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Mike……Sorry it was Cyrus, not Darius that God prophesied about before he was even born, about 200 hundred years before. Isa 45:1-4
But no one applies a preexistence life to him, why?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Berean…..Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Jesus, question, why would Abraham rejoice to see the day of Jesus, if Jesus already was alive in his day? Was he off hiding somewhere or what? “No one” has ever shown any activity, of Jesus in heaven or on earth, before his birth on this earth.
Has anyone ever explained that? As far a Jesus saying he was “alive” before Abraham, no scripture says that. The Jews were trying to show Jesus how important to God they were, being childern of Abraham. Jesus was showing them he was more important then Abraham was. He was in the plan and will of GOD before Abraham ever existed, he was in Gods Plan before he ever created any man on this earth.
He is significant because he represent what God had in mind for his human creation from the very beginning of creation. Jesus is the finish product of what God the Father had and has in mind for us all. But none of that ever made Jesus a live prexisting being of anykind.
If that were true , it would completely destroy God the Father work in mankind. Not to even mention Jesus would not have quilified to pay any sin debt for humanity at all.
No scripture say GOD LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR ANYONE. If God were to die then all life would cease to exist for ever.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Hi Mike,
YOU: Get it? God GAVE him the glory. (ME: JESUS WAS ALREADY A MAN IN FLESH IN HEAVEN)
LUCIFER REBELLED; NEVER ACCEPTED TO BE SUBJECT TO
A MAN DESPITE DIVINE)
YOU: Jesus EMPTIED himself of the glory. ( ME: SIMPLY TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF THE TRUTH OF WHAT HE WAS, AND REDEEM ALL THOSE ANGELS LOST DUE TO THE REBEL:
US
YOU: Jesus asks to be RETURNED to the glory that he had been previously GIVEN (past tense), ME: NO MIKE, JESUS SIMPLY ASKED THE FATHER TO HAVE THAT SAME GLORY WHICH HE HAD IN HEAVEN, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, BUT THIS TIME ALSO
ON EARTH, SATAN’S PROPERTY UP TO THIS DAY! FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH, AND REDEMPTION!
GODMAN ON EARTH
YOU: but no longer possessed on earth. (JESUS NEVER LOST HIS ORIGINAL GLORY AS MAN IN FLESH! HE REMAINED UNKNOWN! TO ALL HEAVENLY REALMS. CONFIRMED IN
JOHN: 1:30 This is he of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: (JESUS WAS PREFERRED BEFORE JOHN (MICHAEL) TO BECOME MAN IN HEAVEN! because he was before me. (ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER)
31And I knew him not: ( JESUS PURPOSELY WAS UNKNOWN IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED FIRST BY THE HEAVENLY REALMS)
but that he may be made manifest in Israel, ( OFFICIALLY MANIFESTED AS MAN PRECISELY IN ISRAEL, LUCIFER’S SPIRIT)
therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven; and he remained upon him.
33And I knew him not:
IN THE SAME WAY, MIKE,
THAT HE IS IN HEAVEN NOW AND ALSO IN
YOU MIKE, (BELIEVE IT OR NOT MIKE, YOU ARE ANOTHER JESUS) AND IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE! JESUS IS THE PROPRIETOR OF HUMANITY! HE GAVE US
LIFE (WE ARE HIS MORE THAN THE FATHER’S)
THE FACT THAT HE CAME TO ESTABLISH HIMSELF ALSO ON EARTH AS
THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!
IN FLESH (John 17:2)
DESPITE MORTAL!
SIMPLY TO OFFICIALLY OWN TOTAL CONTROL OVER DEATH!
SATAN MIKE WAS IN THE POSITION TO KILL DELIBERATELY WHOEVER HE WANTS,
UNLESS GOD INSTRUCTS HIM NOT TO, LIKE IN THE CASE OF JOB. CONFIRMED BY JESUS IN
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil: and the desires of your father you will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning:
Lucifer Mike commenced his rebellion when he flooded the first world! Confirmed in
Ecc.1:10 Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new:
for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us. (Noah’s flood was the second flood)
SATAN CONSIDERED HIMSELF AUTONOMOUS! UNLESS GOD MANIFESTS ON EARTH LUCIFER/SATAN’S CREATION, OTHERWISE! THE FACT THAT JESUS ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BE KILLED. FOR THE SAKE OF
TRUTH
HE KILLED ABEL! SIMPLY AS ABEL WAS NOT BORN THROUGH SEX! LIKE JESUS WAS! LIKE ISAAC WAS, LIKE JOHN WAS, AND OTHERS WERE! AND THEY WERE NOT KILLED AS GOD SIMPLY USED SUPERNATURAL BIRTHS, THROUGH BARREN WOMEN OF WHICH SATAN HAD NO RIGHTS.
Carmel, if you are unable to understand this very simple matter, then I’m not sure I can help you with more complicated matters.
MIKE if you are unable to accept God’s wisdom, I cannot help you, but you can
ASK, KNOCK, AND SEARCH, THE HOLY SPIRIT!
James 1:5 But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to all men abundantly and upbraideth not. And it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, which is moved and carried about by the wind. 7Therefore let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is inconstant in all his ways.
Now Mike here it is again:
YOU: Sure it does. Hey Carmel, next week I’ll be chilling in the south of Spain. It is my wish that you will also be where I am so you can chill with me.
POOR MIKE,
Again you put God in the same
BASKET OF YOUR OWN MENTALITY:
Unless you go to Spain Mike,
YOU WILL NEVER BE CHILLING!
JESUS ALREADY HAD THAT GLORY,
A MAN IN FLESH
HE CAME TO EARTH FOR OUR SAKE, AND TRUTH!
HE NEVER NEEDED TO COME,
IN THE SAME WAY, YOU HAVE TO GO TO SPAIN SO YOU CAN ENJOY YOUR
CHILLINGRead hereunder:
that they may see my glory which
thou hast given me,( ALREADY A MAN IN FLESH)
In the above Jesus already had this particular glory! SINCE IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PRESENT PERFECT!
So let’s start again:
John17:24 Father, I will that where I am, (RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, ALREADY IN THIS PARTICULAR GLORY, IN HEAVEN, EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS PHYSICALLY
AS MAN!
John3:13And NO MAN hath ascended into heaven, but
HE
(THE MAN)
that descended from heaven,
THE SON OF MAN, WHO IS IN HEAVEN
OK MIKE JESUS WAS A PHYSICAL BEING ALREADY!
A MAN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, IN HIS GLORY WITH THE FATHER!
THE FACT THAT GOD CREATED THE MAN
IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS! THUS:
they also whom thou hast given me may be with me:
that they may see my glory which thou hast given me
( AS MAN, THE SON OF MAN, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, ASSERTED HEREUNDER)
because thou hast loved me (AS MAN IN FLESH) before the creation of the world.
POOR MIKE!
YOU CAN ONLY SEE UP TO YOUR CARNAL NOSE. WITH EVERY RESPECT!
READ ONE MORE TRUTH:
John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
A MAN IN FLESH!
Isaiah 6:1 And I said: (ME) Woe is me, because I have held my peace;
because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, (YOU MIKE, JODI, and GENE) and
I have seen with my eyes (IN SCRIPTURE)
the King the Lord of hosts.
OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER JESUS CHRIST ISAIAH 9:6
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel…..problem is the word “return” is not there, why do you constantly add words to our text, to justify you false beliefs. The word of God stands on its own it doesn’t need you to change it and alter what it says, by forcing the text, trying to make it say something it clearly does not say. You are a true “trinitarian ” that’s for sure. Full of delusions and false teachings because of not loving the truth, you have received a deluding spirit. 2ths2.
Long posts changing texts and forcing them to say things they are not saying is hardly a sign of a person true to the word of God. IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Gene,
You said: There is not one scripture that says Jesus “prexisted” his actual existence on this earth, there is not I NE scripture that shows “any” activity, of him pryor to his birth on this earth.
Gene, who do you think Abraham is having a face to face conversation with in this passage:
Genesis 18
22And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah. 23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou consume the righteous with the wicked? 24Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou consume and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26And Jehovah said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sake. 27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, who am but dust and ashes: 28peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five. 29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for the forty’s sake. 30And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the twenty’s sake. 32And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the ten’s sake. 33And Jehovah went his way, as soon as he had left off communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Please read it through carefully and then respond, Gene. Thank you! LU
Hi Jodi,
YOU: Can someone explain,
Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.
Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?
ME:
Philippians 2:5For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:(BEFORE THE WORLD WAS)
6Who being in the form of God, (ALREADY IN THE FLESH) thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But emptied himself, ( FROM HIS GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST)
taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
8He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
9For which cause, God also hath exalted him and hath given him a name which is above all names:
10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11And that every tongue should confess that
the Lord Jesus Christ
IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.
In the above Jodi, you have a clear scripture which ANSWERS your question!
JESUS WAS GOD, UNKNOWN TO THE HEAVENLY REALMS, IN THE PROBATION PERIOD, AS A TEST FOR THEIR LOYALTY TO GOD.
A TEST WHICH FAILED AND COMMENCED THE REBELLION OF LUCIFER.
NOW Jodi, Jesus Christ from His Glory of God, before the world was,
EMPTIED HIMSELF FROM HIS GLORY OF GOD AND AS A SPIRIT started His redemption process to bring back TO GOD the lost angels who rebelled
US
WHILE HE REMAINED IN HIS GLORY!
AS GODMAN IN FLESH
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but
he that descended from heaven,
the Son of man
who is in heaven.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike: What does the word “OF” mean to you? For example, Solomon was the son OF David, right? Was Solomon “David the Son“?
Carmel: Herod is the son of Herod the great
Herod the Son.
Do you know why? Simple; AS THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME NAME, LIKEWISEJESUS IS ALSO GOD
Ah, I should have used the title to better make my point – since “God” is a title. So David was “The King of Israel”. Solomon was David’s son. Was Solomon “the son of the King of Israel”? Or “King of Israel the Son”? “Son of the King”? Or “King the Son”? Which one?
And no, the Son and his God most certainly do not have the same name. YHWH is the name of the Most High God of gods. Jesus is the name of His Son, Holy Servant, Anointed One, Priest, Mediator, Sacrificial Lamb, Prophet, etc. It’s true that Jesus’ God has since given Jesus an even better name, but that new name is still not YHWH.
Carmel: JESUS IS THE ACTUAL HEART OF GOD!
Scripture, please? (Because in Matthew 15, it is clear that Jesus speaks of mankind, using the Greek word “anthrópos” multiple times in that teaching.)
Carmel: ACCORDING TO YOU THE ONE WHO GIVES IS GREATER!
John 16:15 All things
whatsoever the Father hath are mine. Therefore I said that
he shall RECEIVE of me……
WHO GAVE MIKE?JESUS!
WHO RECEIVED ALL THINGS MIKE?THE FATHER!
WHO IS GREATER MIKE?JESUS!
Wait a minute… you think that in John 16, Jesus is talking about the Father asking him for something, and Jesus giving it? Seriously? Surely you realize that Jesus is talking about his DISCIPLES asking, and Jesus giving it to them, right? But then, according to your logic, that makes Jesus OUR servant! 😉
Carmel: Notice what Jesus said;
“I and the Father are one.”
Does that sound familiar? Jesus is not simply stating that He and the Father are of the same essence, although that is true. Jesus is not simply stating that He is God, although that is true.The reason the Jews wanted to stone Him on the spot and the reason why the Jews were so offended is simple:
Jesus said that
He is as much
the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4 as YHWH is
the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4.So in your mind, Jesus is actually saying that the Son and the Father are literally one? So in essence, the Father IS the Son, and the Son IS the Father? Come on, man. But then it gets worse…
John 17:21-22
…that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one…
Now the Father IS the Son… who IS all of the disciples… who also ARE the Father Himself, etc. 😎 The Father, the Son, and Jesus’ disciples are all the same exact “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4? Carmel, I don’t know how or when you allowed yourself to veer so far from scriptural truth, but the majority of the things you post are simply nonsensical to a rational mind. (I know, I know… it’s because my mind is carnal and wicked and mad, right?)
Jodi: The Son of Man exalted to God’s right hand Jesus the son of David, was a firstborn HEIR to this PROMISE.
Okay, so you have no rational answer for why Jesus would be asking his and our God for a glory that he HAD alongside/with/from God before the world began. You only have the irrational argument that people can ask for things they say they HAD – despite them never actually having HAD those things before. So let’s jump to John 1 for a minute…
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made, and without him nothing was made that has been made.
“The Word” in verse 1 is clearly the person Jesus – which will become undeniable as we meticulously examine the rest of the verses in the chapter. But let’s set a starting point… I believe (know) John is speaking about JESUS having been with God in the beginning, and God making all things through His firstborn Son, Jesus.
What or who do YOU believe John is referring to by “the logos” here?
Hi Mike,
You have been gone for a while and I know you were interested in this quest regarding the prayer in Acts 4 so I am pasting my post to you from back then so you don’t miss it:
Mike,
You asked:
The prayer mentions the creation, right?
1. Did Jesus’ apostles pray to the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)
2. Is Jesus the one to whom they prayed? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)
.
My response:
Yes, Mike, the prayer mentions the creation.Jesus’ apostles prayed to Jehovah which is the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit whom they called LORD, who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
Jesus was the member of the Jehovah unity that was sent to be the Messiah that the apostles regarded as “Your holy servant Jesus” in Acts 4.
Can we move on now?LU
Carmel: 27For of a truth there assembled together in this city against thy holy child [SERVANT] Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, 28To do what thy hand and thy counsel decreed to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants that with all confidence they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thy hand to cures and signs and wonders, to be done by the name of thy holy Son [SERVANT], Jesus.
It’s clear the KJV is trying hard to NOT label Jesus as a SERVANT of his and our God, you know, the one they prayed to… the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. I would suggest that you try a better translation of that passage. Or you could even use the same KJV translation, but just look at how the same word is translated in different passages – where the translators are not trying to avoid calling someone a servant. Here’s one of them…
Matthew 12:15-18 KJV
But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen…
It is the same Greek word in the above verse, yet the KJV translators render it as “servant”, not “child” or “son”. Why do you suppose that is, Carmel? But this one shows their bias even more clearly…
Acts 4:25 KJV
Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
That one is the same Greek word – within the SAME EXACT PRAYER! 😁 So why would the KJV translators render the word as “servant” when it refers to King David, but then go out of their way to NOT render it as “servant” in the same exact passage when it spoke of Jesus?
Like I said… try a better translation of that prayer. So let’s begin again…
- The apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, right?
- The apostles were NOT praying to Jesus – which means Jesus is NOT the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
- The apostles identified Jesus as the holy servant OF the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF God the Creator of all things.
End of story.
LU: Jesus’ apostles prayed to Jehovah which is the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit whom they called LORD, who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
Jesus was the member of the Jehovah unity that was sent to be the Messiah that the apostles regarded as “Your holy servant Jesus” in Acts 4.
Can we move on now?Hey, perfect timing Kathi! I was just talking about that prayer with Carmel.
Okay, so your understanding is that the apostles prayed to a unity of the Father and Jesus, but then identified Jesus as the holy servant OF the unity of the Father and Jesus? Is that right?
(What if you were forced at gunpoint to answer this riddle without resorting to mental gymnastics and philosophies about cells dividing and whatnot? What if you had no choice but to address this prayer in the most logical, straightforward way it could be understood? What if you were compelled to admit that this prayer clearly and undeniably proves that the apostles of Jesus did NOT consider him the God who created all things – but rather the holy servant OF the God who created all things? That’s a response I’d love to see. 😎)
Jodi: I would like to know what is the glory that you believe Jesus had, that you believe he received back?
Jesus had great glory on earth as God’s only begotten Son who was sent into the world. But that glory was nothing compared to the glory he emptied himself of (Phil 2 – which we’ll hopefully discuss later). The difference in the two amounts of glory are emphasized in the transfiguration event. Before he transfigured, Jesus as the Son of God on earth still had a great deal of glory. But while transfigured, a couple apostles got to catch a glimpse of the far greater glory Jesus had (and now has again) before he emptied himself to be made as a human being.
So it was the shining-brighter-than-the-sun glory that Jesus left behind when he came into the world… and it was this glory that he was asking God to return him to.
Mike, not quite…
You said:
Okay, so your understanding is that the apostles prayed to a unity of the Father and Jesus, but then identified Jesus as the holy servant OF the unity of the Father and Jesus? Is that right?
If your response there said this:
Okay, so your understanding is that the apostles prayed to YHVH, the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but then identified a member of that unity, who is the Son, as the “holy servant Jesus” which he is often called in his role as the Messiah, btw, and elsewhere as “YHVH our Righteousness”.
If your response was that, then you would be correct. You might be interested that the early martyrs did believe in the deity of the holy servant Jesus when they were threatened with death.
Notice I did not mention cells at all, btw. I guess I would be among the martyrs. May God give me the courage of Polycarp and a quick death and an even quicker transfer to the presence of the LORD if that happens.
LU
LU: The Father’s revelation to mankind is dependent on the will of the Son. Therefore, the Father depends on the will of the Son in that case. Clearly the Father needs Jesus in order to be revealed.
Both of your examples are so far from what we’re actually talking about that they hardly deserve a response from me. Your examples include God GIVING something to Jesus, and God REVEALING things to Jesus. Clearly God already HAD the things He GAVE to Jesus, and already KNEW the things He REVEALED to Jesus, right?
When has the opposite ever been the case? When has Jesus GIVEN power, authority, position or revelation TO his and our God? Never. Because God can (and sometimes does) stuff without Jesus, but Jesus himself tells us that he can do NOTHING apart from his God. That is the point. God has the power and the wisdom, and GIVES some of it to His holy servant Jesus. There is no “co-equal unity” here. There is a Master – and His servant… with whom the Master is well pleased, and to whom He gives many good things.
Mike,
Do you believe that YHVH and his “ARM” aka “YHVH our Righteousness” are in disunity? Yes or no?
Jodi: Can someone explain,
Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.
Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?
Thanks, Jodi
It’s not two different “God’s Sons”, Jodi. Jesus was the firstborn Son of God long before the other angels or our world was created. Jesus was “created as the first of God’s works”, and was “the beginning of the creation by God”. So he was already the only begotten Son of God long before he was sent into the world. God’s Son was then born on earth as a human being by a combination of Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.
Romans 8:3
For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.See? Jesus was already God’s Son before. But THEN God sent His son to be born of a woman and dwell on earth in the likeness of sinful man… ie: the Word who was with God in the beginning BECAME flesh.
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