaven.
Carmel, will anybody become a BROTHER to God?
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