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Hi Lightenup,
YOU: Hi Carmel, Just as a small example, you said that which is here quoted, and you use a lot of terms that I don’t see in the scripture:
Most of that doesn’t make any sense to me, sorry. I don’t know where in the Bible, you are getting those terms.
YOU: God didn’t “establish” His Son,
He begat His Son before He created anything.
ME: YOU DIDN’T QUITE UNDERSTOOD WHAT I POSTED, I SAID:
FIRST AND FOREMOST GOD,
BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING,
GENERALLY SPEAKING,
(1) IN ORDER TO COMMUNICATE,
(2) ESTABLISHED HIS SON,
(3) HIS GENUINE ETERNAL ABODE,
PRECISELY AS
(4) “THE WORD”
ME: IN THE ABOVE I NUMBERED, PRESUMABLY WHAT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE TO YOU SO I WILL BE IN A BETTER POSITION TO GIVE MY OPINION WHY I USED THOSE TERMS!
NOW GOD, TO RESPECT YOUR TERM, BEGAT HIS SON
ON CREATION
LET THERE BE LIGHT!
BEFORE THAT INSTANT!
THE SON WAS WITHIN THE FATHER’S BOSOM!
AD INTRA! WITHIN GOD, NOT CUMMINCABLE!
ONCE GOD PRONOUNCED HIS WORD,
THE SON LEFT THE FATHER,
YOUR TERM BEGAT!
AND ESTABLISHED HIMSELF
ENGRAFTED IN THE HEART
OF THE ENDLESS SPIRITS EMANATED FROM GOD!
AD EXTRA! COMMUNICABLE
THE KINGDOM OF THE SON TO BE!
THE BEGINNING! GENESIS 1:1
NOW: WHERE IN THE BIBLE ONE CAN READ THAT
GOD BEGAT HIS SON
BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING? READ:
John1:1 1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was
in the beginning with God
APART FROM OTHER BEGINNINGS MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE,
IN THE ABOVE THERE ARE MENTIONED
TWO BEGINNINGS, THE WORD “BEGAT” AND GOD’S SON ARE NOT
MENTIONED!
ONLY
“THE WORD” IS MENTIONED!
DID GOD, ACCORDING TO YOU, BEGAT THE WORD???
IF “THE WORD” AS THE MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS LIKE I DO, BELIEVE, IS THE SON,
WHY IS HE CALLED
“THE WORD” IN THESE TWO PARTICULAR BEGINNINGS? ALSO
IN WHICH ONE IN THE ABOVE BEGINNINGS ALWAYS ACCORDING TO YOU,
GOD BEGAT HIS SON, OR
DID HE BEGAT HIS SON TWICE,
MORE TO COME
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
I didn’t say that the Son always existed “alongside” the Father. I said that He existed within the Father until He was begotten before the ages.
You could make that argument about everything. God is the Father of Spirits. So in a sense, we existed in God too, but we are not God or YHWH.
But wouldn’t existence be the moment you are your own person? That would be when you are begotten or created.
PC asked:
But wouldn’t existence be the moment you are your own person? That would be when you are begotten or created.
Existence doesn’t happen the moment one is born, Proclaimer. Even humans “exist” within the womb before birth for several months. Have you ever seen a baby in the womb of a mother through an ultrasound? Who can say that a baby does not exist after they see that???
Hi Carmel,
You said:
ME: YOU DIDN’T QUITE UNDERSTOOD WHAT I POSTED, I SAID:
I don’t mean to pick on you but I was reading your latest response to me and maybe part of the problem of me not understanding you, is partly how you misappropriate English word tenses. For instance, that word “understood” in your sentence that I quoted here, should be “understand” as an example.
Maybe it is also the style in which you present your post…with large and small fonts, extra spaces, short and long lines of words, also, capital letters are used in ways that distract rather than clarify, imo. Maybe try writing it without all those extra efforts. Maybe it is just me but I find your posts very long and hard to follow so I just pass them by. I don’t want to come on here and try to decipher a post. If you want me to understand what you are saying, just try writing it in short paragraph form and leave the font size alone. Make your words bold if you want to emphasize them. Also, try making much shorter posts.
I’m just trying to help…I am a teacher at heart.
God bless, LU
Proclaimer,
You said: So in a sense, we existed in God too, but we are not God or YHWH.
In what sense did we exist in God eternally, Proclaimer…chapter and verse, please.
There is no chapter or verse. I’m simply implying this based on your premise. I do not hold to this
If Jesus was in God for all eternity before being begotten as you claim, then how is it any different to any one else?
But I guess you could say that God knew each one of us even before we were born or created. I find it hard to believe that he wouldn’t know what or who He was bringing into existence before doing so.
Existence doesn’t happen the moment one is born, Proclaimer. Even humans “exist” within the womb before birth for several months. Have you ever seen a baby in the womb of a mother through an ultrasound? Who can say that a baby does not exist after they see that???
I said begotten or created. Do the unborn not fit into one of these? If not, then what other word can I use. Lol.
Anyway I meant begotten in the sense of the Son of God or created in the sense of our existence.
You know you are not winning with these objections
Proclaimer. …..There is“no” difference, we all were in the mind of God from the beginning of his human creation, including “the man” Jesus. But we all came into our own existence in our own order of time, “including Jesus”. Everything in existence came from the mind and “will” of God, without him , “nothing could exist”, nothing. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Hi Lighteneup,
YOU: Hi Carmel,
You said:
ME: YOU DIDN’T QUITE UNDERSTOOD WHAT I POSTED, I SAID:
I don’t mean to pick on you but I was reading your latest response to me and maybe part of the problem of me not understanding you, is partly how you misappropriate English word tenses. For instance, that word “understood” in your sentence that I quoted here, should be “understand” as an example.ME: thanks for the correction! 90% of the posts on heaven net need some kind of correction, I never read any correction from anyone to anyone yet! are you going to do the same in all the post you receive?
Maybe it is also the style in which you present your post…with large and small fonts, extra spaces, short and long lines of words, also, capital letters are used in ways that distract rather than clarify, imo. Maybe try writing it without all those extra efforts. Maybe it is just me but I find your posts very long and hard to follow so I just pass them by. I don’t want to come on here and try to decipher a post. If you want me to understand what you are saying, just try writing it in short paragraph form and leave the font size alone. Make your words bold if you want to emphasize them. Also, try making much shorter posts.
I’m just trying to help…I am a teacher at heart.
Me: I respect your opinion, but I have my intentions for presenting my posts like that! In that manner, as much as you pass them by, simply at a glance, others who want to read my posts, even without answering them, and I believe there are not a few, since I am interested more in revealing new things rather only the old, also at a glance, they will spot them!
Matthew 13:52 He said unto them: Therefore every scribe instructed in the kingdom of heaven, is like to a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure new things and old.
I am a scribe and a householder!
Hereunder LU is the same post written as you suggested for you to answer!
I hope!
YOU: Hi Carmel, Just as a small example, you said that which is here quoted, and you use a lot of terms that I don’t see in the scripture: Most of that doesn’t make any sense to me, sorry. I don’t know where in the Bible, you are getting those terms.
YOU: God didn’t “establish” His Son,
He begat His Son before He created anything.
Me: You didn’t quite understand what I posted, I said: First and foremost God, before He created anything, generally speaking, (1) in order to communicate,(2) established His Son,(3)His genuine eternal abode, precisely as(4)”THE WORD”
Me: In the above, I numbered, presumably what doesn’t make sense to you, so I will be in a better position to give my opinion on why I used those terms! Now God, to respect your term, begat His son on creation; let there be light! Before that instant, The Son was within the Father’s bosom! Ad intra! within God, not communicable! Once God pronounced His word, the Son left the Father, your term begat, and established Himself engrafted in the heart of the endless spirits emanated from God! Ad extra, outside of God, communicable! The kingdom of the Son to be! The beginning! Genesis 1:1
YOU: God didn’t “establish” His Son,
He begat His Son before He created anything.
Now, where in the bible one can read that God begat His Son before He created anything?
1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.
Apart from other beginnings mentioned in scripture, in the above, there are mentioned two beginnings! Both the word “BEGAT” and “the Son” are not mentioned! Only “THE WORD” is mentioned! Did God, according to you, begat “THE WORD”??? If like the majority of Christians like I do, believe that “THE WORD” is the Son, why is He called “THE WORD” in these particular beginnings? Also in which one in the above beginnings always according to you, God begat His Son, or did He begat His Son twice?
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
@t8
Could you please address LU’s post?
I’d like to hear your opinion.Are you neglecting to address this post on purpose? I will repeat it here:
PC,
You are correct, Abraham is not talking to the Father. He is talking to YHVH however. Therefore, the person who Abraham is addressing as YHVH, is not the Father but someone other than the Father. YHVH is echad which can mean that YHVH is a unity of more than one person. Hebrews 1 has the Father telling us who that other person is that is referred to as YHVH…it is the only begotten Son who the Father addressed as
O Lord,
You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11They will perish, but You remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed;
but You remain the same,
and Your years will never end.”
This OT passage gives further witness to that here:
Compare with Psalm 102
24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.25“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.27“But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.PC, who is the Father identifying as the YHVH who founded the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands?
LU
@t8
Could you please address LU’s post?
I’d like to hear your opinion.Are you neglecting to address this post on purpose? I will repeat it here:
PC,
You are correct, Abraham is not talking to the Father. He is talking to YHVH however. Therefore, the person who Abraham is addressing as YHVH, is not the Father but someone other than the Father. YHVH is echad which can mean that YHVH is a unity of more than one person. Hebrews 1 has the Father telling us who that other person is that is referred to as YHVH…it is the only begotten Son who the Father addressed as
O Lord,
You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11They will perish, but You remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed;
but You remain the same,
and Your years will never end.”
This OT passage gives further witness to that here:
Compare with Psalm 102
24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.25“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.27“But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.PC, who is the Father identifying as the YHVH who founded the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands?
LU
Hi Carmel,
Just as a small example, you said that which is here quoted, and you use a lot of terms that I don’t see in the scripture:
FIRST AND FOREMOST GOD, BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING, GENERALLY SPEAKING, IN ORDER TO COMMUNICATE, ESTABLISHED HIS SON, HIS GENUINE ETERNAL ABODE, PRECISELY AS
“THE WORD”
Most of that doesn’t make any sense to me, sorry. I don’t know where in the Bible, you are getting those terms.
YOU: God didn’t “establish” His Son, He begat His Son before He created anything.
Me: You didn’t quite understand what I posted, I said: First and foremost God, before He created anything, generally speaking,
(1) in order to communicate,
(2) established His Son,
(3)His genuine eternal abode, precisely as
(4)”THE WORD”
LU read please:
Proverbs 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways,
before he made anything from the beginning.
23 I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made.
Interliner
set up
5258 [e]
nis·saḵ·tî
נִסַּ֥כְתִּיI have been established
More to come!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel,
You said:
Carmel: thanks for the correction! 90% of the posts on heaven net need some kind of correction, I never read any correction from anyone to anyone yet!
I agree that many posts on HN could be corrected in form or grammar, etc. I’m sure mine could as well at times. I edit myself frequently 🙂
Carmel: are you going to do the same in all the post you receive?
If you have read my responses to others you would know the answer to that. It is extremely rare for me to correct grammar, spelling, form, etc. so I guess you just got lucky, ha. Thank you for taking it well, it will help your presentations in the future. Also, thank you for taking my advice of writing in a more legible way. If you want ME to read your posts that you address to me, please keep it short and to the point and reader friendly.
I will address the rest of your post sooner or later. Thanks for your humble nature.
Blessings, LU
Carmel,
I see where you get the phrase, “I was established” from. Here is another note on that Hebrew word translated as “installed” for Proverbs 8:23:
Niph`al Perfect1singular נִסַּכְתִּי Proverbs 8:23 I was installed (of Wisdom).
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5258.htm
This will be an interesting word to look into more deeply. I agree with you that Prov 8:22 + is likely a reference to the Son as “wisdom.”
More on that later.
LU
Hi Carmel,
You said: Once God pronounced His word, the Son left the Father, your term begat, and established Himself engrafted in the heart of the endless spirits emanated from God!
Where do you find that the Son “established Himself?”
In Proverbs 8:23, could it be another person that “establishes” (as you use the term) Wisdom?
LU
PC,
You said: You know you are not winning with these objections
Which objections specifically do you disagree with? You neglect to directly address some very important objections. I have posted the same post to you at least three times recently, now Danny Dabbs is posting it to you also.
It looks like you are stumped, maybe hoping it gets covered up and forgotten about.
This one for example.
Existence doesn’t happen the moment one is born, Proclaimer.
If you come into existence then you are created or born from God directly. Is there another way?
In what sense did we exist in God eternally, Proclaimer…chapter and verse, please.
And this one. I was simply running with your idea and showing that the same would be true of any being.
Proclaimer,
You said;
If you come into existence then you are created or born from God directly. Is there another way?
Well, I don’t believe the Son “came into existence,” I believe he always was in existence in some manner. He was never non-existent, before he was born/begotten, as I understand it.
Regarding the created man, he DID come into existence from non-existence.
That is why the Son could have the eternal existence reflected in the name YHVH, which the Father identifies him as, btw.
Those that did not exist at one point do not have an eternal existence and could not be referred to, or identified as YHVH. That is a big difference between the Son and created beings.
LU
@t8
LU wrote to you: “PC, who is the Father identifying as the YHVH who founded the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands?”
(Hebrews 1:10-12; Psalm 102:24-27)
Can you please address her question?
Thanks a lot.
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