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Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,12:33) Mike, I already pointed out that the soulish flesh in made of woman and the Spiritual flesh is made by the power of the Spirit.
Where can I read about “spiritual flesh” in the scriptures?It seems to me that “flesh” and “spirit” are often taught as antonyms.
Mike,
Quote Where does the scripture say the Nephilim were in the world BEFORE the sons of God mated with the daughters of humans? Most versions of Scriptures say that, even the one you quoted. It is common knowledge.
Quote Verse 4. – There were. Not became, or arose, as if the giants were the fruit of the previously-mentioned misalliances; but already existed contemporaneously with the sons of God, Pulpit Commentary
Quote and also after that, which shows that the preceding clause respects giants in former times:, Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible. Quote As for your claim that you don't know why the merger of Seth's line and Cain's line produced “men of renown”, I suggest that you give this line of reasoning up. I am not saying that the offspring were the males of old, men of name. I am saying the Nephilim were the males of old and males of name because they not the offspring are the subject.
Quote I suggest you read my last post to you in the other thread, where I posted some of the Book of Enoch. The fact that Enoch was an important part of Jewish culture, and was even quoted once or twice in the scriptures, shows us that the Jews understood the “sons of God” in Gen 6:4 to be referring to the SPIRIT sons of God, ie: angels. The Targums were a center of Jewish learning and they clearly oppose the interpretation that sons of God means angels. The 1 book of Enoch we have today is corrupted just as the gospel of the Ebionites is said to be a corrupted version of Matthew.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2013,00:47) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,12:33) Mike, I already pointed out that the soulish flesh in made of woman and the Spiritual flesh is made by the power of the Spirit.
Where can I read about “spiritual flesh” in the scriptures?It seems to me that “flesh” and “spirit” are often taught as antonyms.
Mike,Flesh and the Spirit are in opposition just like the the world and Spirit are but there will be a new flesh just as there will be a new world. When the Spirit unites with flesh and with spirit then man will be a very good creation.
Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2013,00:01) Quote (terraricca @ May 26 2013,18:50) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,05:09) Quote (terraricca @ May 26 2013,01:37) Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2013,23:20) Quote (terraricca @ May 25 2013,08:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2013,23:42) Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2013,08:53) Kerwin the breath of live comes through the action of breathing through our nostrils ,
the spirit does not come from physical action ,while the spirit can create physical actions ,through the will of that spirit ,
so the soul his that spirit and the spirit is their to become us as we are and as we make us ,by our desires , ambitions,egos,kindness ,gentleness ,righteousness, ect
T,God breath his breath, which is called the breath of life, into Adam's nostrils. The breath comes from God. God's breath is not like ours as he is the creator of air and the ability to breath it.
KerwinGod breathed THE BREATH OF LIVE INTO ADAM NOSTRILS
IT SEEMS TO ME YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THAT GOD STARTED ADAM LIFE WITH HIS FIRST BREATH ,
SORRY FOR YOU ,THIS IS A SIMPLE ACTION THAT IS REPEATED FOR EVERY NEW BORN THAT COMES INTO THIS WORLD ,
THEY ALL TAKEN THEIR FIRST BREATH INTO THE WORLD LIFE THROUGH THEIR NOSTRILS
T,Was John the Baptist alive when he jumped in his Mother's womb?
Kerwinanswer me this ;DID JOHN THE BAPTIST BREATHING THROUGH HIS NOSTRILS INSIDE THE WOMB OF HIS MOTHER
REMEMBER BABIES ALWAYS CAN MOVE IN THE WOMB AFTER SIX MONTH OF GESTATION,
IN THE CASE OF “JBT” IT WAS AT A PARTICULAR TIME THEN AND THERE
T,They are sometimes felt to move earlier. A breath is not taken by the child until after the child is born. Biologically a child is alive as soon as they are conceived.
kerwinQuote Biologically a child is alive as soon as they are conceived. so a sperm and the egg his dead
what his a child
or when can we call it a child ,???conception is wen sperm and egg comes one ;? this is not a child
but the beginning of what would become a child ,now wen a child is complete in form then it could be called a child not before,IMO
T,It is true that a human being is shaped in his mothers inner parts from the time he is conceived as a living human. It is also true that the sperm and ova are living human cells which are shed by their parent organisms in the hopes of continue the circuit of life instead of perishing.
According to God, even the eggs of an Ostrich are her young. Since God said that about a non-sentient beast then it is just as true for a human.
According to medical science a children outside his mother's womb is not a fully formed adult.
My point of all this is that human life exists without breathing air through the nostrils. A child in his mother's womb get what he needs through his umbilical cord and his mother does his breathing for him.
Kerwinyour answer is poor ,and out of sens ,you jump from a child to an adult,then to an embryo
and so avoid to direct answer my questions ;
I now believe that you can not see the difference between an animal and a human ,between an egg layer and an human womb conception, do you need a chicken enlightenment
Quote (terraricca @ May 27 2013,05:38) Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2013,00:01) Quote (terraricca @ May 26 2013,18:50) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,05:09) Quote (terraricca @ May 26 2013,01:37) Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2013,23:20) Quote (terraricca @ May 25 2013,08:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2013,23:42) Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2013,08:53) Kerwin the breath of live comes through the action of breathing through our nostrils ,
the spirit does not come from physical action ,while the spirit can create physical actions ,through the will of that spirit ,
so the soul his that spirit and the spirit is their to become us as we are and as we make us ,by our desires , ambitions,egos,kindness ,gentleness ,righteousness, ect
T,God breath his breath, which is called the breath of life, into Adam's nostrils. The breath comes from God. God's breath is not like ours as he is the creator of air and the ability to breath it.
KerwinGod breathed THE BREATH OF LIVE INTO ADAM NOSTRILS
IT SEEMS TO ME YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THAT GOD STARTED ADAM LIFE WITH HIS FIRST BREATH ,
SORRY FOR YOU ,THIS IS A SIMPLE ACTION THAT IS REPEATED FOR EVERY NEW BORN THAT COMES INTO THIS WORLD ,
THEY ALL TAKEN THEIR FIRST BREATH INTO THE WORLD LIFE THROUGH THEIR NOSTRILS
T,Was John the Baptist alive when he jumped in his Mother's womb?
Kerwinanswer me this ;DID JOHN THE BAPTIST BREATHING THROUGH HIS NOSTRILS INSIDE THE WOMB OF HIS MOTHER
REMEMBER BABIES ALWAYS CAN MOVE IN THE WOMB AFTER SIX MONTH OF GESTATION,
IN THE CASE OF “JBT” IT WAS AT A PARTICULAR TIME THEN AND THERE
T,They are sometimes felt to move earlier. A breath is not taken by the child until after the child is born. Biologically a child is alive as soon as they are conceived.
kerwinQuote Biologically a child is alive as soon as they are conceived. so a sperm and the egg his dead
what his a child
or when can we call it a child ,???conception is wen sperm and egg comes one ;? this is not a child
but the beginning of what would become a child ,now wen a child is complete in form then it could be called a child not before,IMO
T,It is true that a human being is shaped in his mothers inner parts from the time he is conceived as a living human. It is also true that the sperm and ova are living human cells which are shed by their parent organisms in the hopes of continue the circuit of life instead of perishing.
According to God, even the eggs of an Ostrich are her young. Since God said that about a non-sentient beast then it is just as true for a human.
According to medical science a children outside his mother's womb is not a fully formed adult.
My point of all this is that human life exists without breathing air through the nostrils. A child in his mother's womb get what he needs through his umbilical cord and his mother does his breathing for him.
Kerwinyour answer is poor ,and out of sens ,you jump from a child to an adult,then to an embryo
and so avoid to direct answer my questions ;
I now believe that you can not see the difference between an animal and a human ,between an egg layer and an human womb conception, do you need a chicken enlightenment
T,Luke 1:41
King James Version (KJV)41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:44
King James Version (KJV)44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Job 39:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
14 Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,
15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
16 She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not her's: her labour is in vain without fear;Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,13:43) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Where does the scripture say the Nephilim were in the world BEFORE the sons of God mated with the daughters of humans? Most versions of Scriptures say that, even the one you quoted. It is common knowledge.
Kerwin,The Trinity Doctrine is also “common knowledge” among the sources you quoted.
I've always understood Genesis 6:4 as, “The Nephilim were in the world in those days, when [as the result of] the sons of God came [coming] to the daughters of men…………. and also afterward.”I see the “and also afterward” as a marginal note added by a later scribe, due to the mention of Nephilim in Numbers 13:33.
But read this, and in a later post, I'll highlight some of the obvious points this author makes.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,14:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2013,00:47) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,12:33) Mike, I already pointed out that the soulish flesh in made of woman and the Spiritual flesh is made by the power of the Spirit.
Where can I read about “spiritual flesh” in the scriptures?It seems to me that “flesh” and “spirit” are often taught as antonyms.
Mike,Flesh and the Spirit are in opposition just like the the world and Spirit are but there will be a new flesh just as there will be a new world. When the Spirit unites with flesh and with spirit then man will be a very good creation.
I need the SCRIPTURE in which I can read about “spiritual flesh”, Kerwin. Please provide that SCRIPTURE for me.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2013,07:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,13:43) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Where does the scripture say the Nephilim were in the world BEFORE the sons of God mated with the daughters of humans? Most versions of Scriptures say that, even the one you quoted. It is common knowledge.
Kerwin,The Trinity Doctrine is also “common knowledge” among the sources you quoted.
I've always understood Genesis 6:4 as, “The Nephilim were in the world in those days, when [as the result of] the sons of God came [coming] to the daughters of men…………. and also afterward.”I see the “and also afterward” as a marginal note added by a later scribe, due to the mention of Nephilim in Numbers 13:33.
But read this, and in a later post, I'll highlight some of the obvious points this author makes.
Mike,The wording of most versions of Scripture say what these men conclude. You propose another version is correct. It is quite possible all or most of those versions you disagree with are translated by Trinitarians whose teachings are not from God. That damages the creditability of those translations. Never the less those translations are what I have to go by.
I read some of the arguments of the on the web site you previewed and noticed at least one contradiction.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2013,00:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,12:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2013,00:09) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,01:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2013,08:01)
You say outward forms are a thing of creation, yet Paul speaks in Phil 2 about the form of God.
Paul knows what he speaks of but you do not.
Wise words, Kerwin.And since Paul DOES know what he's talking about, and we do not, we are better off to just believe Paul, right?
And Paul says God DOES have a form, right?
End of story.
Mike,That is what causes a person to stumble. We are all instructed to seek understanding. If we do as you say we are not seeking to understand.
So you will seek understanding that allows you to DISALLOW for Paul's words?Better to just believe Paul, Kerwin.
Mike,You have added the qualification of outward to form even though you also acknowledge that God created the outward form of angels. God existed before he created those outward forms. As such you are claiming by inference that Paul teaches both God created all thing and that God did not create all things.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2013,23:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2013,05:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2013,07:54) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,00:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2013,07:28) Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2013,19:19) Ghosts have form but cannot be touched nor can they touch.
Where in scripture did you learn this?Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2013,19:19) God has no form as he is not created.
Where in scripture did you learn this one? Phil 2 says Jesus was existing in the form of God. How could that be if God has no form?Also, if God cannot be touched, and ghosts cannot be touched, is God a ghost? If not, why not?
Mike,The apostles who saw Jesus and thought he was a ghost and Jesus' words and actions about touching him. The witch of Endor also saw a form. The disciple stated Rhoda probably saw Peter's messenger, a type of “ghost” sighting common to this day.
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,00:14) The apostles who saw Jesus and thought he was a ghost……..
The Greek word used means “spirit”.Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,00:14) The witch of Endor also saw a form.
The medium (not “witch”) that Saul consulted in Endor saw a form that she called a “god” – not a “ghost”.Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,00:14) The disciple stated Rhoda probably saw Peter's messenger, a type of “ghost” sighting common to this day.
This story is unfamiliar to me. Please list the scripture.
Mike,“phantasm” and “spirit” are both used in describing the disciples what the disciples feared when they saw Jesus walking on water. That would be a ghost or an illusion.
“spirit” was used when Jesus showed himself in the room after he was died and Acts 1 states about that time he gave proof he was alive.
The proofs Jesus gave in the later case was to eat and to have his disciples touch him.
Actually the witch of Endor was a necromancer(ob) that was also a medium(baalah) and a woman(ishshah). baalah is the feminine form of baal so it seems reasonable medium is a nice way to put it.
Acts 12:15 is where angel is mentioned after Peter miraculously escapes from Jail and avoids his execution.
Kerwin,None of these things are proving the existence of what you call “ghosts”.
Please tell me what a ghost is, in your opinion.
Mike,Ghosts are souls without bodies.
The Witch of Endor summoned the soul of Samuel from Sheol and that ghost rebuked King Saul.
The rest speaks of the disciples belief in ghosts.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2013,00:47) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,12:33) Mike, I already pointed out that the soulish flesh in made of woman and the Spiritual flesh is made by the power of the Spirit.
Where can I read about “spiritual flesh” in the scriptures?It seems to me that “flesh” and “spirit” are often taught as antonyms.
Mike,The idea is put forth with the words Spiritual body and enliven mortal body. I also suspect it is why Paul stated all flesh is not the same.
Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2013,15:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2013,00:46)
So you will seek understanding that allows you to DISALLOW for Paul's words?Better to just believe Paul, Kerwin.
Mike,You have added the qualification of outward to form…………
I didn't add it, Kerwin. It is what the word “morphe” means:1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearanceBoth definitions of the word describe an OUTWARD appearance. And if the word Paul used means “external appearance”, and Paul did in fact use that word, then who are we to argue with him?
Kerwin, all BEINGS are also created, right? But God is the exception, right? So can't the body of God also be an exception to your own made up rule that all bodies are created?
Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2013,16:03) Mike, Ghosts are souls without bodies.
The Witch of Endor summoned the soul of Samuel from Sheol and that ghost rebuked King Saul.
Kerwin,The medium of Endor summoned Samuel, and upon seeing him she called him a god – not a “ghost”.
Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2013,16:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2013,00:47) Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2013,12:33) Mike, I already pointed out that the soulish flesh in made of woman and the Spiritual flesh is made by the power of the Spirit.
Where can I read about “spiritual flesh” in the scriptures?It seems to me that “flesh” and “spirit” are often taught as antonyms.
Mike,The idea is put forth with the words Spiritual body and enliven mortal body. I also suspect it is why Paul stated all flesh is not the same.
Kerwin,“Spiritual body” doesn't say one word about flesh. There is no scripture that says spirits who dwell in heaven, like angels, have “spiritual FLESH” bodies. And there ARE at least two teachings in scripture (one of them from Jesus himself) that make it clear that flesh cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of God.
And the reason Paul said all flesh is not the same was to give an example to his teaching that all BODIES are not the same.
He was saying, Every one of you can easily tell that all flesh is not the same, simply by looking at a man compared to an animal, fish, or bird. Likewise all the bodies that God has made for His various creations are not the same either. For example, we on earth have NATURAL, FLESHLY bodies, while God's sons in heaven have SPIRITUAL bodies. But some of us too will someday have glorious spiritual bodies like those of heaven, and these will not be flesh bodies that are made by human hands. Instead, they will be a spiritual heavenly tent made by God Himself.
This was the teaching, my friend.
Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2013,15:33) I read some of the arguments of the on the web site you previewed and noticed at least one contradiction.
Well, I'll list a couple of his points that I thought were very good. After commenting on these points, you can show the contradiction if you'd like. First up are a couple of his good points that discredit your opinion that the “sons of God” are the “sons of Seth” who merged with the “daughters of Cain”:1. Nowhere are the Sethites called the ‘the sons of God.’
2. …..only a handful of the Sethites are said to be godly. It seems that only Noah and his family could be called righteous at the time of the flood. Would God have failed to deliver any who were righteous?
3. Also, the ‘daughters of men’ can hardly be restricted to only the daughters of the Cainites. In verse 1 Moses wrote, “Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them” (Genesis 6:1).
It is difficult to conclude that the ‘men’ here are not men in general or mankind. It would follow that the reference to their ‘daughters’ would be equally general. To conclude that the ‘daughters of men’ in verse two is some different, more restrictive group is to ignore the context of the passage.
Now, a few of his points that support my opinion:
1. If biblical definitions are not to be found then we must look at the language and culture of contemporary peoples. But the Bible does define the term ‘the sons of God’ for us. (Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7; Psalm 89:6; Daniel 3:25)
2. In the New Testament, two passages seem to refer to this incident in Genesis 6, and to support the angel view:
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; (II Peter 2:4).
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day (Jude 6).
These verses would indicate that some of the angels who fell with Satan were not content with their ‘proper abode’ and therefore began to live among men (and women) as men. God’s judgment upon them was to place them in bonds…….
3. The result of the union between fallen angels and women is rather clearly implied to be the Nephilim.
While word studies have produced numerous suggestions for the meaning of this term, the biblical definition of this word comes from its only other instance in Scripture, Numbers 13:33:
There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.
I therefore understand the Nephilim to be a race of super-humans who are the product of this angelic invasion of the earth.
Kerwin, it is unreasonable to assume the words “daughters of adam” refer ONLY to the daughters of Cain, when we know that the daughters of Seth were equally “daughters of adam”.
It is unreasonable to assume that Seth was a “son of God”, but his brother Cain was not. Especially when you figure that ONLY Noah was “righteous” when God sent the flood. (Why would the vast majority of Seth's UNGODLY offspring still be distinguished as the “sons of God”?)
It is unreasonable to assume that the merger between two family lines of human beings would even be noteworthy – let alone that the merger of these two lines would somehow produce super large human beings.
On top of that, we have the Book of Enoch, which while not necessarily being inspired scripture, clearly influenced a couple of the writers of scripture. Surely, in verse 6 of his book, Jude was referring to the angels who mated with the daughters of adam, as described in Enoch. That also seems the likely origin of Peter's words in 2 Peter 2:4. I mean, where else in scripture would either of these two men get the idea that certain angels were bound in dark pits?
Anyway, believe what you'd like to believe. I had no idea that anyone but you even believed in this “Seth vs. Cain” theory until you listed those commentators. I was flabbergasted to find out that so many commentators hold your view. I guess I never looked into it before, because it seemed to be simple common sense to me that the sons of God were angels who mated with the daughters of Adam (human women), and produced a line of giant hybrids called the Nephilim.
At least now I know you are not alone in your belief. But to me, there is not one shred of evidence to support that belief, while there is much scriptural evidence to overturn it.
Mike………There is no scripture that says Angels cohabited with women either, So I wouldn't be to hard on Kerwin. If angels are spirits as you believe , how could spirits have sex with women. Jesus said there would be no marriage in the future because we would be like the angels of heaven. Not one scripture shows any sexual activity between women and angels , no where in all the bible. INO
And Jesus said “flesh “and” blood” could not enter into the kingdom of GOD, he didn't say flesh and bone, could not enter heaven now did he?
Peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 31 2013,17:42) And Jesus said “flesh “and” blood” could not enter into the kingdom of GOD, he didn't say flesh and bone, could not enter heaven now did he?
Hi Gene,I wasn't being hard on Kerwin……. this time!
I was just showing him scripture and logic to support my own point in this matter – while simultaneously deflating his point. BTW, it was Paul who said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus mentioned only flesh to Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus taught since flesh can only give birth to flesh, human beings must be born again from above, by water and spirit, in order to enter the kingdom of God.
Get it? Flesh cannot enter. That's why we must be born again before we can enter.
Quote (t8 @ May 31 2013,17:51) Gene. God is a spirit. And it is possible that spirits have the ability to take on form.
I think spirit beings always have a form, t8.But at any rate, Paul certainly says Jesus was existing in the FORM of God before being made into a human being, right?
That's good enough for me.
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