In the Beginning

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  • #321835
     2besee 
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    The word 'was God' Mike, it says the word 'was God', not 'was a God'.

    Don't you feel there is something wrong with that?

    #321845
     terraricca 
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    Quote (2besee @ Nov. 25 2012,16:13)
    The word 'was God' Mike, it says the word 'was God', not 'was a God'.

    Don't you feel there is something wrong with that?


    zebee

    your logic is only skin deep,many questions have been left in mikes quote,

    why do you not answer them ???

    #321871
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (2besee @ Nov. 25 2012,03:48)
    The world was made through Jesus and Jesus had glory with God before the world was made, and so it seems that God's own thoughts or reason had worked through this vessel (the word) in the past before this vessel was made flesh.


    You're almost there, 2B. Now just accept that this “vessel”, the Word, WAS already Jesus, the Son of God. Here's why:

    John 1:3
    Through [the Word] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1:16
    For through [the Son of God] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    ……..and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    Here you have three different scriptures telling us who God made all things through. One scripture calls him “the Word”. One calls him “the Son of God”. And one calls him “Lord Jesus Christ”. But the same thing is said about all “three” of these people: God created all things through him.

    To me, this is strong evidence that the Word is the Son of God, who is our Lord Jesus Christ.

    #321884
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (2besee @ Nov. 25 2012,04:13)
    The word 'was God' Mike, it says the word 'was God', not 'was a God'.

    Don't you feel there is something wrong with that?


    Hi 2B,

    This is about to be a LONG post.  Please, please, please bear with me and read it.  My aim is not to ridicule you or to force you into believing something just because I believe it.  My aim is to give you enough information for you to make an educated decision on the matter of John 1:1.

    What you may not know is that neither the Hebrew nor the Greek languages use an indefinite article.  For example, we in English would say, Today we took a car for a test drive.  In Greek, they say, Today we took car for test drive.  (Notice the indefinite article “a” is missing in the Greek version.)

    What that means is that each of the over 8000 times the indefinite article “a” is translated into English Bibles, it has to be ADDED by the translator – as he sees fit.  Here is a Hebrew example:

    Judges 13
    21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.

    22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!

    Due to the lack of the indefinite article, we in English have to “guess” if Manoah thought he'd seen God Almighty, or “a god”.  And judging from verse 21, which makes it clear that Manoah KNEW it was not God Himself, but an angel of God, I'd say verse 22 deserves a translation of “a god”.  But most English translations render it as “God”.  Does that make “God” the absolute correct translation, since it could be translated either way?

    Here is one from the Greek language:

    Acts 28:6
    The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

    The “a god” at the end could just as faithfully be translated as “God”.  We must decide from context whether the people of Malta thought Paul was the one true God, or if he was one of many gods.  Most translators assume that the people of Malta didn't know Jehovah, and so ADD the indefinite article “a” into the verse, rendering it as “a god”.  But again, it could go either way, depending on what the translator believes was being taught.

    So the Greek words in the verse above are really:  they changed their minds and said he was god.  Now in English, that sounds to us like they thought he was THE God, Jehovah.  But in Greek, it could just as easily mean they thought he was “a god”.

    Are you with me so far?

    The same principal applies to John 1:1, but with a twist.  The first mention of “God” in part b (the Word was with God) actually uses the definite article “THE”.  So the Greek words leave no guess work in part b, because it is spelled out for us that the Word was with THE god.  

    As for part c (and the Word was god), John did NOT use the definite article “THE” in front of “god”.  So that leaves it open to the translators.  There is a rule called “Colwell's Rule”, which allows for us in English to ADD the definite article “THE” in certain cases.  And there is the general rule that we MUST add the indefinite article “a” in many cases – so that it makes sense in English.  

    So now, as the info from the NETNotes scholars pointed out, we in English have the choice of ADDING the definite article “THE” before the word “god” in part c, or ADDING the indefinite article “a” before the word “god” in part c.

    Either way, we in English are ADDING a word.  And EITHER translation would be faithful to the Greek words that were written.  There is no right answer based only on grammar.  (I should mention that the NETNotes scholars aren't breaking new ground with this announcement.  ANY Greek to English translator knows these rules, and even the strictest of Trinitarian scholars will admit that “a god” is one of the grammatical possibilities of John 1:1c.)

    So now we have to decide BY CONTEXT whether John meant “THE god” (God), or whether he meant “a god”.

    Here's what we know:
    1.  John specifically used the definite article “THE” in part b – saying that the Word was with THE god.

    2.  He did NOT use the definite article in part c…………….. why not?  (After all, he used it both times for the Word, calling him “THE logos” both times.  So why are there two mentions of “theos”, but only one of them is called “THE theos” by John?)

    3.  It is an asinine notion that THE God can be with THE God.  Even the TRINITARIAN scholars from NETNotes point this out by saying, “The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)”

    4.  We also know that Jesus WAS called a god many times in scripture, but that he is not the Most High God that he is the Son of.  (Mark 5:7, Luke 1:32)

    5.  We know that the Word later became flesh, dwelled on earth, and died at the hands of human beings.  (Did God Almighty do these things – or did He send His Son to do these things?)

    6.  We know that God created all things THROUGH this Word.  (Did God create all things through Himself?)

    7.  We know that this “Word” in John 1 is most likely “the Word of God” from Rev 19:13.  (Does it seem likely that God Almighty would be called “the Word OF God Almighty”?)

    I could go on and on, 2B, but I believe this is enough information for now – and that it should be enough information for you to make an informed decision about John 1:1.

    To sum up, don't just assume that because the vast majority of English translations say “and the Word was God”, that it's the truth of the matter.  (See Judges 13:22 above)  I could list MANY English translations (not just the NWT) that DON'T have “God” in 1:1c.  Remember that the majority of these “God” translations are made by men who are trying desperately to FORCE the scriptures into teaching that Jesus IS the very God he is the Son of.  And in their zeal to do this, they don't even seem to mind that they've come up with a translation that has the Word OF God being the very God he was WITH in the beginning.  ???   If even the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars from NETNotes can clearly see the flaw in this reasoning, then we should be able to easily see it too.

    peace,
    mike

    #321887
     Lightenup 
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    Mike,
    Was the 'word' in John 1c THE only begotten God?

    #321894
     Richtuner 
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    I find it difficult to see the same old problem with John 1 and 1John 5:7.
    Even the later is in Italics people get all off the reservation about it.

    Does everyone here believe that God cannot control His own Words, even down to our generation?

    Did God not know how His Word would turn out in being translated into English?

    These two complement and agree with each other, (NO I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TRINITY)

    Take this for an example, God created all thing by saying, by His Word, God spoke and it was so, God said let there be and it was etc.

    Can God lie? Why? Can He speak a lie or anything that is not truth? Why?

    God calls those thing that be not as though they were, meaning if God says that grass is blue, you need to look out the window because it will be blue and not green. He can not lie.

    Now look at this,
    Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Notice that when he speaks a lie it is of his own and the father of it. If no truth is in him, he cannot tell the truth. If he does it is surrounded with lies.

    How about God? Can he speak a lie? Then if He can only speak truth, He speaks of His own and is the father of truth.

    Why is it so hard to believe that God's Word is God Himself?

    In the beginning, “God” period! His presents was all that was in the beginning.

    #321897
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (Richtuner @ Nov. 25 2012,12:16)
    Does everyone here believe that God cannot control His own Words, even down to our generation?


    Hi Rich,

    John 1:1
    NIV
    ………..and the Word was God.

    NWT
    ……….and the Word was a god.

    The Emphatic Diaglott
    ……..and a god was the Word.

    Moffatt’s Translation
    ……the Logos was divine.

    The American Translation
    ………..the Word was divine.

    In which of the above translations do you suppose God was “controlling His own words”?

    #321899
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 25 2012,11:17)
    Mike,
    Was the 'word' in John 1c THE only begotten God?


    Yep.  And Satan was THE God of Ekron.

    Kathi, why would you attempt to muddy up these important grammatical FACTS I'm trying to show 2besee, when you and I both agree that John 1:1 speaks of TWO gods, one of whom was with the other in the beginning?   ???

    #321902
     terraricca 
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    richt

    Quote
    Take this for an example, God created all thing by saying, by His Word, God spoke and it was so, God said let there be and it was etc.

    you mean God was talking to himself when he said that right ???

    #321913
     2besee 
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    Mike, I haven't read your above posts yet but i have been thinking.

    To say that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was A God does Not. Seem. Right.

    In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God seems right.

    Genesis 1:1

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth… “The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.”

    John 1:1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”

    #321916
     2besee 
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    God made all things through his Spirit.

    Once you make 'John 1:1' a verse about two GODS then you start drifting off into either Trinitariansism; Binitarianism; or Arianism, but is either correct?

    We have Trinitarianism saying that there are two Gods (two Gods which combine to be one) and then you have the same with Binitarianism – except that there are two Gods which combine into one, and then you have the Arianists who say that there are 'big gods and little gods', though both are the 'God type'.

    To start at the beginning, I believe that the correct understand of 'John 1:1' needs to be made.

    This is a critical verse.

    There is only one God.

    #321918
     2besee 
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    Oops, Trinitanarianism THREE Gods! Error!

    #321920
     Ed J 
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    Quote (2besee @ Nov. 26 2012,07:01)
    Mike, I haven't read your above posts yet but i have been thinking.

    To say that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was A God does Not. Seem. Right.

    In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God seems right.

    Genesis 1:1

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth… “The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.”

    John 1:1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”


    Hi 2Besee,

    Have you ever heard this joke?   >>>
    What's the only thing more powerful than the word of God?      …the traditions of men.  (See Col.2:22)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #321921
     2besee 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2012,04:49)

    Quote (2besee @ Nov. 25 2012,03:48)
    The world was made through Jesus and Jesus had glory with God before the world was made, and so it seems that God's own thoughts or reason had worked through this vessel (the word) in the past before this vessel was made flesh.


    You're almost there, 2B.  Now just accept that this “vessel”, the Word, WAS already Jesus, the Son of God.  Here's why:

    John 1:3
    Through [the Word] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1:16
    For through [the Son of God] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    ……..and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    Here you have three different scriptures telling us who God made all things through.  One scripture calls him “the Word”.  One calls him “the Son of God”.  And one calls him “Lord Jesus Christ”.  But the same thing is said about all “three” of these people:  God created all things through him.

    To me, this is strong evidence that the Word is the Son of God, who is our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Yes, no disagreement there.

    #321922
     2besee 
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    So then Jesus – also known as the word of God, also known as the Son, also known as the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit?

    #321923
     2besee 
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    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 26 2012,09:23)
    Hi 2Besee,

    Have you ever heard this joke?   >>>
    What's the only thing more powerful than the word of God?      …the traditions of men.  (See Col.2:22)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    Hi Ed true.

    #321926
     2besee 
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    Quote Mike:

    “Kathi, why would you attempt to muddy up these important grammatical FACTS I'm trying to show 2besee, when you and I both agree that John 1:1 speaks of TWO gods, one of whom was with the other in the beginning?   ???

    So you are a polytheist?

    #321928
     2besee 
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    How could “someone” be with someone, and also BE that someone?

    1Cor:2:10,
    “God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
    For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. “

    #321938
     2besee 
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    Hi Mike, I am going to “attack” your post on page three bit by bit, tomorrow (when I have some more time) but for now I just have one more post to do:

    Richard said:

    “How about God? Can he speak a lie? Then  if He can  only speak truth, He speaks of His own and is the father of truth.
    Why is it so hard to believe that God's Word is God Himself?”

    Wakeup gave the scripture:

    “Isaiah 44:8   Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A GOD BESIDE ME? yea, THERE IS NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY.”

    And as EdJ said:

    “What's the only thing more powerful than the word of God?      …the traditions of men.  (See Col.2:22)”

    And Scriptures says:

    [5] I AM THE LORD AND THERE IS NO OTHER,
    BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD;
    I gird you, though you do not know me,
    [6] THAT MEN MAY KNOW,
    FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN FROM THE WEST,
    THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME;
    I AM THE LORD, AND THERE SI NO OTHER.

    [7] I FORM THE LIGHT AND CREATE DARKNESS,
    I MAKE WEAL AND CREATE WOE,
    I AM THE LORD, WHO DO ALL THESE THINGS.
    [8] “Shower, O heavens, from above,
    and let the skies rain down righteousness;
    let the earth open, that salvation may sprout forth,
    and let it cause righteousness to spring up also;
    I the LORD have created it.
    [9] “Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
    an earthen vessel with the potter!
    Does the clay say to him who fashions it, `What are you making'?
    or `Your work has no handles'?
    [10] Woe to him who says to a father, `What are you begetting?'
    or to a woman, `With what are you in travail?'”
    [11] Thus says the LORD,
    the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
    “Will you question me about my children,
    or command me concerning the work of my hands?
    [12] I MADE THE EARTH,
    AND CREATED MAN UPON IT;
    IT WAS MY HANDS THAT STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS,
    AND I COMMANDED ALL THEIR HOST.
    [13] I have aroused him in righteousness,
    and I will make straight all his ways;
    he shall build my city
    and set my exiles free,
    not for price or reward,”
    says the LORD of hosts.
    [14] Thus says the LORD:
    “The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia,
    and the Sabe'ans, men of stature,
    shall come over to you and be yours,
    they shall follow you;
    they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
    They will make supplication to you, saying:
    `GOD IS WITH YOU ONLY, AND THERE IS NO OTHER,
    NO GOD BESIDES HIM'”
    [15] Truly, thou art a God who hidest thyself,
    O God of Israel, the Savior.
    [16] All of them are put to shame and confounded,
    the makers of idols go in confusion together.
    [17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
    with everlasting salvation;
    you shall not be put to shame or confounded
    to all eternity.
    [18] FOR THUS SAYS THE LORD,
    WHO CREATED THE HEAVENS
    (HE IS GOD!),
    WHO FORMED THE EARTH AND MADE IT
    (he established it;
    he did not create it a chaos,
    he formed it to be inhabited!):
    “I AM THE LORD, AND THERE IS NO OTHER.
    [19] I did not speak in secret,
    in a land of darkness;
    I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
    `Seek me in chaos.'
    I THE LORD SPEAK THE TRUTH,
    I DECLARE WHAT SI RIGHT.
    [20] “Assemble yourselves and come,
    draw near together,
    you survivors of the nations!
    They have no knowledge
    who carry about their wooden idols,
    and keep on praying to a god
    that cannot save.
    [21] DECLARE AND PRESENT YOUR CASE;
    LET THE COUNSEL TOGETHER!
    WHO TOLD THIS LONG AGO?
    WHO DECLARED IT OF OLD?
    WAS IT NOT I, THE LORD?
    AND THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME,
    A RIGHTEOUS GOD AND A SAVIOUR;
    THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME.
    [22] “TURN TO ME AND BE SAVE,
    ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!
    FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE SI NO OTHER.
    [23]  By myself I have sworn,
    from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness
    a word that shall not return:
    `To me every knee shall bow,
    every tongue shall swear.'
    [24] “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,
    are righteousness and strength;
    to him shall come and be ashamed,
    all who were incensed against him.
    [25] In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
    shall triumph and glory.”

    As you can see there is only one God who created the world, not 'two' or 'three'.

    Get to your post tomorrow:)

    #321955
     terraricca 
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    2b

    Genesis 1:1

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth… “The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.”

    can you see that there are two beguinings ???

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