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If all creation was made through the son, then how is the son a created being?
Then the thinking creeps in. He must be God.
But he was the first to be with God.
He was begotten.
He is not God.
He is the Son.
@t8
Then again some of those who believe that all things were made through the Son, seek the scriptures for more information on the matter and accept that God the Father is identifying the Son as the YHVH who is spoken of here in Hebrews 1:10 “You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands.
And add to that so many other proofs of the ONE who is YHVH our Righteousness who is spoken of as the ONE through whom all things are made. Scripture speaks clearly but the veil covers the mind of those who seek Him through their own frail intellect. God can remove the veil of the man who turns from his own way of thinking to accept the truths of the glorious gospel. When Peter said the foundational truth statement of the church, “You are the Son of God,” he was speaking of the Son as the only begotten biological Son of God, not a created Son of God. He who has the Son has eternal life. He who has the Son, that same Son gives them power to be children of God.
Many members here consider Jesus as the created Son of God. They also consider all of mankind as created sons of God. So no big deal. It doesn’t take a special revelation from the Father to believe in that way. Man’s logic says YHVH created the world alone so God must be only one person, therefore Jesus must not be God end of discussion.
But God has one biological Son and God identifies that Son as YHVH our Righteousness who founded the earth in the beginning and the heavens are the work of HIS hands. Now what do people do with that? Those who use frail logic try to show how God doesn’t really say that about the Son and then there are those who believe God and take it by faith and learn about the Unity of YHVH and believe that both the Father and the Son are involved in creation.
By faith we are saved not by our own logic. Let the word of God speak to your heart, t8.
Then again some of those who believe that all things were made through the Son, seek the scriptures for more information on the matter and accept that God the Father is identifying the Son as the YHVH who is spoken of here in Hebrews 1:10 “You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands.
Some stick to the scriptures and others with wild imaginations come up with theories and join dots that shouldn’t be joined and use third-party influences.
I prefer to believe each scripture and then give room for God to show the big picture. I am against isolating scriptures as proof and ignoring difficult scriptures.
T8. ….Most of the time, those difficult scriptures are the one people use to make them say what they are not “specifically ” saying , they don’t compare them with the rest of the “clear” Scriptures that show their conclusions were wrong. Satan loves that. MANY will not even question their learned misinformation, so they can get a clearer understanding.
That is why I like Jodi’s posts she uses not just one or two scriptures to show scriptural “truth” , but many scriptures to show it, and drives her points in using many scriptural proofs, I love that about her, and all who do that.
Some will make long posts and misquote scripture after scripture to try to prove their misguided points, not even realizing what the are writing is not even written in any of our scriptures. The thing about being decieved is that, the person deceived doesn’t even know he or she is, and most do not want to be proven wrong, but those who love the truth do want to, if they are wrong. Because they “love the truth”. BECAUSE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS “IN” THEM. They take no offense when being proven wrong.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
ME: SO THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS ALL MY HIMSELF, WITH HIS SPIRITUAL MIND
HE IS THE SERVANT THIS TIME
HE IS SERVING JESUS CHRIST John16:12-15
IT IS HIS TASK THROUGH OUR MOST BLESSED MOTHER MARY TO MAKE YOU ANOTHER JESUSYOU Sorry, I don’t speak drunkenese.
ME: I don’t blame you Mike, if for you, I spoke drunkenness, it proves that you are still on milk, and not ready for the MEAT. From the other hand, I could speak drunkenness since I spoke about the SPIRIT.
Let’s face it, you don’t even deserve an answer, Mike, the way you spoke, it’s no use to reveal to you
THE WISDOM OF GOD, AS FOR YOU IT IS SIMPLY
FOOLISHNESS!
Why didn’t you produce John16:12-15 and justified your point. That would have been something to see
WHO REALLY SPEAK DRUNKENNESS, SIGNOR Mike!
I don’t even know what the hell are you talking about!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
@t8
You said:
Some stick to the scriptures and others with wild imaginations come up with theories and join dots that shouldn’t be joined and use third-party influences.
I prefer to believe each scripture and then give room for God to show the big picture. I am against isolating scriptures as proof and ignoring difficult scriptures.
Who gives a person their imagination, t8? When in doubt, you are to test the message or the theory. This is not the way to test something: “that third party thesis probably says this or that and therefore disagrees with what I believe and therefore it is wrong” or “we can’t connect ‘those’ dots.”
Those reasons that you have been using lately, that something can’t be true, are very poor reasons my friend. You need not be afraid of a thesis, it does disagree with who you think is the “theos of this age” and you don’t want to be wrong about that, do you? Reading an opposing view can often be enlightening but you have to have an open mind and not be afraid to acknowledge that you have been wrong. For the love of truth, consider that a third party paper where the person took many hours of research to include Bible verses, history, grammar, etc. and wrote 300 or so pages about the topic might have something you can at least point out as to why he is not correct.
You also need not to be afraid of the creativity of others who are claiming that Jesus is the Son of God. Tell me why Jesus can’t be the only begotten biological Son of God or admit that it is possible at least. Test all things and tell us why they are wrong in an intelligent way. Don’t just degrade the creativity, tell me why the Son could not be a result of asexual reproduction before creation. He is either the only begotten biological Son or He is not. If you agree with that, say so. If you don’t believe that the Son of God is not the only biological Son begotten before creation, tell me why…show your reasons. Degrading the idea doesn’t show reasons, it shows that you have no reasons and therefore degrading the idea is the best you can do. It is not clever at all. Also, please tell us why connecting dots to get to the truth is wrong, don’t just mock it. That makes you look like a gas lighter. Gather your defense…prove your case and stop hiding, stop degrading. Degrading others is a coward’s way.
What I show you or link you to has the intent of helping you. I am not your enemy trying to take your time. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
LU
Who gives a person their imagination,
I said wild imagination. That is, not tamed by God or a vain imagination.
Those reasons that you have been using lately, that something can’t be true, are very poor reasons my friend. You need not be afraid of a thesis, it does disagree with who you think is the “theos of this age” and you don’t want to be wrong about that, do you?
Do not be of this world. If you love the world, then the love of God is not in you. If your God is the god of this world, then that is your choice.
You also need not to be afraid of the creativity
Love creativity. But not into being a crafty serpent.
I am not your enemy trying to take your time.
Not sure if you are or not. But my only priority is to give truth and scripture the win. If I see preaching that goes against scripture, I call it out. It’s no more complicated than that.
By faith we are saved not by our own logic. Let the word of God speak to your heart, t8.
Okay.
1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.I believe this and you do not. Because Jesus is not the God who is invisible, but the IMAGE of that invisible God.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.I believe the above scripture and you truly do not. There is one God and that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.I believe that Christ has a head, but you believe that Jesus is God. Another win for me here.
Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Again, this is what I truly believe while your confession is that there is one God the Father and Son. And that there is One Lord the Father and the Son. In the correct context, there is one God and we know that this God MADE Jesus both Christ and Lord.
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.That last scripture rebukes your teaching strongly. First off, these are Jesus Christ’s own words and they are eternal life. You teach against this with implied special revelation that God is like a cell. Totally on the wrong path with that one LU. Again, I believe that the Father is the one true God. But you do not believe Jesus because the only true God to you is Jesus and the Father. But Jesus speaks against you with his own testimony. I can only conclude that you are a false teacher. What else are we suppose to conclude when Jesus says one thing and you contradict him with another?
@t8,
Thank you for those scriptures. I will be addressing them again soon LORD willing. First though, I want to clarify something you don’t seem to understand about the cell theory. I do not think that God is like a cell. I think that looking at the cell during closed mitosis can give us insight how one organism becomes two distinct, yet identical organisms that have the same substance within them and that substance within them would be the same age for the first generation of the parent/offspring relationship. This is from a post that I made about it:
I started seriously seeking the relationship of the Father and Son and Spirit for 28+ years. I have been wrestling with it and I believe God has honored my persistence. I have a recent analogy, a picture of an actual design of asexual begetting in the simplest form. Keep in mind that it is analogy mainly to demonstrate how, from one organism, through the process of asexual reproduction (a begetting) two distinct ”persons” are established in the relationship of parent and offspring. In the following picture you can see how the offspring was every bit as much a part of the original as the parent and that the parent had a beginning at the moment that the offspring had a beginning. However, it was the relationship that began, not their substance/essence. In the case of God, their substance/essence was eternal.
Here is the picture of that analogy:
After looking at this and considering the first time this took place in creation, you can no longer say that a son can not be the same age as his father. That is my main point.
More later on the other things that God calls the Son, like “God” and “LORD” for instance and how scripture identifies the Son as YHVH our Righteousness and the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father. Those things aren’t going anywhere, you have to consider them with the other scriptures you posted.
I think that looking at the cell during closed mitosis can give us insight how one organism becomes two distinct, yet identical organisms that have the same substance within them and that substance within them would be the same age
Except there is no expectation in scripture or from the apostles to reconcile Jesus as God. So why bother?
So if there is no expectation and if Jesus even said that his Father was the only true God and that this God sent him, then that is even more reason to not get involved with the philosophy of worldly wide men and women.
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I just accept and believe Jesus Christ’s own words. His word is good enough for me, but not for others it seems.
@t8,
You said: Except there is no expectation in scripture or from the apostles to reconcile Jesus as God. So why bother?
The cell theory can give insight to John 1:1 and John 1:18 for starters.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.Two different persons are called God in each verse. One was begotten.
John 1:1 doesn’t lead us to reconcile two as God.
It simply states that the Word was with God in the beginning and that this Word was what God created all things through. The Word is theos means the Word was divine. Sharing or participating in divine nature doesn’t make you God because we can share in divine nature. John 1:1 confuses people because of the English translation. The Greek translation makes it simple.
And elsewhere we clearly read that God is invisible, the only God, the only true God, and the one that sent his son whom he made both Lord and Christ.
Scripture teaches us who Jesus is.
As for gods, they are a dime a dozen. And not all gods are false. There is the one true God. God of this world. Even Jesus said, “ye are gods”. When you understand the usage of theos, then the confusion will disappear. If Theos to you means the only true God in every instance, then yes, you will remain confused and may need to resort to mitosis, the Binity, Trinity, or some version of a polytheistic god.
Mitosis doesn’t have to make Jesus God. You see God is God not because he is divine, but because he is the Father of all, even his son.
Mitosis may help one understand how nature is shared, but as long as we realise that nature doesn’t define you as God.
God is God because of who he is, that is the Father of all.
We do not say that your child is you or part of you because of the shared DNA. No we realise that our children are unique individuals not entirely defined by their parents despite their nature. We do not say they are the parents. When you say someone is God, you are saying they are the person of God. God is not God because of a God substance. God is God because he is the Father. Jesus is not the Father.
In short, the Spirit is the Spirit OF God.
Jesus is the Son OF God.
The Father is NOT the Father OF God.
He is God.
Simple.
Hi Mike,
Here I am!
Carmel: Jodi, first of all, IGNOR COMPLETELY YOUR HUMAN MENTALITY…
YOU: With what, then, will we understand scripture? I understand that spirit can reveal heavenly things to us. But we still decipher and make sense of those things with our God-given human mentality. We have nothing else by which to make sense of them.
Carmel, people have been saying “you must understand it spiritually, not carnally” for centuries. I’ve noticed that the people who say this are always the ones arguing for completely nonsensical doctrines that can’t possibly be backed up by a sensible and rational understanding of the scriptures. If your doctrine requires you to claim that it doesn’t make sense to human mentality, then I’m pretty sure your doctrine is just plain wrong. Jehovah is not a god of confusion, and the scriptures were written for the benefit of human beings – not spiritual angels. Therefore they must be able to make sense TO human beings. Otherwise they’re useless.
ME: I couldn’t agree with you more. I have addressed this similarly to Carmel a few times. I say the scriptures were written by men through the Holy Spirit to give us the direct truth. I also say that certain passages are more clearly understood through what other passages say. As you probably know, Carmel believes that certain scriptures hold hidden meanings and you can only see those hidden meanings if you have God’s Spirit telling you what those secrets are. As he constantly tells me I am being carnally minded, all I can say is that I am only going to debate over that which is actually written.
Others also believe in hidden meanings and they have a different doctrine than Carmel. So who then actually has the Spirit upon them giving them the true understanding to those hidden meanings they believe exist, where others don’t see it? There is no actual debating of scripture in this situation, there is no confidence in the word, no confidence that Apostle Paul and others were teaching us the truth. Carmel wants us to have confidence in him, that he has been sent to us by God to reveal to us that Paul wrote in code and he is a chosen decoder. This makes debating with him, as to what scripture says and does not say, impossible, a waist of time.
Hi Mike,
ME: Can someone explain,
Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.
Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?
YOU: Thanks, Jodi
It’s not two different “God’s Sons”, Jodi. Jesus was the firstborn Son of God long before the other angels or our world was created. Jesus was “created as the first of God’s works”, and was “the beginning of the creation by God”. So he was already the only begotten Son of God long before he was sent into the world. God’s Son was then born on earth as a human being by a combination of Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.Romans 8:3
For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.See? Jesus was already God’s Son before. But THEN God sent His son to be born of a woman and dwell on earth in the likeness of sinful man… ie: the Word who was with God in the beginning BECAME flesh.ME: I put in bold that which directly addressed my question, however I am still a little unclear. “A combination of Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary”, so Jesus was combination of the Holy Spirit and Mary? Where does the already existing Son come in then? Or are you saying that the power of the Holy Spirit combined the already existing Son with Mary?…which that I can’t wrap my brain around.
My understanding is that the man Jesus was born again, the Spirit came upon him and did so not by measure, said to be an anointing, and upon that anointing he was SENT. The prophecy of this also further states the promise of a calling to righteousness where God is going to direct all his ways. Paul teaches us that we are joint heirs with the anointed, being also heirs of God. Jesus said that we shall drink of the same cup and be baptized with the same baptism that he was. Jesus said he needed to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Paul explains in the same chapter that those who are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God, and that the Spirit bears witness to our Spirit that we are children of God. Paul also teaches that Jesus was made of the seed of David and declared to be God’s Son according to the Spirit, and no doubt an eternal Son at that by his resurrection from the dead.
Mike, prophecy was that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God becomes a Father unto him. God became a Father unto Jesus when he was born again at his baptism, God did declare at that moment that this was who His Son was, the man who left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit and then was LED by the Spirit into the wilderness where he did not fail because God was directing all his ways.
I’m trying to make this short!! This anointed Jesus having the Spirit upon him, could be tempted but with God directing all his ways he would never give into temptation and sin. As we are told in prophecy he would be called to righteousness and God would hold his hand and keep him for to fulfill God’s covenant, for him to be a light to the world. This anointed man was SENT out to preach, to deliver captives from darkness, to set us at liberty, to obey all of God’s commands even going to the cross to die, all being able to do so because he was being LED by the Spirit of God, and thus was the Son that was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, as he was a man who could be tempted like all men, but because he was being fully led by God he could not sin.
Mike, it is the Spirit that gives life right?…and the flesh profits nothing, and we are also told by John that the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Jesus was called to righteousness, Jesus received the Spirit and was sent, bringing forth life to the world by God forgiving us through this man who He anointed with His Spirit! Jesus was the ONLY mortal man to have received the Spirit not by measure, by such he was God’s only begotten Son. His resurrection is our resurrection, he was raised no longer an only begotten Son but a Son firstborn of many others to come. As he is a Son according to the Spirit we are to be children of God according to the Spirit also. As Ezekiel says that God is going to give us a new spirit a new heart of flesh and place His Spirit upon us and cause us to walk in ALL of God’s ways, we will be joint heirs with the anointed Jesus, heirs of God’s Spirit as he is, where God’s Spirit bears witness to our spirit (as it does for Jesus), that we are children of God.
Jesus is the son of David who will sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh, being one of many Sons of God according to the Spirit.
Jodi…..AMEN, Carmel’s so-called “spiritual understandings”, are manufactured in his own mind, which he proberly recieved from other fasle teachers, many of them completely go against sound Doctrines and scriptures.
No one can ever come to a concensus when someone just ignores direct quoted scriptures and then add their own private inputations, as to what they “clearly say”.
Ti 1:7……For God has not given us the Spirit of fear; but of “power” and of “love”, and a “sound mind”.
I wish Carmel would just stop and think he may see some things correctly, sad.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
@t8
You said:
John 1:1 doesn’t lead us to reconcile two as God.
It simply states that the Word was with God in the beginning and that this Word was what God created all things through. The Word is theos means the Word was divine.
You have been told many times that the theos in “the word was theos” is a noun. You keep using it as an adjective. See here:
N-NMS means Noun, Nomitave, Masculine, Singular.
To continue in error, your arguments based on this thinking have been built on error.
@y8
You said:
As for gods, they are a dime a dozen. And not all gods are false. There is the one true God. God of this world. Even Jesus said, “ye are gods”. When you understand the usage of theos, then the confusion will disappear. If Theos to you means the only true God in every instance, then yes, you will remain confused and may need to resort to mitosis, the Binity, Trinity, or some version of a polytheistic god.
You claim that satan is the god of this world. Did you change your mind? Also, do you claim that Jesus is a god? The word theos is used for Jesus, you know.
And, no, theos to me doesn’t mean the true God in every instance.
Hi Jodi,
YOU: Carmel, people have been saying “you must understand it spiritually, not carnally” for centuries. I’ve noticed that the people who say this are always the ones arguing for completely nonsensical doctrines that can’t possibly be backed up by a sensible and rational understanding of the scriptures.
Isaiah 55:For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,
so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
Now Jodi, using our mentality
WE WILL NEVER AGREE OF THE ABOVE TRUTH!
Now with respect of the above scriptures we are
completely opposite of God in every sense
including our mentality!
When we want to do something, we organize ourselves and start working on it till we achieve what we had in mind!
As soon as we achieve what we had in mind we enjoy ourselves living with it. TILL WHAT?
WE THROW IT AWAY SIMPLY BECAUSE ACCORDING TO OUR MENTALITY IT COULD BE DONE BETTER EVEN STILL, AND FOR US HUMANS AFTER MORE THAT 6000 YEARS IT IS
A NEVER-ENDING STORY!
GOD DOES THINGS ONLY ONCE AND it’s THERE FOR ETERNITY!
WE NEVER NEVER NEVER EVEN ACCEPT IT WHILE LIVING ON THIS CORRUPTED PLANET
NEVER MIND SEE IT WITH OUR CORRUPTED
MENTALITY!
GOD BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING HE ESTABLISHED HIS EMBODIMENT OF
JESUS CHRIST
FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE
SIMPLY TO MOVE,
AS GOD, WHO OCCUPIED THE ETERNAL INFINITE EXISTENCE WAS NOT IN THE NEED TO MOVE, THUS
GOD LACKED MOVEMENT!
THIS EMBODIMENT OF JESUS CHRIST, GOD,
WAS HIDDEN FROM THE HEAVENLY REALMS FOR A PROBATION PERIOD! FOR US ENDLESS TIME!
SIMPLY AS GOD GAVE FREE WILL TO THE HEAVENLY REALMS IN ORDER TO ACCEPT GOD’S WILL.
TO ACCEPT GOD
MAN IN JESUS CHRIST,
AND
BE SUBJECT TO HIM and HIS MOTHER!
DESPITE HIS MOTHER WAS NOT YET CREATED, AS MUCH AS HUMANS WERE NOT!
The rebel occurred, and God went backwards simply for the.
TRUTH
TO ESTABLISH JESUS CHRIST AS MAN ON EARTH
FIRST AND FOREMOST!
THEN AS SOON AS HE DID SO!
HE WENT TO HEAVEN GLORIFIED ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN!
OK LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!
FOR GOD IN JESUS CHRIST TO BE ACCEPTED AS
HE WAS BEFORE THE VERY BEGINNING IN HEAVEN,
HE EMPTIED HIMSELF, BECAME DUST, IN A WAY, LIKE HIS BRETHREN, IN A WAY, WHILE HE NEVER LOST HIS EXISTENCE IN HEAVEN,
HE DIED, IN A WAY, HE BECAME ALIVE IN A WAY, HE ESTABLISHED HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH, IN A WAY, WENT BACK TO HEAVEN
GLORIFIED AS
OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER JESUS CHRIST
WHERE HE WAS ETERNALLY AND IS NOW WAITING FOR THAT MOST PRECIOUS MOMENT WHEN ALL THE HUMAN RACE WOULD BE SAVED BY
THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ON EARTH SIMPLY TO ESTABLISH
TRUTH AGAIN ON EARTH!
once and for all
WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED BUT NOT ACCEPTED
WHEN JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS!
NOW USING YOUR MENTALITY! which all of you, with every respect would never agree among yourselves,
TELL ME WHAT MORE TRUTH IS THERE TO ESTABLISH ON EARTH IN ORDER FOR
THE HUMAN RACE WOULD FINALLY
BE SAVED
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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