God

[david]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 28 2013,21:44)

Quote (david @ Jan. 28 2013,13:39) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 27 2013,07:37) Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2013,04:04) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 26 2013,16:08) David, I believe “God commands it because it is good”, an item is classified as good by how its implementation supports either love of others, or selfishness. That's why love fulfills the law, imagine if all the worlds decisions (business, political, personal) were based on putting others needs first, it would be heaven on earth. Wm Hi seeking truth, I'm not exactly sure what you mean and am also not sure if you hold one of the two options as the answer or not. David, Long time since we've corresponded. I hold the second option listed in your second post. Sorry my response was confusing but I believe a God of love would only call something good if it is. 2. God says something is “good” because it actually is good. Wm This would also make it seem that God is bound by the laws of morality, just as we are. And that Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist. Is God a law giver, a law transmitter?  This is why some do not like this option. David, God is bound by the laws of morality, not because they're “laws” but because it's His nature. God is good, God is love, and love does no wrong. Lying, stealing, etc violate God's very nature. As to “Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist.” Without God nothing exists. Wm

Hi seeking.

What I'm asking is about what you call the laws of nature themself. Do they originate from God or is he merely stating what would be true whether he stated it or not.

You are saying God is bound by the standards of what is right or what is wrong, and that its his nature.

Rather than me saying: Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist.” I should have said: Morality would still exist even if God never stated what was right or what was wrong.”

Ie: stealing or killing would be wrong, whether God said so or not. And if this is the case, if this is what is believed, then does it not seem that God is merely a transmitter or messenger of these truths, rather than an established or creator of them?

And if this is believed, could it not also be said that morality does not truly depend on God?

[david]

Quote (Richtuner @ Jan. 30 2013,13:00)

Is what is “evil” evil because God commands it, or does God command it because it is evil? that would demand an equal answer.

Yes it would.

[david]

Quote

My thinking is that God commands it because it is good and what is good is him. And what is him? Light, love, mercy, patient, eternal… I don't think it is the other way round because that seems to imply a sort of random selection of what is good and bad which is based on nothing. So what is good is based on what is God. God is not based on what is good because he wouldn't be God, Good would be.

–t8

It seems most here are opting for #2.

T8, how would you respond to my post above?

[david]

Quote

But again, is bad really bad only because that is what we are told. Let's imagine if God allowed Satan to take over this universe and keep it because it was too sinful for God now and he couldn't even look at it anymore. So he decided to make a new one for himself and rather than destroy the old one, he thought, why not let it exist. Then what is good and what is bad is what Satan would dictate. Yet somehow, I cannot see beings under his rule agreeing that what he calls good is good.

T8
Very interesting argument for option 2.

[david]

I'm really not sure if this applies or makes sense, but Abraham being commanded to kill Isaac comes to mind. Of course, he called it off.

But, we know killing is bad. But if God says: “in this case, killing is good and right,” does that make it right?

Or if God says to the Israelites: “kill all the tribes inhabiting that land” does that make killing right or good?

Can killing be both good and bad? Can stealing be both good and bad? Can lying be both good and bad?

Remember Rachel, who lied to save the spies. Was that good?

These are just things that occurred to me.

[david]

If there are moral standards independent of God's will, then there is something over which God is not sovereign. God is bound by the laws of morality instead of being their establisher.

For me, I'm not sure he is bound by them, since he seems to be able to bend them.

[david]

Seeking truth, wondering how you would respond to the above.

[Lightenup]

I'm thinking that this verse is relevant to the discussion:
Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

So there was a time period before the law was given. Is it the law that determined what was good or bad or were the laws instinctively known before they were given? Was it a surprise to the people that there should be no other gods before YHWH or that they should not kill or steal or dishonor parents, etc.?

Just some thoughts

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2013,10:09)

I'm thinking that this verse is relevant to the discussion: Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. So there was a time period before the law was given. Is it the law that determined what was good or bad or were the laws instinctively known before they were given? Was it a surprise to the people that there should be no other gods before YHWH or that they should not kill or steal or dishonor parents, etc.? Just some thoughts

Lightenup and all,

The law brought the knowledge that sin is sin but it failed to give the power to overcome sin.

[kerwin]

Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2013,11:06)

If there are moral standards independent of God's will, then there is something over which God is not sovereign. God is bound by the laws of morality instead of being their establisher. For me, I'm not sure he is bound by them, since he seems to be able to bend them.

David,

God is more a force of nature and not a creature in that he is incapable of creatureside since if he cause a person to die it is just their time to die.

Does a hurricane sin, even when it kills men?

[seekingtruth]

Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2013,12:52)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 28 2013,21:44) Quote (david @ Jan. 28 2013,13:39) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 27 2013,07:37) Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2013,04:04) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 26 2013,16:08) David, I believe “God commands it because it is good”, an item is classified as good by how its implementation supports either love of others, or selfishness. That's why love fulfills the law, imagine if all the worlds decisions (business, political, personal) were based on putting others needs first, it would be heaven on earth. Wm Hi seeking truth, I'm not exactly sure what you mean and am also not sure if you hold one of the two options as the answer or not. David, Long time since we've corresponded. I hold the second option listed in your second post. Sorry my response was confusing but I believe a God of love would only call something good if it is. 2. God says something is “good” because it actually is good. Wm This would also make it seem that God is bound by the laws of morality, just as we are. And that Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist. Is God a law giver, a law transmitter?  This is why some do not like this option. David, God is bound by the laws of morality, not because they're “laws” but because it's His nature. God is good, God is love, and love does no wrong. Lying, stealing, etc violate God's very nature. As to “Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist.” Without God nothing exists. Wm Hi seeking. What I'm asking is about what you call the laws of nature themself.  Do they originate from God or is he merely stating what would be true whether he stated it or not.   You are saying God is bound by the standards of what is right or what is wrong, and that its his nature.   Rather than me saying: Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist.”  I should have said:  Morality would still exist even if God never stated what was right or what was wrong.” Ie: stealing or killing would be wrong, whether God said so or not.

Killing is not always wrong (murder is).
Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.

Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; 

Exodus 22:2 “If a thief is killed while trying to break into a house at night, then no one will be guilty for killing him.

Lying about someone is always wrong (a false witness), lying to someone may not be, if done out of love and not selfish gain.

Quote

And if this is the case, if this is what is believed, then does it not seem that God is merely a transmitter or messenger of these truths, rather than an established or creator of them? And if this is believed, could it not also be said that morality does not truly depend on God?

The world is full of examples of morality based on those who have rejected the idea of God, so no I don't believe we're drawn to correct morals. Frankly I do not even understand why you see this as such a hard choice.

Wm

[Ed J]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 02 2013,03:06)

Killing is not always wrong (murder is). Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder. Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed;  Exodus 22:2 “If a thief is killed while trying to break into a house at night, then no one will be guilty for killing him. Lying about someone is always wrong (a false witness), lying to someone may not be, if done out of love and not selfish gain. Wm

Hi Wm,

Excellent wisdom.  (ref. Luke 7:35)

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[david]

Quote

The world is full of examples of morality based on those who have rejected the idea of God, so no I don't believe we're drawn to correct morals. Frankly I do not even understand why you see this as such a hard choice. Wm

Because it effectively makes God just a messenger of morality, rather than the established of morality.

[david]

It also would mean that “right” and “wrong” (good and bad) are not really dependent on God.

[kerwin]

Quote (david @ Feb. 02 2013,09:21)

It also would mean that “right” and “wrong” (good and bad) are not really dependent on God.

David and all,

Jehovah is not a creature of creation and we should not look at him as such.  His Spirit is love as its fruit is the fruit of love.  Jehovah may not have established righteousness because his essential self is righteousness; which is why he does not have the free choice to be tempted by evil nor to do evil.

[kerwin]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 01 2013,13:23)

Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2013,11:06) If there are moral standards independent of God's will, then there is something over which God is not sovereign. God is bound by the laws of morality instead of being their establisher. For me, I'm not sure he is bound by them, since he seems to be able to bend them. David, God is more a force of nature and not a creature in that he is incapable of creatureside since if he cause a person to die it is just their time to die. Does a hurricane sin, even when it kills men?

All,

This is for everyone in general, as well as for David specifically.

[Wakeup]

Quote (david @ Feb. 02 2013,14:21)

It also would mean that “right” and “wrong” (good and bad) are not really dependent on God.

David.

Abraham lied saying his wife is his sister.

wakeup.

[seekingtruth]

Quote (david @ Feb. 02 2013,11:20)

Quote The world is full of examples of morality based on those who have rejected the idea of God, so no I don't believe we're drawn to correct morals. Frankly I do not even understand why you see this as such a hard choice. Wm Because it effectively makes God just a messenger of morality, rather than the established of morality.

I disagree, God as the establisher of morality He has to communicate what is expected, from those it is expected from. This in no way diminishes Him as the establisher (otherwise we are left guessing at what He wants!)

Quote

It also would mean that “right” and “wrong” (good and bad) are not really dependent on God.

How He established “good” from His very character, GOD IS LOVE.

Wm

[Ed J]

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2013,16:33)

David. Abraham lied saying his wife is his sister. wakeup.

Hi Wakeup: NO, he didn't!

“And  yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father,
 but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.” (Gen 20:12 )

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2013,11:33)

Quote (david @ Feb. 02 2013,14:21) It also would mean that “right” and “wrong” (good and bad) are not really dependent on God. David. Abraham lied saying his wife is his sister. wakeup.

Wakeup,

She was his half sister.

Genesis 20:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

He lied by omitting the fact she was also his wife.

[Author]

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