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Mike,
You said:
Does that sum it up? God was an afflicted soul who prayed to his Son for deliverance in Ps 102, and credited his Son with the creation of the heavens and the earth?
Of course, the Father wasn’t the psalmist. In Hebrews 1,the Father was making the connection of what was said in the Psalm to who actually carried out those acts during creation, it was the Son, whom the psalmist calls YHVH and God.
Enjoy your day! LU
Hi Mike,
YOU: End of story.
ME: IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU ARE SOMEHOW, A BIT PREOCCUPIED, ARE YOU?
IF NOT, HERE IS ANOTHER HEADACHE I’M AFRAID!
YOU: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.
ME: I’M AFRAID YOU ARE EITHER CONFUSED OR SIMPLY IGNORANT OF THE TRUTH! IMO.
Let’s start with the last word:
GRACES!
Mike, WE AS CHRISTIANS EX SATANIC, NOT EVEN A PEOPLE, 1Peter2:10
RECEIVE GOD’S GRACES BY
JESUS!
WHICH IS A HELL OF A DIFFERENCE FROM WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING, THAT
JESUS IS A JOINT HEIR ALONG WITH US OF GOD’S GRACES!
SCRIPTURE IS EMPHATICALLY CLEAR, in
John1:15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying:
This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.
16 And of his fulness we all have received,AND GRACE FOR GRACE.
17For the law was given by Moses;
GRACE AND TRUTH CAME
BY CHRIST.
Now read Mike, hereunder to have some knowledge regarding graces, of which I believe, with every respect, YOU NOT ONLY DON’T KNOW HOW WE RECEIVE THEM, BUT ALSO THEIR ORIGIN,
THE FACT THAT YOU PREACHED AS SUCH!
Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail,
full of grace,…..
Mike, JESUS’ MOTHER in the above is FULL OF GRACE,
NOW TELL ME WHAT WAS JESUS REGARDING GRACES, IF HIS MOTHER WAS
FULL OF GRACE?
CONSIDERING THAT “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, AS A SPIRIT,
TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY, IN HIS OWN MOTHER, CONCEIVED AND CREATED MARY, IN HER HEART, AS THE NEW FEMALE LIVING SOUL, and THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW CREATION.
BY WHOSE PRESENCE ON HER CONCEPTION, SHE BECAME
FULL OF GRACE.
AS MUCH AS HE CREATED DAVID HIS FATHER, ALSO TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY IN DAVID, AS THE FIRST KING OVER THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL, AND BY WHOM DAVID BECAME ALSO
THE MAN AFTER GOD’S OWN HEART!!!
THAT REGARDING GRACES,Now to your error regarding the ” joint-heir” term.
That in the next post!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
YOU: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.
Romans 8: 17And if sons,
heirs also;
heirs indeed of God, and
joint-heirs WITH CHRIST
yet so, if we suffer WITH HIM,
that we may be also glorified WITH HIM.
OK Mike, PROPERLY PREACHED: WE AS CHRISTIANS,
SPIRITUALLY AS SOULS, ARE
HEIRS INDEED OF GOD, BY THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD, and
CARNALLY AS HUMANS, JOINT-HEIRS
WITH CHRIST,
“THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN. ON HIS RESURRECTION, NOT AS YOU PREACHED
Jesus is a joint heir along with us
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come,
God sent his Son,
made of a woman, made under the law: 5That he might redeem them who were under the law:
that we might receive (BY JESUS) the adoption of sons.
7Therefore now HE IS NOT A SERVANT,
but a son.
And if a son, an heir also through God.
Mike, GOT IT??? JESUS RIGHT NOW, IS NEITHER JOINT-HEIR NOR A SERVANT!!!
Hebrews:1:2In these days hath spoken to us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of ALL THINGS,
Mike, for God’s sake, respect scriptures, please!
JESUS IS THE HEIR OF ALL THINGS and
JOINT-HEIR OF NOTHING!!!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
YOU: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.
John15:I AM the true vine, and
my Father is the husbandman.Mike is the Father serving Jesus in the above?
2Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit,
he will take away:
Is the Father serving Jesus in the above?
and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Is the Father serving Jesus in the above?
3Now you are clean by reason of the word, (HIS SPIRIT IN THEIR HEART) which I have spoken to you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5I am the vine; you the branches:
OK, Mike? WE AS CHRISTIANS ARE MERE BRANCHES,
JESUS IS THE VINE!
he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:
for without me you can do nothing.
NEVER MIND Mike:
JESUS IS JOINT-HEIR ALONG WITH US OF GOD’S GRACES!!!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike,
Scripture says that nothing was made apart from Him, obviously He was not “made.”
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Hi Mike,
YOU: Carmel: I am serving my son right at this MOMENT IN TIME DOING THE ENTIRE FURNITURE OF HIS HOUSE FOR HIM
You are graciously giving of yourself to help your son.
You are your son’s BENEFACTOR, not his SERVANT.
ME, YES without a doubt!
BUT GOD GAVE US TWO EYES NOT JUST ONE AND!
AND FROM YOUR SIDE, THAT ‘S ONLY FROM ONE PERSPECTIVE OF THE TASK I’M AFRAID!
you: Carmel, God is not the servant of His own servant Jesus. End of story
ME: Mike, according to you:
THE FATHER IS NOT THE SERVANT OF HIS OWN SON JESUS! END OF STORY!
Read:
2 Corinthians 5:19 For God indeed was in Christ,
reconciling the world to himself, …..
John5:17 But Jesus answered them:
My Father worketh until now; and I work.
John14:Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,
he that seeth me seeth the Father also.
How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?
10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
The words (THE GOSPEL) that I speak to you, I speak not of myself.
But the Father who abideth in me,
he doth the works.
11Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake.
Mike, IS THE FATHER IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES SERVING, OR BEING SERVED? OR
BOTH BEING SERVED AND SERVED IN ONE INSTANT?
THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE Mike, IS THAT
BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON ACHIEVED ALL IN GOD!
SINCE GOD IS MYSTERIOUS AND UNKNOWN and KNOWN ONLY IN
JESUS CHRIST THE TRUTH! OR MORE PRECISE:
THE TRUE GOD!
1John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:
and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,
and may be in his true Son.
This is the true God and life eternal.
peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike,
You said:
Technically, Heb 1:1-2 says that, through his Son, God created the world. We know it is referring to the Father, but the writer explicitly identifies the Son as someone other than the one he identifies as “God” – whom he also identifies as the ONE who created the world.
Technically, it is the one the writer of Hebrews calls “God” who identifies the Son as the YHVH who laid the foundation of the world, etc.
Mike: Let’s lay this out clearly…
1. The author of Ps 102 prayed specifically, knowingly, and solely to YHVH the Son (the one who actually did create the heavens and the earth).
2. The author of Heb 1 somehow knew that this particular prayer to YHVH in Ps 102 was not to YHVH the Father, nor to YHVH the Binity (Father and Son together) – but to YHVH the Son alone (the one who actually laid the foundations of the earth and stretched out the heavens).
3. The author of Heb 1, by attributing the words in Ps 102 to God, is therefore saying that the prayer of the afflicted soul in Ps 102 was actually a prayer made by God (whom he previously credited with creating the world in verse 2) to YHVH the Son (who he is now crediting with creating the world).
Does that sum it up? God was an afflicted soul who prayed to his Son for deliverance in Ps 102, and credited his Son with the creation of the heavens and the earth? Hmm… I’m not sure about that one.
LU: Of course, the Father wasn’t the psalmist. In Hebrews 1,the Father was making the connection of what was said in the Psalm to who actually carried out those acts during creation, it was the Son, whom the psalmist calls YHVH and God.
I’m sorry, but we’re going to have to take it a little more slowly for me to understand. As I understand your last post, you ARE saying that the psalmist knew he was praying exclusively to “YHVH the Son” – the one whose hands stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth. And the psalmist knowingly and intentionally called the Son both “YHVH” and “God”, and credited him with the creation of the heavens and the earth. Is that correct?
Mike: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.
Carmel: I’M AFRAID YOU ARE EITHER CONFUSED OR SIMPLY IGNORANT OF THE TRUTH! IMO…
Mike, WE AS CHRISTIANS… RECEIVE GOD’S GRACES BY JESUS!
WHICH IS A HELL OF A DIFFERENCE FROM WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING, THAT JESUS IS A JOINT HEIR ALONG WITH US OF GOD’S GRACES!Romans 8:14-17
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
So many points in one little passage. First of all, our hope is to become spiritual children of God – not siblings of God. And as children of God, we will be brothers and sisters of God’s firstborn Son, Jesus. Since many will become brothers of Jesus – but nobody will become a brother of God – Jesus is not God.
Secondly, you can read right there that as children of God, we will also be heirs of God… right along with our brother Jesus, who is also a son and heir of his and our God.
Thirdly, we will also share in Jesus’ glory (and some will even rule with him from his throne for a while). On the other hand, God gives his glory to no one else, and none of us will ever rule alongside God from his throne.
LU: Mike,
Scripture says that nothing was made apart from Him, obviously He was not “made.”
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Scripture also says that God created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. Well, God is one of the things in heaven, so therefore God created himself, right?
Common sense will tell you that “everything in the heavens” obviously excludes the God who created those things. (It doesn’t exclude Jesus though.) Likewise, all things being made through Jesus obviously excludes Jesus himself, who clearly couldn’t have been made through Jesus before Jesus was made.
Imagine the things Trinitarians could claim if Paul didn’t iinclude this common sense disclaimer that everybody should have already known…
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
People with common sense don’t even need that disclaimer. I think Paul included it for people like Carmel, who without it would be using that verse to support his claim that God is Jesus’ servant because Paul said God is under Jesus. (Or maybe for people like you who don’t seem to know that God didn’t create himself, and that Jesus – the beginning of God’s creation, the firstborn of every creature, created as the first of God’s works, and having his origin in the distant past – wasn’t created by God through himself.)
I’m happy to see you went there though. I consider it a sign that my solid rebuttals to your previous claims are finally getting through to you.
Mike: Technically, Heb 1:1-2 says that, through his Son, God created the world. We know it is referring to the Father, but the writer explicitly identifies the Son as someone other than the one he identifies as “God” – whom he also identifies as the ONE who created the world.
LU: Technically, it is the one the writer of Hebrews calls “God” who identifies the Son as the YHVH who laid the foundation of the world, etc.
My statement is unequivocally true and scriptural. The validity of yours is still undergoing peer-review. I’ll await your response to my latest post on the psalmist. In the meantime, I’ll ponder the possibility that the same person would write that “God” created the world, while identifying God’s Son as someone other than the God who created the world, but then turn around and claim that it was this very Son – and not God as previously stated – who actually created the world.
Mike,
You said:
Scripture also says that God created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. Well, God is one of the things in heaven, so therefore God created himself, right?
Actually God wouldn’t ever be said to have “come into being” now would he.
Neither the Father, Son or their Spirit “came into being.” They always were, in essence.
Your point has no merit.
Mike….Even if you were to render it as present tense , it still could be understood as Jesus exists presently, (in importance ), before Abraham did or does, right? But no texts that i have ever seen says Jesus was “alive”, before Abraham was.
Many try to force the text to say that, but it not written that way any where, and remember the living bible is completely full of errors as any true scholar will most likely tell you. Kings James is who i was told is considered the most accurate brother, and even it has errors in it too. According to critical Scholar, Bart Ehrman.
I believe Jesus had to be “exactly”, like us in every way and detail, without exception, or it would simply have corrupted God the Fathers work of perfection in all humanity. He is the finished prototype of what God had in mind at the very beginning of his creation of mankind. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Hello brother Gene, this is the problem with the NT writers they forced the Jewish scriptures to suit their purpose. The writer of Fourth Gospel had put words into Jesus mouth to fulfill his Christology stating that Jesus was preexisting before his birth as human being. He was the ‘word’ that was with God in the beginning and was somehow involved in God’s creation. Such concepts are not available in Hebrew scriptures unless we force them and take them out of their original context. The NT writers had done lot of research on Hebrew scriptures and framed their Christology based on their beliefs and to suit their community.
This is the reason why we have lot of doctrines in Christianity based on the texts of NT whether it is Trinity or Binity or Preexistence or Angiology. We can’t blame our brothers and sisters who are debating here on various topics. Everyone is basing their argument on some concept or the other that is found in the NT texts. This is the pity. You can not come to conclusion on any topic here unless you close your eyes and compromise on certain concepts.
Adam…..Correct brother, the NT, has over time been corrupted, even the early speakers were corrupting them. Like the Gnostic’s for instance. That is exactly why the apostle Paul said, the Bereans, were more noble then those in Tessalonica , because they searched the scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing was true or not, and remember the “only scriptures” they had was the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures. .
That has helped me over the years to sift through many false teachings . If what is being said does not match up exactly with the Old Testament, it should be held as highly questionable. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Adam………gene
Mike,
You said:
My statement is unequivocally true and scriptural. The validity of yours is still undergoing peer-review.
Here is your “peer-review:”
According to the NET Bible notes:
sn You founded the earth…your years will never run out. In its original setting Ps 102:25-27 refers to the work of God in creation, but here in Hebrews 1:10-12 the writer employs it in reference to Christ, the Lord, making a strong argument for the essential deity of the Son.
Enjoy, LU
Hi Mike,
YOU: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.
YOU: So many points in one little passage.
SO MANY POINTS WHICH YOU DIDN’T UNDERSTAND WITH EVERY RESPECT! IMO.
YOU: First of all, our hope is to become spiritual children of God.
NOT QUITE RIGHT:
WE ARE ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD! IN FACT, THAT PASSAGE CLEARLY SAYS
Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also;
HEIRS INDEED OF GOD!
Mike, I posted FOUR POSTS AS AN ANSWER TO YOUR POST WITH THE HOPE THAT
YOU DISCERN THE TRUTH!
I also said ;
I’M AFRAID YOU ARE EITHER CONFUSED OR SIMPLY IGNORANT OF THE TRUTH! IMO.
NOW IT IS OBVIOUS AS I SUSPECTED AND
YOU ARE INDED PREOCCUPIED!
Mike, God is a spirit, and that scripture said
WE ARE INDEED HEIRS OF GOD!
WE ARE HEIRS OF GOD’S SPIRIT!
Can’t you see this Mike?
Read again what I POSTED: IF YOU DID READ MY POSTS, OF WHICH I DOUBT!
Mike, PROPERLY PREACHED: WE AS CHRISTIANS,
SPIRITUALLY AS SOULS, ARE
HEIRS INDEED OF GOD, BY THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD.
JESUS CHRIST
JESUS, THE FATHER’S SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3, was in ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER IN THE FORM OF GOD,
THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD,
THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!
HE EMPTIED HIMSELF OF HIS DIVINITY, HE POURED HIS SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, ENGRAFTED IN ALL CREATURES’ HEART, BY WHICH TASK HE BECAME WEAK AS HUMANS ARE, AND IN THE SAME TIME
MOST POWERFUL, SINCE HIS SPIRIT WAS POURED AND SEALED ALL OVER CREATION! John6:27
THEN HE CAME ON EARTH AND AS A HUMAN IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN,
BUT NOT AUTHENTIC, ESTABLISHED
HIS FATHER!
NO FATHER NO JESUS
NO JESUS NO FATHER!
John 17:1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is ETERNAL LIFE,
THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
AND JESUS CHRIST,
WHOM YOU HAST SENT.
OR ELSE THE FATHER WOULD HAVE REMAINED MYSTERIOUS, UNKNOWN, AND NOT ACCEPTED ON THIS PLANET!
4I have glorified thee on the earth:
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father,
glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory
which I had with thee before the world was.
The embodiment of God
Now, do you know WHY AND HOW WE ARE ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD! Mike?
NO YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID: READ:
1 Peter 1:3Blessed be THE God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath BEGOTTEN US again unto a lively hope by
THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST from the dead,
4To an INHERITANCE incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away,
RESERVED in heaven for you,
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation
ready to be revealed in the last time.
YOU: – not siblings of God.
ME: WHAT DO YOU MEAN “NOT SIBLINGS”
EXPLAIN PLEASE Mike, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOUR CARNAL MIND CONTAINS, REGARDING THE INHERITANCE THAT WE
INHERITED AND IT IS RESERVED IN HEAVEN TO BE REVEALED ON THE LAST DAY.
YOU: And as children of God, we will be brothers and sisters of God’s firstborn Son, Jesus. Since many will become brothers of Jesus – but nobody will become a brother of God –
Jesus is not God.
ME: Mike, READ AGAIN THAT SCRIPTURE PLEASE!
Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also;
HEIRS INDEED OF GOD!
Mike, for God’s sake
JESUS ESTABLISHED GOD THE FATHER ON EARTH
IN HIMSELF!
1 John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding
that we may know the true God,
and may be in his true Son.
This is the true God and life eternal.
JESUS CHRIST GODMAN!
GOD THE FATHER WAS NEVER THE ONLY TRUE GOD BY HIMSELF ON THIS PLANET!
JESUS PROCLAIMED HIM SO!
ON THIS PLANET THE ONLY WAY THAT THINGS ARE ACCEPTED AS TRUE, ARE THOSE THINGS
WHICH ARE TANGIBLE!
ONLY JESUS WAS AND STILL IS
TANGIBLE!
FOR THE PLEASURE AND GLORY OF THE FATHER!
JESUS IS THE TRUTH ON THIS PLANET! SATAN’S.
NOT THE FATHER!
JESUS IS THE MOST POWERFUL! For the pleasure of the Father
John17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine;
and I am glorified in them.
Secondly, you can read right there that as children of God, we will also be heirs of God… right along with our brother Jesus, who is also a son and heir of his and our God.Thirdly, we will also share in Jesus’ glory (and some will even rule with him from his throne for a while). On the other hand, God gives his glory to no one else, and none of us will ever rule alongside God from his throne.
ME: ALL THE ABOVE WOULD BE CLARIFIED IN THE NEXT POST!
IN THE MEANTIME, READ:
Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, is the natural “heir” and SUBSTANCE of the Father. “God said to him, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’” (Hebrews 5:5; cf. Psalm 2:7). Christ’s inheritance is the whole universe, HIS SPIRIT IS POURED ALL OVER AND SEALED IN THE ENTIRE CREATION: John6:27. Hebrews 1:2 says that the Son has been
“appointed heir of all things.”
Being a co-heir with Christ means that we, as God’s adopted children,
will share in the inheritance of Jesus.
What belongs to Jesus will also belong to us.
Not the other way round Mike AS YOU PREACH!!!
Christ gives us His glory (John 17:22),
His riches (2 Corinthians 8:9), and all things (Hebrews 1:2).
We are as welcome in God’s family as Jesus is;
JESUS MADE HUMANITY
AUTHENTIC IN HIS OWN FLESH AND BLOOD BODY ON HIS RESURRECTION Mike!
HE GAVE US HIS BODY! 1Peter 1:3. Well asserted in the last supper!
EAT THIS IS MY FLESH WHICH IS
GIVEN FOR YOU!
ON HIS RESURRECTION!
we are “accepted in the Beloved” (Ephesians 1:6, NKJV).
All that belongs to Jesus Christ will belong to us, the co-heirs, as well.
Everything that God owns, THANKS TO JESUS CHRIST, John17:10, belongs to us as well IN CHRIST because we belong to Him.
WE ARE CHRIST’S PROPERTY! John17:2
Our eternal inheritance as co-heirs
with Christ:
ONE SUBSTANCE WITH CHRIST!!!
is the result of the amazing grace of God in
JESUS CHRIST
GODMAN
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike…..there is not a single scripture that “says” Jesus “existed before Abraham ” not one. Lets just start with that first,
There is no single scripture that says that Jesus was created in the time of the Roman Empire either. But scripture teaches those who seek the truth this very clearly. That God made all things through him. That is all things. There was not one thing that existed without him. God actually created all things through the Word, The Son, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hint: These are not three persons. They are the same person.
- The Word. See John 1:3
- The Son. See Hebrews 1:1-2 & Colossians 1: 15-20
- Lord Jesus Christ. See 1 Corinthians 8:6
You have no answer for these scriptures, only excuses. And you do realise that liars do not inherit the Kingdom of God right?
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.Colossians 1: 15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
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