In the Beginning

Blocked

Okay guys,

It seems like Kerwin, Gene, and 2B are all running off in different directions, doing anything they can to AVOID addressing my posts. The answer lies in the words of John, chapter 1. I now see we will have to get to these answers verse by verse. So, here we go again, but much slower…………………

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God………..

Do we all agree that John is writing about the Word of God in this verse? YES or NO? Gene? Kerwin? 2B?

John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.

Do we all still agree that John is writing about the Word of God in verse 2? YES or NO? Gene? Kerwin? 2B?

December 22, 2012 at 5:55 pm#325089

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2012,11:05)

Mike………..That light was coming into the world, it was not there yet but Jesus was there right. so when did it come into the world ?

John 6:14 Young's Literal Translation
The men, then, having seen the sign that Jesus did, said — 'This is truly the Prophet, who is coming to the world;'

John 11:27 Young's Literal Translation
believest thou this?' she saith to him, 'Yes, sir, I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming to the world.'

Also, compare John 1:10, which immediately after saying this light was “coming” into the world, says, He was in the world.

Anyway, I'm trying to avoid the distractions here, Gene. I really want to go through John's words, a little at a time, and see where exactly you guys begin to understand things differently from me. Please answer my last post with just “YES” or “NO” on each verse.

December 22, 2012 at 6:10 pm#325091

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2012,03:41)

Okay guys,

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God………..

Do we all agree that John is writing about the Word of God in this verse? YES or NO? Gene? Kerwin? 2B?

John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.

Do we all still agree that John is writing about the Word of God in verse 2? YES or NO? Gene? Kerwin? 2B?

Mike………….Yes to point one , but you left off the rest and the word “WAS” God. Let don't part out a scripture but quote it completely brother.

Your second point is in error because the Word (HE) used there can be translated just as easily, as “IT” saying He changes the sentence to imply a Person and this is your error, A word is not a “He” Mike , it is an “IT”.

So if you refuse to change “HE” to and “IT” then you are forcing the text. Because the term Word in any language is a “IT” that is if youy are going to follow the true context of the sentence.

You see Mike it should be better translated as “it” was, in the beginning with God , and because a person and his words are one and the same so is the “IT” as the (word) and GOD.

Remember God Spoke (WORDS) and they were created, did He (GOD) not SAY THESE (words) “Let there be Light and it was So”?

WE certainly do agree that John was talking about the Word of God. But that word was not a “seperate” Person Mike, “IT” was God.

Peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………gene

December 22, 2012 at 6:22 pm#325095

Participant

Mike………..Please don't ask for us a yes, no, answer because that will give you a great advantage like is stated above you did not quote the complete sentence in John 1:1, and there are specific Point we need to address in it. A simple yes, no , only put you in the driver seat. IMO We must say yes or no using our explanations for agreeing or not agreeing . So like i mentioned above can you see where the Word used for “HE” can be just as easly written as “IT”, and especiallywith reguards to the over all concept of what John was refferencing (the beginning)? This is a good starting point Mike.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………….gene

December 22, 2012 at 6:23 pm#325096

Blocked

The word translated as “HE” is translated such because it was written in the Greek singular MASCULINE form. For the word to be “IT”, it would need to be written in the Greek NEUTER form. But it was written in the MASCULINE form, not the NEUTER form. That is why it is translated into English as “HE”. The English translators are simply following the form in which it was written in Greek.

I do acknowledge your answer of “YES” to both verses. I will wait for Kerwin and 2B to acknowledge the same before moving on to verse 3.

December 22, 2012 at 7:49 pm#325103

Participant

MIke……..Forget the translators The singular Masculine can also be and it if attached to a simgular Item as in this case Why? Because of the preceeding text (in the Beinning) that qualified the word as a “IT” and even if you uses it as a Masculine it still is would be the representive of the one Being mention there and that is GOD himself.

You need to Show where God and His word or words are different before you can even beging to have a point. So my answer is Yes to one part and No to the other. OK.

I could post tons of Scriptures that Show God and his word is one and the Same thing. But i am trying my best to keep it simple here. Mike why do you think that even “TRINITARIAN” Scholars say they can't use John 1:1 as a Proof text as to Christ preexsistence , why do you think they say that Mike?. It is becasue the context of the sentence can mean in the beginning of ALL Things not just the creation of what is in the earth but even the It was, it was the Spiirit of God that moved over the earth and it was God that spoke, not any assistant or mini gods or angel but God the Father himself spoke.

proof text………John 17:6…….> I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept “thy” word Vers 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou gavest me are “of thee”. Verse 8…> For i have given unto them the “words' which “YOU GAVEST ME”. and they have kept ” THY WORD”.

Now if Jesus was the word then Jesus gave himslef to them. But it doesn;t say that Mike , Jesus said he gave them (GOD'S WORD)

One more request for you to do , if you have eSword type in “thy Word” and read them and if you can't see God and His Words are one and the same thing them i don't know what can convience you brother.

peace and love to you and your…………………gene

December 22, 2012 at 9:20 pm#325108

http://biblos.com/john/14-24.htm

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2012,05:41)

Okay guys,

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God………..

Do we all agree that John is writing about the Word of God in this verse? YES or NO? Gene? Kerwin? 2B?

Yes. “John” is speaking about the word (logos)of God.

Quote

John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.

Do we all still agree that John is writing about the Word of God in verse 2? YES or NO? Gene? Kerwin? 2B?

Yes again.

He who does not love me does not keep my word (logos); and the word (logos) which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

—————-

When anyone hears the word (logos) of the kingdom …..

http://biblos.com/matthew/13-19.htm

Why neither thought I myself worthy to come to you: but say in a word (logos) and my servant shall be healed.

http://biblos.com/luke/7-7.htm

But he said to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word (logos) of God and do it.”

http://biblos.com/luke/8-21.htm

When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word (logos) which Jesus had spoken.

http://biblos.com/john/2-22.htm

Jesus said to him, “Go; your son will live.” The man believed the word (logos) that Jesus spoke to him and went his way.

http://biblos.com/john/4-50.htm

It was that the word (logos) spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

http://biblos.com/john/12-38.htm

Remember the word (logos) that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word (logos), they will keep yours also.

http://biblos.com/john/15-20.htm

————-

It is all the same word used in these verses.Strongs 3056. And these are just a few examples. I can find more.

December 22, 2012 at 9:43 pm#325109

Participant

1 Peter – Chapter 2 –

20 He was marked out before the world was made, and was revealed at the final point of time for your sake.

21 Through him you now have faith in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory for this very purpose — that your faith and hope should be in God.

22 Since by your obedience to the truth you have purified yourselves so that you can experience the genuine love of brothers, love each other intensely from the heart;

23 for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God.

24 For all humanity is grass, and all its beauty like the wild flower's. As grass withers, the flower fades,

25 but the Word of the Lord remains for ever. And this Word is the Good News that has been brought to you.

December 22, 2012 at 9:47 pm#325110

http://www.catholic.org/bible/

Participant

Just as a sidenote I have been using an older Bible at home over the past few days The Jerusalem Bible which is a very literal translation of the Greek; Hebrew; and Aramaic and also has God's name in it. I like it! It is available online here:

It is Catholic.

December 22, 2012 at 10:08 pm#325112

http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=27&bible_chapter=1

Participant

As another sidenote in the book of Wisdom which is in the Jerusalem Bible, Wisdom is the Holy Spirit of God.

Wisdom – Chapter 1 –

1 Love uprightness you who are rulers on earth, be properly disposed towards the Lord and seek him in simplicity of heart;

2 for he will be found by those who do not put him to the test, revealing himself to those who do not mistrust him.

3 Perverse thoughts, however, separate people from God, and power, when put to the test, confounds the stupid.

4 Wisdom will never enter the soul of a wrong-doer, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin;

5 for the holy spirit of instruction flees deceitfulness, recoils from unintelligent thoughts, is thwarted by the onset of vice.

6 Wisdom is a spirit friendly to humanity, though she will not let a blasphemer's words go unpunished; since God observes the very soul and accurately surveys the heart, listening to every word.

7 For the spirit of the Lord fills the world, and that which holds everything together knows every word said.

December 23, 2012 at 2:54 am#325118

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 23 2012,04:10)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2012,03:41)

Okay guys,

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God………..

Do we all agree that John is writing about the Word of God in this verse? YES or NO? Gene? Kerwin? 2B?

John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.

Do we all still agree that John is writing about the Word of God in verse 2? YES or NO? Gene? Kerwin? 2B?

Mike………….Yes to point one , but you left off the rest and the word “WAS” God. Let don't part out a scripture but quote it completely brother.

You see Mike it should be better translated as “it” was, in the beginning with God , and because a person and his words are one and the same so is the “IT” as the (word) and GOD.

Remember God Spoke (WORDS) and they were created, did He (GOD) not SAY THESE (words) “Let there be Light and it was So”?

WE certainly do agree that John was talking about the Word of God. But that word was not a “seperate” Person Mike, “IT” was God.

Peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………gene

Anything that consist in God can never be addressed as IT.
This is being disrespectful to the creator.

God is not an IT; his Word is not an IT; for all was made by Him; The Holyspirit is not an IT; for all knowledge is from him.All these is from God,He is the source of all.

wakeup.

December 23, 2012 at 9:23 am#325122

Participant

Hi T I apologize if I sounded a bit frustrated the other day. I just recently came across a person who was using Paul to justify the commandments being “done away with” and it was a person who pushed aside Jesus' words in favor of Paul's words.

I believe myself that Paul was a true Apostle who was sent by God and I know that through Paul the Gospel advanced throughout the world and I believe all of scripture but I also believe what Peter said – that people can twist His words, and I have seen that done.

I don't know if you noticed but I do use a lot of Pauls words in my writings.

It does not make me any less of a Christian and nobody in my personal life worries about it.

I am not one of those people who believe that Paul was a false Apostle if that is what you are wondering.

Okay?

December 23, 2012 at 9:33 am#325123

Participant

All, I know what it is that I believe and that is that the Word of God is God's own Word and Holy Spirit. I believe that 'In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.' And I believe that the reading of John 1:1 should be kept intact, and I am against the reading being “The Word was a god. The Holy Spirit,Word is more than 'a god' or an Angel or a created being. the Word and the Holy Spirit (Son) is of God and is God.

The eternal Spirit is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit came into the World. The World was made through the Eternal Spirit, and in Scripture the Eternal Spirit is called a He.

Jesus was a Son of God, He became the first begotten Son of God.

The Holy Spirit which was in Him is also called the Son of God.

The body which the Holy Spirit was clothed in was the Man Jesus.

Hence why Jesus used the words 'Son of Man' and 'Son of God'.

I am only beginning to learn all of these things so forgive me if I have anything wrong.

December 23, 2012 at 4:37 pm#325140

Blocked

Okay Gene and 2B,

We all agree that John is speaking about the Word of God in verses 1 and 2.

John 1
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

Is John STILL speaking about the Word of God in verses 3 and 4?

December 23, 2012 at 5:01 pm#325144

Participant

Wakeup………The reason i call the all spirit of any kind and “it” is because Spirit is not a Person “it” is what is “IN” in a person. There are many Spirits, they come in different kinds and types. There is clean and unclean Spirit , Spirit of Wisdom , Spirit of Truth which we receive from God which is called the comforter Spirit in the simplest terms produce cognate thoughts in us.

They can be of GOD or other types and kinds Thousand of different one can exist in a person as in the case of the one who had a Legion of them in him. Where are good and evil Spirit, But no spirit is a Physical Person and a Spirit, the same Spirit can exist in all at the same time , Just as it says that God maybe in all and through all.

How could God be a singular Person and be in all and through all at the same time. Spirit is much like Water which can be drunk by anyone at any time. The Spirit of God is GOD'S very own nature being poured into us and it gives us the cognate ability to perceive as God perceives This causes us to become Children of GOD, Just as “IT” did with Jesus. On the other hand the Pharisees were children of the devil, why?, because they had that type of Spirit working in there minds giving them their cognate thoughts they exhibited. Spirit is an “it” Look up the Word Spirit and that alone should tell you Spirits are “IT'S” .

Spirit in it simplest meaning is a Type or Kind of cognate thought giving us the life they produce in us. They are not He or Shes but Distinct attributes of Life. Jesus said the words i am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “ARE” Life. He did not Say they were He's of She's but LIFE , why because the spirits in us are what transfers to us our lives we live. rather of God or of the World or satan. No spirit is a He or a She. All Spirit are “ITS” and come in types and Kinds.

There are “SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD”

Rev 4:5……….Seven Spirits of God. Rev 3:1….> Jesus has the Seven Spirit of God. also read, Rev 5:6 …> which show Jesus having the Seven Spirit of God also.

Wakeup ….There is no such thing as a He or a She Spirit. If you are referring to the LORD (Yahweh) as being ONE HE that may be another thing, but the Seven Spirits that are before HIS (Yahweh) Throne Go out into all the earth they are the Eyes or “INTELLECTS” the Father Uses to rule and judge with . IMO

peace and love to you and yours ……………….gene

December 23, 2012 at 5:19 pm#325149

Blocked

Gene? Verses 3 and 4? Yes or no?

December 23, 2012 at 7:04 pm#325152

kerwin

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 20 2012,22:58)

2beesee,

John is most likely speaking about the actual Word of God; though he personalizes it as you hypothesize. The Word is the things of God and God “embodies” those things and reveals them through the Spirit.

The Word is God as he “embodies” it. The Word is with God since his Spirit that is with him reveals it. It is also with him just as it is with the Spirit in the account of creation.

That same account teaches us that all things were created through God's Word.

Jesus quoted Scripture and stated men do not live on bread alone but on the very Word of God.

That life that is in the Teachings of God is the light of man which shines in the darkness of this world. Those that love darkness do not understand it. That is part of what Jesus taught Nicodemus.

Mike,

Here is where I stand on John 1:1-5.

December 23, 2012 at 10:44 pm#325160

Participant

Mike……….No to your perceptions of what 3&4 are saying

John 1:3…..All things were made by him “it” (is the word of God) and without him “it”
( the word of God) was not any thing made that was made, ( and that includes Jesus ) scripture says Jesus was made a little lower then the angels , just like we are.

John 1:4……in him “it” ( the word of God ), was the life (cognate awareness) or (intellect) was the light (cognate awareness or intellect) of men. Why because the word of God “IS” Spirit and “IS” life. Remember Jesus said the words he spoke to us were “life” and “spirit” , he also said those words were not his words he was telling us but of or from the father .

Now put it together Mike, God and his words are one and the same thing, just as your words and you are one and the same thing, no difference Mike. God is who enlightens “all” men coming in the world God and God alone.

Peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………………..gene

December 23, 2012 at 11:01 pm#325161

Participant

Mike………No to your perception of them Mike.

John 1: 3 All things were made by Him IT (the word of God) and without him It (the word of God) was not any thing made that was made. (and that includes Jesus) because scripture say he was “MADE” as we are a little lower than the angels.

John:4……> In him “IT” (the word of God), was life, and the life *conate awareness” or (intellect) was the light of men.

Why because the Word of God “IS” Spirit and “IS” LIFE. , remember Jesus said this “the “words” i am telling you “ARE SPIRIT” and “ARE LIFE” He also said the Words i am telling you are “NOT MINE”. but the Words of him that sent me.

Now put it together Mike. God and His WORDS ARE ONE AND THE SAME , the are SPIRIT and must be Spiritually perceived. Just that simple Mike.

Yes , No , answers will not work Mike because of Translation errors one must take many scriptures into consideration to draw a right and true conclusion Brother.

Remember the SUM of GOD'S WORD is truth not just some smidgen here and there which can lead to all kind of speculations Mike.

So in you case John 1:3 and 4 is NO because you understand them wrong, in my case they are yes because i understand them right Brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

December 23, 2012 at 11:02 pm#325162