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Hi Berean,
You said:
Amen
Very interesting Lu
May God continue to guide youKind of you, Berean, thanks I will need it!
Many blessings,
LU
Proclaimer……IF God “made” “ALL THINGS ” , what did Jesus Make?
Please tell me what part did Jesus play? Seeing God made it all?
Are you saying God Can do nothing without Jesus? I thought it was Jesus who said he could do ‘”NOTHING ” of himself.
Tell me what does this scripture mean to you?
Isa 42:5….this says God the LORD, That created the heavens and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it, he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 44:24….. This says the LORD, your redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am LORD “THAT MAKES “ALL THINGS’’, that stretches forth the heavens “ALONE ” ; that spreads abroad the earth “BY MSELF” ;
Prclaimer …. where does he say he does everything through or by Jesus at here. If God the Father says he does this “alone and by himself” , what gives you or anyone else the right to deny his own words .
Read the rest of what God does by himself. He also said that “He gives his glory to “NO ONE ELSE ” .
Procalimer, forcing the text to say what it is not actually saying which contradicts what the original Hebrew text say, is bad form .
The Greek word “dia” is a big trip word for you all. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
The Greek word “dia” is a big trip word for you all. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
Gene
Read
1:16 For by(en) him(Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by(dia) him, and for(eis) him:
di autou = BY HIM
eiV auton =FOR HIM
Hi Gene,
YOU:
Proclaimer……IF God “made” “ALL THINGS ” , what did Jesus Make?
Please tell me what part did Jesus PLAY?
Seeing God made it all?
Proverbs 8:30 I was with him FORMING
ALL THINGS:
and was delighted every day,
PLAYING before him at all times;
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Please tell me what part did Jesus play? Seeing God made it all?
Are you saying God Can do nothing without Jesus? I thought it was Jesus who said he could do ‘”NOTHING ” of himself.
Tell me what does this scripture mean to you?
Isa 42:5….this says God the LORD, That created the heavens and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it, he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 44:24….. This says the LORD, your redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am LORD “THAT MAKES “ALL THINGS’’, that stretches forth the heavens “ALONE ” ; that spreads abroad the earth “BY MSELF” ;
Prclaimer …. where does he say he does everything through or by Jesus at here. If God the Father says he does this “alone and by himself” , what gives you or anyone else the right to deny his own words .
Read the rest of what God does by himself. He also said that “He gives his glory to “NO ONE ELSE ” .
Hi brother Gene, the above post of yours is more than sufficient for negating mythological views of New Testament writers. Nothing changed here for the past 12 years on Heaven Net. Everyone is sticking to his or her own views.
Gadam
If you don’t believe the NEW TESTAMENT, IT IS A DAMAGE TO YOU.
DON’T TRY TO BORE THOSE WHO BELIEVE IT. IT DOESN’T HELP YOU.Gene: Mike….Even if you were to render it as present tense , it still could be understood as Jesus exists presently, (in importance ), before Abraham did or does, right?
Gene, look at the actual Greek words again…
said unto them Jesus truly truly say I to you before Abraham came into existence I exist
The words “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE” make it very clear that Jesus wasn’t talking about being more “important” than Abraham. He is clearly saying that he was existing before Abraham came into existence.
gadam 123: The writer of Fourth Gospel had put words into Jesus mouth to fulfill his Christology stating that Jesus was preexisting before his birth as human being. He was the ‘word’ that was with God in the beginning and was somehow involved in God’s creation. Such concepts are not available in Hebrew scriptures unless we force them and take them out of their original context.
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
Gadam, even from Micah’s point of view (having lived long before Jesus walked the earth as a man), Jesus’ origins were from ancient times. So yes, the one who would come out of Bethlehem in the future had already been in existence from days of old.
There’s also Proverbs 8:22-31, and Proverbs 30:4 – which speaks of God’s Son long before Jesus was made flesh…
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!
And of course there are Jesus’ own teachings (“I am the bread that came down from heaven”, “Father, glorify me now with the glory I had in your presence before the world began”, etc.)
LU: Here is your “peer-review:”
According to the NET Bible notes:
sn You founded the earth…your years will never run out. In its original setting Ps 102:25-27 refers to the work of God in creation, but here in Hebrews 1:10-12 the writer employs it in reference to Christ, the Lord, making a strong argument for the essential deity of the Son.
You do know that the NET Bible was produced by 25 Trinitarian scholars, right? 😉 Their notes are a great wealth of fantastic information, and I thank God for them. But in John 1:1, after pointing out that “and the Word was a god” is the most natural translation (by excluding the Colwell’s Rule excuse to which most Trinitarians appeal), they go on and translate as “and the Word was fully God” anyway. So yeah, you have to use discernment to know when they are telling it like it is, and when they are letting their Trinitarian bias take over. I mean, the word “fully” isn’t even in John 1:1, right? 😊
That being said, it seems that both you and the NET scholars have a dilemma to solve: Why would the writer of Hebrews clearly identify “God” as the creator – TO THE EXCLUSION OF THE SON who he names as someone other than “God”, and then turn around and identify the Son as the creator – TO THE EXCLUSION OF THE FATHER to whom he attributes the words in verse 10?
Who actually did the creative work? The Father (verse 2)? Or the Son (verse 10)?
Now there is a 3rd possibility… Since the writer doesn’t explicitly say that the words in verse 10 are said by God about the Son (as he does in many other verses), it could be that verse 10 is just the writer talking ABOUT God creating – like he did in verse 2. After all, God is the subject throughout (God spoke through prophets, God spoke through Son, God created, God said x about angels, God said x about Son, God created (second mention), God said x about Son).
As a bonus, accepting that 3rd possibility not only aligns with the many other scriptures that say God created (while simultaneously identifying the Son as someone other than the God who created – including Jesus’ own words in Mark), it also relieves you from the headache of trying to imagine that the speaker in Psalm 102 was the Father, praying to the Son who created the heavens and the earth, for relief of his tortured soul.
Mike: First of all, our hope is to become spiritual children of God.
Carmel: NOT QUITE RIGHT:
WE ARE ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD! IN FACT, THAT PASSAGE CLEARLY SAYSRomans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also;
HEIRS INDEED OF GOD!No, we are not born as “spiritual sons of God”.
John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.
These are the ones Paul is talking about in Romans. Believing in Jesus doesn’t MAKE us spiritual sons of God, but is one step on the path to BECOMING that. Paul is talking about the future things that believers who are judged and found worthy of everlasting life will inherit from God.
1 Corinthians 2:9
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—
We have not seen, heard, or received these things yet… nor had the people to whom Paul was writing.
But you’re hovering around a great point without tackling it. Are we to become SONS of God? Or BROTHERS of God? Which does the Bible teach?
Hi Gene,
YOU: Are you saying God Can do nothing without Jesus? I thought it was Jesus who said he could do ‘”NOTHING ” of himself.
ME: PRECISELY Gene! As Jesus as a SPIRIT/MEDIATOR, simply meant that He is between God and every creature! PRECISELY IN THEIR HEART!
SIMPLY A SERVANT
SERVING BOTH GOD AND CREATURES AS
“THE WORD” OF GOD, THE ONLY ABODE OF GOD, AND ETERNAL LIFE!
WITHOUT JESUS’SPIRIT IN EVERY CREATURES’ HEART GOD WOULD NEVER BE IN A POSITION TO ABIDE IN HIS CREATURES, WITHOUT ERADICATES THEM IMMEDIATELY ON THE LEAST SPECK OF EVIL INTENTION IN THEIR HEART.
THAT ALSO MEANS THAT CREATURES ARE WITHOUT A FREE WILL!
NEVER MIND, LUCIFER BECAME THE DIRECT ENEMY OF GOD.
ASSERTED HEREUNDER:
Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin. (SATAN)
35Now the servant (SATAN) abideth not in the house for ever; but the son (JESUS)abideth for ever. 36If therefore the son shall make you free,
you shall be free indeed.
JESUS AS A SPIRIT, “THE WORD” FROM HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS, OFFICIALLY BECAME JUSTIFIED IN ALL HEARTS AT ALL COSTS, NO MATTER WHOM AND WHAT. Luke 17:20-37
SATAN, FROM JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS, REALIZED AND ACCEPTED THE TRUTH, THAT HE WAS NOT AUTONOMOUS AFTER ALL. AS GOD, THE SOURCE, THROUGH JESUS COULD LIVE IN ALL KINDS OE EVIL CREATURES, EVEN IN SATAN HIMSELF!
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
NO GOD NO JESUS
NO JESUS NO GOD.
HEBREWS 4:12For THE WORD of God is LIVING and EFFECTUAL,
and more piercing than any TWO-EDGED sword;
and reaching unto THE DIVISION OF THE SOUL AND THE SPIRIT,….
The above is related to the spiritual process within humans. Where Jesus, as a spirit, is both between God and the SOUL, and between Satan and the SOUL. For the simple reason that Jesus as a spirit THE LIFE SOURCE,
SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, is
BOTH IN SATAN’S HEART and IN THE HUMAN HEART.
A PLACE WHERE GOD COULD NEVER ABIDE DIRECTLY!
Now read hereunder:
Proverbs 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways,
before he made anything from the beginning.
23I was set up FROM ETERNITY, and of old before the earth was made.
24The depths were not as yet, and I WAS ALREADY CONCEIVED. Neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:
25The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established:
before the hills I was brought forth:
26He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens,
I WAS PRESENT:
when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths:
28When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters:
29When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth;
30I was with him FORMING AL THINGS:
and was delighted every day, playing before him AT ALL TIMES;
31Playing in the world:
and my delights were to be with the children of men.
OBVIOUS WHERE ELSE IF NOT IN THEIR HEART!
32Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep MY WAYS.
Gene, JESUS IS THE WAY!
33Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not.
34Blessed is the man that heareth me,(WITHIN HIS HEART/SOUL) and that watcheth daily at MY GATES, and waiteth at the posts of MY DOORS.
Gene read what Jesus said:
John10:7…..“I tell you the truth, I AM THE GATE for the sheep.
9 I AM THE DOOR. By me, if any man enter in, he shall BE SAVED: ….
35He that shall find ME, shall find LIFE, and shall have SALVATION from the Lord:
36But he that shall sin against ME, shall hurt his own SOUL. All that hate me love death.
Isaiah 42:1BEHOLD my SERVANT, I will uphold him: my elect,
Gene without that SERVANT GOD COULD NEVER CREATE!
NO GOD NO JESUS
NO JESUS NO GOD.Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike…..Greek word (pro)
a primary preposition “fore”, that is, in front of, prior (figuratively) SUPERIOR to. In compounds it retains the same significance:- “above” , ago, “before”, or ever.
The overall meaning in the text is Jesus Christ is SUPERIOR, OR “MORE IMPORTANT” , to those people, then Abraham was or is. It was not in reference to his age at all, to me.
peace and love to you and yours…….gene
Carmel……You are without a doubt the most corrupter of scriptures then anyone here or for that matter was ever here. The video, What Mike posted about you is something you should really consider. IMO
Carmel I may hate what you preach, but remember I don’t hate you.
peace and love to you and yours……..gene
Gene
You
The Greek word “dia” is a big trip word for you all. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
Gene
Read
1:16 For by(en) him(Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by(dia) him, and for(eis) him:
di autou = BY HIM
eiV auton =FOR HIMHiGene,
Carmel……You are without a doubt the most corrupter of scriptures then anyone here or for that matter was ever here.
THE ONLY THING YOU ARE GOOD FOR Gene, IS
BLA, BLA, and BLA!!!
PROVE IT!!!!
TILL THEN
MIND STANDS!
Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy to dogs;
neither cast ye your pearls before swine,
lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Gene: Mike…..Greek word (pro)
a primary preposition “fore”, that is, in front of, prior (figuratively) SUPERIOR to. In compounds it retains the same significance:- “above” , ago, “before”, or ever.
The overall meaning in the text is Jesus Christ is SUPERIOR, OR “MORE IMPORTANT” , to those people, then Abraham was or is. It was not in reference to his age at all, to me.
Hi Gene, notice how one of the definitions you listed above is “prior to”. I understand that you highlight the figurative use of someone being superior to another. We can do that in English too. I can say that Abraham Lincoln comes BEFORE George Washington if the context supports that I’m talking about U.S. Presidents in order of how much I like them. But look at the context of the question Jesus was answering…
John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
You can see right there that the context wasn’t about whether or not Jesus was superior to Abraham. The context was about Jesus not having even been alive long enough to have seen Abraham. Do you understand that? They are explicitly challenging the AGE of Jesus, claiming he is too young to have ever seen or talked to Abraham.
The other thing you neglect is the Greek word “ginomai” in Jesus’ response – which specifically refers to someone coming into existence.
ginomai
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
So not only is it clear from the Jews’ question that they were talking about how long Jesus had been in existence, it is also clear from Jesus’ answer to them…
John 8:58 “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham came into existence, I exist!”
Do you see the red words “came into existence”? That is the Greek word “ginomai”, and it is right there in the Greek text. So Jesus also made it clear that HE was talking about how long he had been in existence.
You want to read it as, “Before Abraham, I am”… as in, “I am superior to Abraham”. But if you include the word “ginomai”, you get, “I am superior to Abraham came into being.”
You see it now? You’ve got to deal with that word “ginomai” somehow. It’s there in the text, and you can’t ignore it. You can’t logically claim that Jesus was saying he was superior to Abraham’s birth, right? Yet Abraham’s birth is very much a part of Jesus’ answer.
It’s not, “Before Abraham, I am”, like you imagine it… it’s , “Before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE I am/exist/have existed”.
Back to the U.S. Presidents… If I said, “Before Washington, Lincoln is”, then I could be talking about Lincoln being superior to Washington. BUT… if I say, “Before Washington CAME INTO EXISTENCE, Lincoln is”, then I’m talking gibberish – because it’s clear from the context that I’m talking about when each of them EXISTED.
So first you have the Jews clearly claiming that Jesus couldn’t have seen Abraham because he hasn’t been IN EXISTENCE long enough. And then you have Jesus directly addressing their claim by saying that before Abraham even came into existence, he had already been in existence.
Cheers
You asked:
Who actually did the creative work?
The Father through the Son, i.e. both.
It took both to complete the creation therefore, one cannot be considered the creator and the other not the creator.
Hi Mike,
YOU:No, we are not born as “spiritual sons of God”.
John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man,
but born of God.
ME: Mike God is a SPIRIT BEING!
If we are born of A SPIRIT BEING
WE ARE BORN SPIRITUAL BEINGS/SONS!
Romans: THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not according to the flesh.
2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh;
God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh;
4That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit. 6For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace. 7Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be
. 8And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God.
9But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you,
the body indeed is dead,
because of sin;
but the spirit liveth, because of justification.
I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE IN THE POSITION TO PERCEIVE
THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS ESTABLISHED BY JESUS ON EARTH!
IT’S ALL HEREUNDER:
Luke 13:32And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I am consummated. 33Nevertheless I must walk to day and to morrow, and the day following, because it cannot be that a prophet perish,
out of Jerusalem.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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