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Gene,
1 John 2:23
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
If the Son does not exist, neither does the Father. The same is true that if the Father does not exist, neither does the Son.
They must both exist, one does not exist apart from the other.
Think about it.
Be blessed, LU
Hi Carmel
I beleive That : The Father called the Son to rise AND the Saviour came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself. Now was proved the truth of His words, “I lay down My life, that I might take it again…. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” Now was fulfilled the prophecy He had spoken to the priests and rulers, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” John 10:17, 18; 2:19.
Only He who is one with God could say, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death.
Berean and Carmel,
The ascension that Jesus speaks about when he says that he will raise himself up on the third day, IMO, is this one:
John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’
Any thoughts?
Enjoy your day,
LU
Berean. …..Jesus did not raise himself from the dead, Many scriptures say that God the Father raised him from the grave. If Jesus was able to raise himself from the dead then he really never truly died. Because scripture tell us that when a person dies their thoughts parish, the dead know nothing.
So if we say Jesus didn’t truly die, aren’t we making him out to be a liar? , and he then didn’t truly die for our sins either, right? It was all a fake then right?
I believe his was “TRULY” DEAD, and it was God the Father that raised him back to life again.
Just like Rom 8: 11 says.
Many other scriptures say that God the Father did raise him from the dead also. If you would like I can quote them for you.
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
To all…….What I don’t understand, is why do you want to always make Jesus to always appear different then we are? What’s your points in doing that?
Peace and love to you and your. ………gene
Hi Gene,
You asked:
Lu…..A father alway exists before his Son does right?
No, that’s not right. Up until the moment of conception, the one about to be a father is not a father yet unless he has already had his first child.
One has to have, at the very least, a developing living fetus offspring in existence in order to truly be a father in the biological sense.
God bless you Gene,
LU
Gene
John 10:18
No man taketh it (Jesus’s live) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
The Father called the Son to arise, and by his divinity Jesus raised up his dead body (to give life again).HE OBEYED TO HIS FATHER:
Hi Gene,
YOU: If Jesus was able to raise himself from the dead then he really never truly died. Because scripture tell us that when a person dies their thoughts parish, the dead know nothing.
Gene, you put God in the same basket of humans!
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking on them, saith: With men it is impossible; but not with God:
for all things are possible with God.
Read hereunder and just tell me what this scripture confirms!
1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust:
that he might offer us to God, (BEGOTTEN)
being put to death indeed in the FLESH,
but enlivened in the SPIRIT,
19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
The above Gene CLEARLY declares that
“THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE,
DIED FOR SURE BUT ALSO FOR SURE IN THE SAME INSTANCE,
HE NOT ONLY DIDN’T LOOSE ANYTHING OF HIS FLESH, well clear in
John 6:39Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in
THE LAST DAY. ( ON THE CROSS )
BUT HE GLORIFIED IT INTO ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, AT HIS DISPOSITION WITH
THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE IN
JESUS CHRIST John4:36-37, John 13;31-32. John 17:1,
GODMAN
JESUS SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH TO THE EXTENT THAT DESPITE
AS A CRIMINAL HE WAS TAKEN BY SATAN TO HELL, HE PREACHED HIS GOSPEL IN THE MIDST OF HELLFIRE, (MOSES’ BURNING BUSH NOT BEING CONSUMED) GLORIFIED IN HIS FLESH BODY AND FREED ALL THOSE SOULS (SPIRITUALLY DEAD) ENSLAVED FROM THE TIME OF ADAM’S FALL!
THE FACT THAT MANY SAINTS CAME OUT OF THEIR GRAVES!
Gene get this into your mind that Jesus on His DEATH glorified
GODMAN! 1John5:20
He became not only the sole sovereign overall but also the most powerful ever and by His own unique power He raised His own dead body, not for His own sake, but for the human race sake!
Jesus was already glorified and preached His Gospel in hell as
JESUS CHRIST,
John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead (spiritually dead in hell) shall hear the voice of the Son of God,(preaching the gospel) and they that hear shall live.
Well mentioned in
John10:27My sheep HEAR MY VOICE:(WHEN HE PREACHED HIS GOSPEL IN HELL) and I know them, and they follow me. 28And I give them LIFE EVERLASTING; (FREED FROM HELLFIRE) and they shall NOT PERISH forever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.
I repeat Jesus Christ raised His own dead body
FOR THE HUMAN RACE SAKE!
HE GAVE His dead body to the human race, well mentioned in
1Peter 3;18 above…..that he might offer us to God, (BEGOTTEN)…..
Also mentioned by Jesus in His last supper:
Eat this is my body which is GIVEN for you……
Now to the scripture:
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life:
so the Son also giveth life TO WHOM HE WILL.
From the above declaration,
Jesus Christ
THE SON OF GOD,
GLORIFIED GODMAN ON THE CROSS,
resurrected the entire human race all embodied in JESUS’ DEAD BODY,
THE SON OF MAN
PRECISELY by His own spirit, Mentioned in
Luke 23:46 And Jesus crying out with a loud voice, said: Father,
into thy hands I commend MY SPIRIT. ( SLAIN LIKE A LAMB…….Rev. 13:8)
And saying this, he gave up THE GHOST. (JESUS DIVINE NATURE)
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel……You have added you thoughts to the scriptures, I would have to take every thing you have left off, and explain it to you. This is just a few.
GODMAN……not one scripture called Jesus a Godman.
My sheep hear my voice, why?, because they have the Spirit of truth “in” them the same as Jesus did and that is why they can know the voice of the Spirit speaking in and through him. THAT SPIRIT WAS IN the Son of man, Jesus also, that is why Jesus said that “HE” (God would take of mine) and give it unto you, SAME SPIRIT OF TRUTH, JESUS WAS ANOINTED WITH given from God the Father, GIVEN BY THE “ONE” God, IS ALSO GIVEN BY THE SAME GOD given to the Saints. EXACTLY AS IT WAS GIVEN TO JESUS, ANOTHER SON OF MANKIND, WHO ARE ALL SONS OF THE LIVING GOD, BY THAT VERY PROCESS. Jesus never said “He” GAVE THE SPIRIT TO ANYONE, NOT EVEN TO HIMSELF. Why do you think he said “he of himself could do “nothing”, you make Jesus out to be able to do anything by himself , but scripture disagree with you in many places. Jesus even told us this “no man “Could” come unto him, “UNLESS” THE FATHER DRAW HIM.” WHY would he say that if he could do anything himself? If Jesus was so different then we are , why would he even say , “he that believes in me, “greater works then I do, shall he do, because I go to the Father”. how shall we do greater work then he did? If what you preach is true?
This is how I know you are not of the truth , it’s because you teaching does not aline with what Jesus himself said. You make Jesus out to be your very God, something Jesus never told us to do. We are to believe the word of God that the Spirit was speaking through , but that is a far cry from saying he is the author of those word himself, espically when he himself said this, “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORD, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM THAT SENT ME. Again , “him that has ears to hear let him hear what the SPIRIT SAYS UNTO THE CHURCHES” . EVEN IN THAT STATEMENT Jesus is showing us clearly he is not t he source of those word , but the Spirit of God was, God is a Spirit and speaks directly through his prophets, and that includes Jesus also, but none of that makes the prophets, them or Jesus, or us who also have the earnest of the Spirit that understand the voice of the spirit, a God. GOD IS A SPIRIT AND CAN INDWELL ALL AND BE IN ALL AT THE SAME TIME. If you truly believed Jesus, and what he said, you would know this, that is why it is aperant to me you are not of the Spirit, or you would know these things , making Jesus into your God, is a sin and a transgression of the first commandment of God the Father, “you shall have no other God besides me”. Any one who changes the “image” of the man Jesus, into a God is committing Idolatry. 2 the 2, is exactly what you are doing with the Son of Man and it will be Jesus himself out of his own mouth that will destroy all t b see false teachings at his return, Just as 2ths 2 says he will. That man of Sin there is who you preach as your God. SOMETHING JESUS NEVER DID.
There are many more errors in what you are saying and adding false thoughts to , but it would take too long Carmel , no to go through each of them, perhaps if you would center on one thing at a time it would be easier for everyone.
Peace and love to you and your. ……….gene
Lu….I know what you are trying to say, but , no matter what you say, a Father always premises his Son, God told Abraham he would be the Father of many nations, “would be”, not that he already was. But scripture says that “Levi paid tithes through Abraham , because he was in the bowel of Abraham , when Abraham paid tithes, to Melkisadic., but was Levi actually alive did he himself actually do it ? No he was not even alive then.
Jesus though in the plan and will of God the Father was not alive ,until his berth on this earth either, even though he was in the plan and will of God.
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Christ above all law.
The Son of God came willingly to carry out the work of the atonement. No yoke
obligatory rested on Him, for He was independent and above all law.
Angels, as intelligent messengers of God, were under the yoke of obligation
; no self-sacrifice could make atonement for fallen man. Alone
Christ Was Free from the Requirements of the Law to Undertake the Redemption of the Race
sinful. He had the power to lay down His life to take it back. “Existing in the form of
God, [He] did not regard it as a prey to be snatched from being equal with God “(SW 4/9/1906).Hi Gene,
GODMAN……not one scripture called Jesus a Godman
ME: There are many truths that scripture never CLEARLY produced?
For instance that JESUS ATE HIS OWN BODY and drank HIS OWN BLOOD in the last supper!
That Jesus IN ONE INSTANCE was both DEAD on the cross and in His tomb and ALIVE IN HELL preaching His Gospel!
That Jesus resurrected His own dead body!
That Jesus spiritualized His flesh body before His passion and was ready to be sacrificed in order to return to the Father as
A SPIRIT glorified in FLESH!
That Jesus all the time He was on earth as a human He still remained also in Heaven as a spirit.
Now, that Jesus is MAN we all accept. NO? Though you don’t accept the fact that He is not of the world. Despite Jesus’ own words!
That Jesus is God the majority of Christians accept. NO?
That means that Jesus for the majority of Christians is
both God and MAN or in short
GODMAN! NO? You tell me the difference!
You don’t even accept that Jesus came forth from the Father despite asserted in scripture! Read the scripture hereunder:
John16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that
I came out from God.
28I came forth from the Father,
and am come INTO the world: again I leave the world, and I go to the Father.
Read now hereunder the scriptures that declare Jesus is God.
Isaiah 9:6For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor,
God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
7His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace:
he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom;
to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son:
Thy throne, O God,
is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of THY KINGDOM.
9Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity:
THEREFORE GOD,
thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Isaiah 45:14Thus saith the Lord:
The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee,
and shall be thine:
they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles:
and they shall worship thee,
and shall make supplication to thee:
only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.
15Verily thou art a hidden God,
the God of Israel THE SAVIOUR
1John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:
and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,
and may be in his TRUE SON
This is the true God and life eternal.
John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them:
I ASCEND TO (THE STATE AND GLORY) my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.
John16:15 ALL THINGS whatsoever the Father hath, (GOD and FATHER)
are mine….(JESUS IS ALSO GOD and FATHER)
I hope that you produce scripture that declares Jesus is not God!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Gene,
You said:
Lu….I know what you are trying to say, but , no matter what you say, a Father always premises his Son, God told Abraham he would be the Father of many nations, “would be”, not that he already was.
I think what you are trying to say is that the person who will be a father to his future son, will have already existed as a person before his son comes into existence. In that I would agree when you are referring to normal sexual reproduction.
The difference is that the Son did not come from normal sexual reproduction when he was born before creation. There was no sex involved (there was no sex involved when He came into Mary either but that is a whole different scenario to discuss at another time). Therefore, the Son, as a distinct mindful being, came from an asexual reproductive process obviously, since He didn’t come from a sexual reproductive process. Whatever that looked like, I don’t claim to know. However, I do believe that the Son is identified as YHVH which represents eternally existence, but how can the Son have eternal existence and also be a Son of an eternally existent being and not merely a co-partner per se?
That is a million dollar question and I have found an example in creation that shows how that can be. For example, in the very first generation of a specific type of cell that asexually reproduces, it is possible for the parent and offspring to contain essence that is not only identical but also of the same age. In that instance, the one that was to have a son, always had what went into the son, within himself the whole time. Therefore the essence that was in the parent was the same age as the essence that came to be in the son as well. Voila’ the parent and son can both claim the eternal existence in some manner. In other words, the Son was always existent within the Father in some manner even if it is just in essence. There was never a time when the essence of the Son did not exist, as I understand it.
In summary, we cannot sufficiently compare the offspring from sexual reproduction to the offspring from asexual reproduction. Also, if it is possible in a created cell to have a parent and offspring share identical essence that has always existed, they both have eternal existence in some manner.
Here is my diagram again of this asexual reproduction that demonstrates that the stuff inside the cell in the first phase, becomes the stuff inside both cells in the later phases. To be clear, the stuff that ends up in the two cells on the right, existed within the first cell on the left.
I know that is a deep thought exercise but it is interesting to think through if you give it a chance.
Enjoy, LU
Lu….we all came from one source and that is God, remember what Jesus said? , “call no man your Father on earth , because one is you Father , who is in heaven”. So we like Jesus can say God is indeed our Father also, just like he was his Father.
Adam and ever were not from any human parents, and is not Adam called in scripture “the son of God”? You say Jesus was not produced through sex, I say you are wrong he was produced through sex, in fact he was the “only one” that God himself , did produce through a sexual encounter. The word “begotten” expresses a direct sexual action taken by someone through a sexual union taken in the womb of a female.
Mary being the only women God had sex with that brought forth the “only begotten of God”, by God himself in the womb of a women. NO OTHER HUMAN WOMEN DID God himself plant a human seed in, but her, and therefore he a human being was the “only begotten” (flesh born son of God) no other human can claim that, even though we all are Fathered by God, through his creation of our gennetic code and placing that in our first parents Adam and Eve , who started the whole process of giving berth.
The actual first “BORN” human was Cain then Able the Seth, and so forth. But the actual Father of us all is God the Father, because we all came into being because of him. That is why Jesus said call no man your Father on earth , for one is your Father who is in heaven.
That is exactly Why Jesus alway started his prayerson with Father, and would say “our” Father who art in heaven mm or “your Father in heaven knows you have need of these things”.etc.
But Jesus himself was directly Fathered by God implanting The seed that came from the Lions of King David into Mary womb . He was unique in all humanity, because of God the Father himself giving him berth through a women directly himself delevering to him his DNA from the loins of King DAVID, just as Jesus said , that he was the root and offspring of David,
Do you see how all prophesy was fulfilled, the promise by God to King David the of his seed a ruler would come to sit on his throne for ever, and also what all the other prophets said came true.
The only way those things to come true was if God took the DNA of KING DAVID, and plant them into the womb of Mary, and that is exactly what he did do. Jesus certainly did have a Spica relationship with God , coming from the “only” women the Eternal God himself had sexual relations with, when his Spirit overshadowed her.
In conclusion, Jesus was indeed the “ONLY” HUMAN BEING , that was truly “BEGOTTEN” by a direct sexual experience by God the Father through a human women. THAT does make him unique in humanity . But it does not make him a preexisting being of anykind, but indeed unique.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Carmel…..Again you take liberties to change some scriptures to meet your false teachings, your not taking into consideration all the scriptures that counterdict your teachings. Jesus never one time ever said he was a God, nor that he prexisted his birth on this earth, not a single scripture shows any activity of him before his birth on this earth, no so much as one.
Why not just take one thin at a time for a change and let’s talk about that, Instead of mixing everything up, all the time, that shows poor scholarship in my opinion, and you lack of true knowledge.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Hi Gene,
YOU: My sheep hear my voice, why?, because they have the Spirit of truth “in” them the same as Jesus did and that is why they can know the voice of the Spirit speaking in and through him.
Gene you are completely confused and lost in your CARNAL MENTALITY:
Jesus sent the spirit of truth on Pentecost! Fifty days after
HE DIED/GLORIFIED GODMAN ON THE CROSS! John13:31-32. Johm17:1 John 4:36-37
Now read what I posted:
John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh,
and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.
Gene, Jesus, THE SON OF GOD, in the above meant that
The hour came, obvious a clear reference to His
DEATH/GLORIFICATION on the cross John13:31-32, John17:1, John4:36-37;
When the dead, obvious again, SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN HELL,
Shall hear the voice of
THE SON OF GOD, obvious as well, a reference to those who accept his Gospel and shall LIVE, obvious one more time, receive eternal life and freed from hellfire.
My first question, ANSWER please Gene: Why did Jesus mention the Son of God and not the Son of Man?
OK Gene, Jesus preached the Gospel to all souls, TO HIS SHEEP, when He was in hell, that means, that THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH was not yet sent by Jesus Christ Godman, since He was still in hell.
The spirit of truth was sent ON EARTH more than fifty days after, and to be received only on baptism after they believe in Jesus Christ and accept His Gospel.
Now the above is also mentioned in
1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust:
that he might offer us to God, (BEGOTTEN)
being put to death indeed in the FLESH,
but enlivened in the SPIRIT,
19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
OK Gene, Jesus THE SON OF MAN, THE WORD MADE FLESH, died in the FLESH and in the same instance HE GLORIFIED HIS FLESH IN THE SPIRIT, ONE SUBSTANCE WITH
THE HOLY GHOST AS
JESUS CHRIST
Now let’s read again John 5:25 and the following 2 verses;
John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of
THE SON OF GOD, and they that hear shall live. John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27And he hath given him power to do judgment,
attention Gene please:
because he is
THE SON OF MAN.
Got it Gene?
First Jesus mentioned the Son of God, glorified in the Holy Ghost, Jesus’ divine nature as
Jesus Christ, on
Jesus’ death, the Son of Man, Jesus’ human nature, and then emphatically confirmed that
The Son of God is also the Son of Man.
FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT INTEGRATEDN AS
JESUS CHRIST
Consequently, Jesus Christ was given the power to judge humanity!
For the simple reason that Jesus is the only person of the deity who became FLESH in all things like humans.
Now Gene, in verse 26 THE SON has life in Himself,
AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL: BECAUSE
HE INTEGRATED WITH THE
HOLY GHOST THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT!
THE FACT THAT
JESUS SENT THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, THE PARACLETE, THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER!
Now for the sake of truth and clarity especially for those who are still live on milk and more carnally minded, I hate to say it like you Gene, with very respect!
Read the scripture which is a stumbling block for you:
John16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that
ATTENTION AGAIN PLEASE:
I came out from God.
28I came forth from the Father,
Got it Gene? NO YOU DON’T with every respect to your CARNAL STATE!
Jesus said I CAME OUT FROM GOD, a clear reference to THE SON OF GOD in THE HOLY GHOST! The fact that Jesus is
OF THE HOLY GHOST! Jesus’divine nature!
Then He said:
I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER! a clear reference to
THE SON OF MAN! Jesus’human nature!
PRECISELY
“THE WORD” MADE FLESH,
the fact that the Son of Man is the
SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER! Hebrews 1:3 and
PROVIDED BY THE FATHER!
LET THERE BE LIGHT!
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!
not an ordinary human being of earth!
ONE MORE THING!
The Holy Ghost Gene for the first time ON JESUS’ DEATH acquired A FLESH AND BLOOD BODY, precisely
“THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN!
I repeat: They are not
Two anymore but
TWO IN ONE FLESH BODY!
BOTH THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN, BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, BOTH HEAVENLY AND EARTHLY, BOTH INVISIBLE AND VISIBLE, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS.
ONLY AT THE DISPOSITION OF
JESUS CHRIST AS HE SEEMS FIT!
Well clear in:
Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood
In the above, the Holy Ghost PURCHASED the church of God with HIS OWN BLOOD!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi LU,
Those who are fathers existed before they became fathers.
1 John 2:23 does not speak to that “if the Father does not exist, neither does the Son.”
The passage is about ones faith and if you don’t believe in the Son then you don’t truthfully believe either in our “One God the Father”, because after all Jesus upon receiving the Spirit of the Father was sent out into the world as our One God the Father’s messenger. Jesus was sent to do the works of God carrying out God’s will, so without believing in Jesus you are not believing in our One God the Father.
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