Firstborn of/over all creation

This topic contains 3,675 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Jodi 2 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #832686
     Jodi 
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    Hi Nick,

    Neither Gene nor I deny sheol, we actually define it according to the passages.

    What Gene is saying and what I would likewise say to you is that you define sheol according to PAGAN/ PLATO definitions not by the word of God.

    The word of God tells us men return to the dust, they perish, are destroyed, consumed, they have NO thoughts or consciousness in the grave.

    Numbers 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

    Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Really David is in a conscious tormenting hell until the resurrection? Or is he DEAD having return to the dust, not able to give thanks to God? He is not sleeping the sleep of death with no consciousness not being able to remember God?

    Instead he is in anguish being punished in an underworld?

    Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

    Psalms 49:4 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them;

    Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

    Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

    Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

    Those that think death is upon them are in torment, sometimes God rescues men from going down to the pit, to their death, to their destruction where they perish other times He does not.

    People perish Nick, it is used 118 times in the OT

    6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

    12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

    20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

    12 And the children of Israel spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish

    19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

    Here you go Nick we also have the word DESTROYED, UTTERLY DESTROYED in FACT.

    20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. 

    26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

    23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.

    We also have consumed,

    7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

    35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

    9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

    Here you go Nick,

    35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

    25 As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.

    3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

    Daniel 12:2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.

    It is pretty well established since the beginning in Genesis Nick,

    Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Psalms 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

    God takes AWAY their life and they return to the dust. PERIOD.

    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

    There is NO immortal soul that is PAGAN that is PLATO that is not the word of God.

     

    #832688
     Jodi 
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    If I misunderstood Nick then why don’t you bother to give the correct understanding?

    33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus AGAIN; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

    God raised him again the second time from the dead.

    Was not Jesus BORN of God at the river? Did he not rise up from the water and receive the Spirit? Did he not DIE, and then rise up from the dead being born of GOD AGAIN, this time receiving all gifts including that of eternal life?

     

    #832689
     Lightenup 
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    Hi Jodi,

    13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.

    That is referring to Solomon.

    6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    “This day have I begotten thee” refers to the resurrection day when the Son was brought forth from the grave (begotten from the grave) and became the firstborn from the dead. Please note that the passage first states that Jesus is God’s Son and then says that on that day (the day of His resurrection), God brought Him forth from the grave to eternal life which made Him the firstborn from the dead. The begetting here is the second time He was born of God. The first was before creation which made Him the Firstborn over all creation. Prov 8:22+

    26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    That verse 26, refers to King David.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek;

    That verse 61:1 refers to Jesus, the messiah.

    you said:

    The people beheld his glory full of grace and truth. He was FULL of grace and truth because the LORD had ANOINTED him with His Spirit, and he was then SENT,…

    I disagree. He was full of grace and truth because He was the exact representation of God the Father’s nature, the same essence, because He is an actual true Son in the highest sense.

    BECAUSE the righteous servant shall die for our sins, Jesus would inherit from the LORD a portion divided among the great. 

    Jehovah sent His own ARM to bring Him salvation. The ARM is Jehovah’s own Son, always a part of the Father. If the Son did not die, there would be no inheritance of eternal life to share with any human. The Son who made all things and whom all things are made for, already owned creation by being made Lord over the works of His hands. His coming to be the unblemished sacrificial lamb in the flesh of a man provided a way for mankind to be saved and share in the inheritance of eternal life.

    That’s all I will address for now, Jodi. It should give you a pretty good idea of how I see your scriptures. I have to prepare some dinner.

    God bless!

     

     

    #832701
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    No point in trying to educate experts.

    The same foundation can teach different things.

    prayer is the answer.

    #832702
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Did you read other translations of Acts 13 or are you totally reliant on one?

    #832703
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Acts 2.27

    “ Because You did not abandon my soul to Hades

    nor

    allow your holy one to undergo decay”

    But you do not accept that the Hades described by Jesus in Lk16 exists?

     

    #832704
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Many cult leaders will use only the Kjv and regard all other translations as inferior.

    It is a version based on a choice of the most common manuscripts.

    The choice of the Textus Receptus is human and not divine.

     

    The old fashioned English can cause confusion and it has as many faults as other versions.

    #832705
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    There is a division between soul and spirit.

    The spirit returns to God, the body to the dust but your soul awaits judgement.

    #832706
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Surely your research before claiming Jesus was born again twice involves more than one translation?

    Surely you have found other verses that say the same thing?

    Surely you do not want us to take your word for it?

    #832713
     Anthony 
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    Hi Lightenup

    I looked into the arm of the Lord.

    The Zeroah Revealed

    We recall the passage above in Isaiah 53:1, asks the question, “…to whom is the arm [zeroah]of the LORD revealed?”

    From this question, we understand that the zeroah is not readily seen and comprehended, unless it is ‘revealed’ — that is, unless the Spirit of Yahuweh reveals its identity.

    So let’s summarise what we have thus seen:

    • The Zeroah is the ‘He’ who was wounded because our transgressions of Torah, according to Isaiah 53:5;
    • The Zeroah is the ‘He’ by whose stripes, or wounds, we are healed, and made whole, according to Isaiah 53:5;
    • The Zeroah is the ‘Him’ upon whom Yahuweh has laid the iniquity of us all, according to Isaiah 53:6;
    • The Zeroah is the commemoration ‘Remembrance’ of the Passover Lamb, whose blood on the doorpost brought deliverance from death of the first-born of Israel, according to Exodus 12:1-14, and Passover seder tradition;
    • The Zeroah is the Lamb slain at Passover, according to Passover seder tradition;
    • The Zeroah is the Lamb slain as a Sacrifice, whose blood effected reconciliation or remission of sins, according to Leviticus 16:15-16 and 2Chronicles 29:24;
    • The Zeroah is the Messiah,according to the sages of old.

    Now we ask again: To whom is the arm [zeroah] of Yahuweh revealed?

    Who has believed the report seen in Isaiah 53? Who has believed this astonishing news or tidings presented?

    • To those who have believed the report, the Zeroah Of Yahuweh reveals Messiah in the Passover Seder;
    • To those who have believed the report, the Zeroah Of Yahuweh reveals Messiah as the One seen in the Isaiah 53 passages;
    • To those who have believed the report, the Zeroah Of Yahuweh reveals Messiah as the Passover Lamb;
    • To those who have believed the report, the Zeroah Of Yahuweh reveals Messiah as the sacrificial Lamb, whose Blood has purchased the remission of our sins.

    To those who have not yetbelieved the report, the Zeroah  remains only as a memorial of the One who, in a figure, is looking up from the Passover seder plate, continuing to yearn after His people, awaiting the day when “the lights go on.”

    Until then, let us continue to keep the Passover. Let us do this in remembrance of Him, the Zeroah of Yahuweh, the Passover Lamb, whose Blood on the doorpost of our own heart delivers us from death!

    God bless Anthony   Thanks

    #832715
     Anthony 
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    Hi lightenup .  Here the link to what I sent

    https://notesfromthewilderness-wordpress-com.

     

    #832716
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Nick….you are wrong, when a person dies they are truly dead, and never again will live, unless God recreates them, from the dust of the earth again and adds the breath of life back into them again. Your concept of a person still alive after death is a false pagan teaching, drives from the false the of plato, Aristotle and other Greek and Egyptian teachings.

    I tell you the truth , if Jesus’ body and the breath of life put back into it, he still would be “DEAD”, TO THIS VERY DAY.

    IT is apsolutely crucial that we attain to the resurection from the dead. The resurection that witnesses the redemption of our BODIES. Just as the apostle Paul said, and as what happened to Jesus.

    Jodi is right also on this nick Nick, your teachings on life after death in a neither world is false brother.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    #832718
     Jodi 
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    Hi Nick,

    So you would prefer to frame your belief on a parable and disregard many scriptures?

    A parable is a non true story given to teach a specific lesson, this specific lesson and the truth within that lesson had nothing to do with declaring what happens to you when you die, that is NOT the PURPOSE of the parable to teach about what happens to you when you die, the purpose rather teaches what you need to believe in and follow when you are ALIVE.  The part of the parable that is not true in anyway but used to teach the actual lesson that reveals what is true, is PROVEN to not be true by many other scriptures.

    Thinking that it is true creates some major problems for you Nick.

    Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

    Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption…. 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul (psuche) was not left in hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    So according to you Nick, believing in the wicked going to hell and the righteous going to Abraham’s bosom, how is it that David who died in faith of the resurrection did not go to Abraham’s bosom, but instead David went to hell?

    Why does David if it is a place of actual torment say that he is sleeping the sleep of death?

    Psalms 13: 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

    Likewise Jesus speaks of DEATH as sleep, not in a PARABLE but in REAL LIFE.

    John 11: 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    Also we have,

    Daniel 12: 2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.

    ALL that are DEAD are in the same place they have decayed and are in the dust, some will rise to reward while others judgment.

    Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Psalms 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    You can rely on prayer and ask God to give you some special revelation outside of clear scripture if you want Nick.

    You can follow Plato all you want Nick, and the so called “early church fathers” who loved him, and interpreted the NT through pagan eyes. You can bet that the Jews, yah plural, more than one, who wrote the book of Enoch, after Plato’s beliefs were well established and popular, were also influenced by him too. I think you had said that the second death is total annihilation of the wicked, that is not what the authors who wrote in their book of Enoch.

    I rely on the words of God from the wise Solomon, from David, from Daniel, and from Jesus himself.

    7 And the LORD said, I will destroy MAN whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    God sets out to destroy SIN, in order to do that He destroys the sinner. He is not accomplishing that if He transports the sinner out of their bodies, and keeps the spirits of sinners alive. We are MADE of the dust and we RETURN to the dust, our brain that is part of our body where the mind lives, where our thoughts, memories, desires, feelings, beliefs, and behaviors come from, DIES with rest of our body, becomes DUST like the rest of our bodies.

    This is EXACTLY why we are told,

    Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

    Jesus did not preach to dead spirits in hell, he preached to live spirits in a prison. For the dead CANNOT hope for thy truth.

    Ecclesiastes 9: For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing

    There are NO Lazarus actually in Abraham’s bosom consciously living a reward, as there are no rich men in hell consciously living in torment.

    Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

    #832719
     Jodi 
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    I realize Nick for you to come out of your false belief about immortal souls, also creates other false beliefs that you would need to come out of!! That may be quite the challenge for you.

    #832720
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Souls are not immortal.

    Fear Him Who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

    #832722
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    You say a arable is a ‘NON TRUE STORY’

    Parables are part of the truth revealed by God.

    Do you not accept this?

    #832723
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    The anointed man, Jonah, died and went to Hades and cried out to the Lord God,

    He was heard, was broken out of that prison and resurrected to life on earth.

    The sign of Jonah, the resurrection of a man from death, is vital to grasp.

     

    The Spirit of eternal life is given here but is effective forever.

    Death, where is thy sting?

    #832724
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    David was anointed as a priest and a king.

    You say that scriture says he went to Hades. Where?

    It says his BODY SUFFERED CORRUPTION, in contrast to Jesus.

    It says that David ‘died and was buried and his tomb is with us to this day.’

    Corruption of the body is the fate of all who are not anointed and alive at the return of Jesus.

     

     

    #832725
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Nick….IT’S THE INTERPUTATIONS THAT ARE TRUE , THE PARABLES are alagories or metaphorically language, they were never made to be taken litteral. They need to be interpreted properly, or you can come up with all kinds of different conclusion, like you believing when a man dies he goes to a place of torment, you use that to support your false assumptions of a person still living after they die.

    That simply is not true brother. When a person dies they completely parish, and will stay that way unless they are resurected by GOD the Father, back to life again.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    #832726
     Jodi 
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    Thank you Anthony for the post about zer-o’-ah!

    I feel LU needs to dig deeper into the scriptures and find what they actually say and do not say, as I feel she is skimming the top and only pulling out a verse here and there and trying to make it fit into her own ideas.

    This is what I tried to point out earlier and I hope these scriptures together make it more clear.

    Psalms 79:11 Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power (zeroah) preserve thou those that are appointed to die;

    Psalms 98:1 O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.

    Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? 12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

    Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

    The arm of  Moses that performed great sign and wonders did so through the arm of the LORD, meaning His powers that He can give through His Spirit. This is how Moses is a prophet having been anointed with the LORD’S Spirit being able to speak the LORD’S words and perform the LORD’S will through powerful works.

    John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

    Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Jesus was not a prophet until he was anointed at the river, this is the prophet that came into the world having been sent from heaven. This prophet was like Moses, having a glorious arm through which he performed signs and miracles by the LORD’S powerful Spirit. This prophet did not come as a pre-existing spirit, he came already existing as a human, of thy brethren, that was then anointed, just as Moses was of thy brethren and then he was anointed.

    John 6:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    They BEHELD his glory, THEY SAW the glory of the only begotten of the Father!! What did they SEE??… they saw a MAN that had been anointed at the river and was going about speaking the LORD’S words with authority, they saw him performing miracles and signs. They saw the great prophet that was a brother among them that had been promised would come. They saw the seed of David made into a Son of God. This Son was sent out into the world, and this Son is who the Father gave over unto death to pay for our sins.

    THEY saw the WORD of God that was spoken to the prophets be fulfilled in the man Jesus who was born of flesh and blood of the seed of David, and then was born of God’s Spirit. They then heard the word of the LORD through Jesus, likewise a prophet, a great one at that, one born of the Spirit without measure, the ONLY mortal born of the Spirit without measure. 

    WHO IS IT that THEY SAW FULL of GRACE and TRUTH?? Not a pre-existing son, they SAW a man that had been anointed with the Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE!!!!!

    The problem is that LU wants us to see glory in a pre-existing son’s spirit placed into a man, the problem is that she wants us to see in the man Jesus a pre-existing only begotten son.

    The glory that the people beheld was the WORKS of the Father’s Spirit in an anointed MAN, the glory that the people beheld was a Son of Man becoming the ONLY MORTAL BORN of God’s Spirit without measure. The glory that the people saw was a perfected man dying on the cross for our sins and then rising again as a human being with eternal life. Our hope is to be as he is now. The glory that the people beheld was in seeing God’s WORD be fulfilled in the man Jesus, resulting in having faith in the One True God the Father. 

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