Who and what is Jesus? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God?
Part 03 Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Scripture clearly tell us who Jesus really is

Matthew 3:17 (English-NIV)
“And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”

If the Father is God, then who is Jesus?
Well the above scripture says that Jesus is God’s son. The scriptures are very clear with the identity of Jesus.
Jesus even asked Peter who he was and Jesus commended Peter for his answer. In fact Jesus built his Church on the truth that Peter uttered.

In Matthew 16:13-17 (English-NIV) it says
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Notice that Peter didn’t say to Jesus, “You are God”, as many today say. If Jesus were God then this would have been the perfect opportunity to declare that?

Many people today given this opportunity would declare that Jesus is God. So why didn’t Peter just say that Jesus was God as most who believe in the Trinity would have. Because this revelation didn’t come from man or man’s wisdom, but from the Father. The Father also revealed this sacred truth to James, John, and Peter with Elijah and Moses as witnesses:

Mark 9:7 (English-NIV)
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

So who are we to argue or change this truth?
See also Matthew 17:5 for a parallel account and 2 Peter 1:17 as confirmation
It is also interesting to note that the demons never referred to Jesus as God. They referred to him as the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 (English-NIV)
“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Luke 4:41 (English-NIV)
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Even Satan didn’t refer to Jesus as God but rather the Son of God.

See Matthew 4:3-6 (English-NIV)
3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Philippians 2:8-11 shows us that eventually everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This is the correct confession. If everyone will eventually confess this truth, then why not start now. To declare that Jesus Christ is God is a different confession and shows a lack of understanding about who Jesus really is.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Many today do not understand that Lord and God are 2 different words. Just as Pharaoh was the true ruler of Egypt, he gave his authority to Joseph who was Lord over all the Pharaoh’s kingdom. It must also be noted that Lord and LORD are 2 different words. The Father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. Translators capitalize the name of God as LORD which causes this confusion. So Jesus being Lord is not the same as the LORD in the Old Testament. LORD comes from the name of God, YHWH.

To say that Jesus is the LORD is to say that he is the one true God (YHWH) and it is not correct and nor is it taught in scripture. When referring to Jesus, he is Lord and we know that there are many lords. Landlords, warlords, lords over kingdoms etc. But God made Jesus Lord over all creation or over all that is of God.

Acts 2:36 (English NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 10:36 (English NIV)
You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Seven scriptures that paint a clear picture about Jesus and who he is

These scripture do not mention a Trinity or even hint at such a thought.
If you want to believe in the real Jesus, then believe these scriptures, and know that they were inspired by God himself. If we are true disciples, we will trust in the scriptures rather than the cleverly devised doctrines of man.

Colossians 1:12-16 (English-NIV)
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Hebrews 1:1-6 (English-NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherhood him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god/theos.

Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Revelation 3:14 (English-KJV)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1:3 (English-NIV)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

These 7 passages of scripture show us the following:
God has spoken to us through the prophets and now his son. The son is that exact brightness of God’s glory. He is the express image of God. God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God). He is seated at the right hand of God He inherited a name more superior to the Angels. God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”. Jesus God is our God too. He is the firstborn from the dead. Jesus has first place in everything. Jesus is head over the Church. He is God’s firstborn. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God.

So Jesus is the Image of God, the Son of God and the beginning of the creation of God. Being an image is another way to say you are not the original. That concurs with a son not being the Father. This is very easy to understand, but the Trinity Doctrine confuses the minds of many believers, so that they do not understand the truth that God is one person/identity and that this God has a son who is like him.

Further clarification on who Jesus really is

The Trinity Doctrine would have us believe that the Father and Son have always existed for all eternity together, when in actual fact it is God the Father who has existed for all eternity. It may be true that Jesus existed for all time because time is a part of the created universe and we know that the Jesus being the son is of the Father and creation came through Jesus. By creation I mean us too. And to take it further, the woman came from the man. So it is the Father who is the one who is from everlasting to everlasting see the following scripture:

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

Jesus is the Word of God. Another title that states he is of God or from God. Revelation 19:11-13 (English-KJV)
11  I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.
With justice he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Here we can see that Jesus is the author of life, yet it was God that raised him from the dead. So we cannot say as many do that Jesus is God because creation came from him. Rather we have to understand that God created all things though his Word, who is Christ.

The next scripture shows us that the Father is God and Jesus is his son. We read that Jesus himself learned obedience through suffering, just like us. We are then called to obey Jesus who is the high priest and our eternal salvation. But if Jesus were God, then how could he actually learn something. Isn’t God suppose to be all knowing?

Hebrews 5:8-10 (English-NIV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Continuing with the theme of God being all knowing, below you will see scriptures that show us that Jesus was not all knowing.

Matthew 24:36 (English-NIV)
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:30 (English-NIV)
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Mark 10:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he
asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

Here we can see that Jesus said that only God is good, and he made it quite plain that he did not want to be called good.
Jesus also doesn’t know the hour that he will return to earth, and he also testified that he does nothing of himself, only what he hears from God. These 3 scriptures show a different picture than the 3 persons in 1 God formula called the Trinity, that was devised by man, hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written, and is not mentioned in either the Old or New Testament. To truly honor Jesus Christ we must honor who he is. Remember that Jesus is the Truth. He is the Son of the Living God, the Messiah. So we must not only believe the truth with regards to who Jesus really is, but we must also recognize that he is the Truth. If we say that Jesus is one of the equal persons that make up God, then we are not speaking the truth, rather we are following the doctrines of man and demon. Jesus taught us clearly that his Father is his God and that he is greater than himself. To truly honor the Father we must honor his Son. To honor Jesus is to believe the truth about him and believe his own words.

John 14:28 (English-NIV)
“You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 13:16 (English-NIV)
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 6:29 (English NIV)
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

When Jesus came to earth he came for a reason. He came to destroy the works of the Devil. See the next 2 scriptures:

Hebrews 2:14 (English-NIV)
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil

1 John 3:8 (English-NIV)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Jesus also came to show us God, to declare him and to bring us back into fellowship with God, this actually equates to destroying the work of the Devil. It is the Devils works that have alienated Man from God, it is Jesus works commissioned by the Father that brings man back to God.

John 17:26 (English-NIV)
I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

John 14:8-9 (English-NIV)
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father’? Here we can see that Jesus was teaching the disciples about the Father.

Jesus was not saying he was the Father, he was declaring/revealing him. Jesus was also showing the disciples who he was, i.e. the Image of God. That is why he could say “If you have seen me you have seen the Father”. If we want to know what our Father, (the invisible eternal Spirit) looks like, then all we have to do is look at Jesus who is the image of the invisible God. He is the likeness of God in bodily form. He is the only begotten Son of God and remember that he is the only one who can see God and the only one who can declare him.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The next scriptures point out quite clearly that we must honor the Son if we are to honor our Father God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 12:44 (English-NIV)
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

If Jesus is the Image of his Father, then it makes sense that whatever we say about Jesus we are also saying about his Father. If we slander Jesus then we are slandering God, not because Jesus is God, rather he is like God. If you slander the Son would that not be offensive to the Father. It is interesting to note that Jesus also said that whatever we say about the least of his brethren, we are saying it to him, this is because we (believers) are being made into the image of Christ. But this doesn’t actually make us Christ, rather we are like him. God -> Christ -> Man/Church.

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us. But some try to say that Jesus is the Deity, yet they know full well that we are not Christ. To be divine and to be the Divine are 2 different things. One identifies a nature/quality and the other identifies a person or identity. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, i.e., his sons. Christ has divine nature. But we can also partake of the divine nature and even then we are not God and nor will we ever be God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The next 3 scriptures show us all good gifts come from the Father, this even includes Jesus himself and God’s Spirit too. God begat Jesus and God’s Spirit proceeds from himself. We were given birth from God through the Word of Truth who is Jesus. This confirms that the head of man is Christ.

James 1:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.

Romans 8:32 (English-NIV)
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Luke 11:13 (English-NIV)
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” We know that Jesus is the Son of God, but do we believers worship him?

Hebrews 1:6 (English-NIV)
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him. This verse shows us that God wants his Angels to worship Jesus.

Matthew 2:2 (English-NIV)
and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”

Matthew 2:8 (English-NIV)
He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and make a careful search for the child.
As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.” But doesn’t worshipping Jesus contradict many scriptures?

Exodus 34:14 (English-NIV)
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Luke 4:8 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’

Worshipping Jesus is scriptural and actually doesn’t contradict the above scriptures. Why? Because we do not worship Jesus as God, rather the Son of God and the Lamb of God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Revelation 5: 12-14 (English-NIV)
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The last verse above shows us that God and Jesus are worshipped in heaven. We worship Jesus as the Son of God and we worship the Father as God. All honor and worship to Jesus is really honor and worship to the Father anyway, because Jesus is the only way to God. Not all worship and praise is identified as being toward God alone. At times God’s servants receive praise such as King David, but such praise glorifies God. For if God’s representatives receive praise for doing the will of God, then it is ultimately God that receives that praise. We can even worship God by simply acknowledging the beauty of nature and the universe, as long as we acknowledge that God created then. So Jesus shares the same honor that is due to the Father as he visibly represents his Father, the Invisible God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 14:6 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The Trinity Doctrine encourages people to worship three as God

Those who worship the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate persons and each as God are really worshipping more than one God. Trinitarian believers will refute this and say that the three persons are one God, yet they worship any of the 3 that they want to at anytime. Let’s just get real here and admit that such people worship three Gods. On one day it may be the Son, another the Father and another the Holy Spirit or all at the same time. But the scriptures are very clear with regards to worshipping the one true God. YHWH is the one true God. So the scriptures are quite clear as to who Jesus is. He is the Son of God and the Messiah. We also know that by it’s very definition, a Father is the originator and a Son has a source.

Is the son the same age as the Father?

Some people believe that Jesus Christ did not exist before his birth on earth, even though they acknowledge that Jesus is the Logos/Word. They say that he didn’t actually exist as a person till he was clothed in flesh and was born on this earth. Others say that Jesus is eternal like the Father in the sense that he has always existed as the Son. In other words God has always been a father. What do the scriptures say about this?

John 6:8
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

The above scripture points out two things. First, that Jesus came from Heaven, so he must have existed in Heaven before his birth as a man, and secondly that he has his own will and he chose to align his will with God’s will meaning that he is not God but another.

The next scripture shows clearly that Christ existed before he came to earth.

John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ “

We know from scripture that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. This verse shows pre-existence.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

This verse is either saying that glory, majesty, power… before all ages or it is saying the same thing but through Jesus Christ before all ages. Most translations favour the second option, but some do not mention the ‘through Jesus Christ’ part such as the King James version. I leave that one up to you to think about.

1Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So it is possible that Christ accompanied Moses and the Jews when they left Egypt. Although this strictly speaking is the anointing, it could also refer to the one who is anointed.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So God who created all things, created them through Christ. Surely this suggests that he must have existed before all things in order for God to create all things. The universe, the angels, man, and animals existed before Jesus was born as a man. But the scriptures say that God created all these things through Christ.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So Jesus had glory before the world began. How can some people say that Jesus didn’t pre-exist his earthly existence as a man?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word ‘god’ which is talking about the nature of God. i.e., In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another identity and  had the nature of that God. For more information about this, visit this page: (NOTE: opens in a different tab).

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10. Jesus said that he saw Satan fall. Was this in a vision or did he literally see him fall?.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

The last verse says I am, which means I exist or I existed. This is the clearest statement of Jesus existing before he came to earth as a man. Jesus himself said these words, so who are we to say otherwise?

Finally to conclude this part of the study, I want to point out a very interesting scripture from the Book of Proverbs. The verse is Proverbs 8:22-30  and it talks about the concept of wisdom, then to wisdom himself:

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

From this verse we can see the following points.

  • This person was brought forth as the first of Gods works. This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. This person was given birth before creation.
  • This person was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
  • This person is not the same age as the Father.

But some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way as wisdom is referred to as a she. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person.

Even today we refer to objects or concepts as ‘she’. We call boats, cars, storms, etc., ‘she’. e.g., “She was a bad storm alright”, or “She can really go fast”. But if I said “He can really go fast” when talking about a car, then no one would understand what I meant and would think I was talking about a person and not a car.

But if wisdom in God was the first to be begotten (brought forth) then who was really first to be begotten? Was it wisdom or the son? Or are they one in the same? For God created all things with wisdom and would it be incorrect to call Jesus ‘Wisdom’. If God created all things in truth, would it be incorrect to call Christ the ‘Truth’. If God who is the originator of all life gave that life to his son, then could we not say that Jesus is the ‘Life’. It appears that he is all those concepts or attributes of God, but personified. After all God created all creation through Christ and so would it not be befitting for Christ to be the personification of all those attributes of God.

Remember these two points:

  1. That the fullness of God’s nature dwells in Christ and Christ is a person. So if he reflects the fullness of God, then would it not be fair to say that Christ has all the attributes of God in person. He is God’s image after all.
  2. That Christ is between God and creation. He is the part or person where creation interfaces with God and God interfaces with creation. He is the only mediator for us. God created all things through his wisdom, and through his Word. Are both the Word and Wisdom Jesus Christ? Look at 1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at a range of God’s attributes that Jesus personifies:

  • truth
  • life
  • light
  • peace
  • word
  • wisdom?

If we go back to Proverbs 8:22-30 and look at John 1:1, we see the following similarities.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.
Compare with “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Compare with “When there were no oceans, I was given birth”. Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Compare with “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. Proverbs 8:30

This topic contains 208 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 2 years, 8 months ago.

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    Concerning the preexistence of the Messiah Yahushuah (Jesus), just as YHWH knew the number of hairs on my head, I preexisted in the Father’s mind. This is the way in which the Hebrew people looked at preexistence and that was the way it was expressed in the Torah. We have to look at it in the same way. Also, the word LOGOS translated “Word” also means plan or intent of the mind. All new testament translations come from Greek writings and as such speak from a different perspective than the Hebrew and Aramaic spoken and as such cannot convey all of their nuances. Remember that all things were made according to YHWH’s plan and intent. Yahushuah lived in YHWH’s mind prior to his earthly existence as his implement of salvation before the beginning since YHWH didn’t do anything without a plan.

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    Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. I am means to exist. And while God is said to be “I am that I am”, the ever-existing one, Jesus was not claiming to be the “I am” of the OT, but simply that he existed. We make the same declaration many times when people ask us “Are you Joe Blogs” and you reply, “I am”.

    And given the context that Abraham lived in the past, Jesus was being asked how old he was. In English this equates to “I have been” or “I have been existing” since it is existence that is being spoken of. Thus, “I have been existing before Abraham” is what it is saying in the Greek and the given context.

    Jesus answered your question with his own lips, so it is up to you to believe what he said.

     david schofield
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    is there someone that can get back to my comment from yesterday?

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    It is there. You may have to reload the page to see it. It is below your comment. If you can read this comment, then you will be able to see the below comment.

     Tariq Shakoor
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    I still don’t understand the whole notion that all creation came through Jesus Christ. This would mean that Jesus pre-existed, wouldn’t it?

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    Correct. He is the firstborn of all creation. He came directly from God and was not part of the creation process except when he partook of flesh to become like us to save us.

    Let’s face it. Someone had to be first and whoever that was would be the firstborn of all creation. He would be blessed above all, and would know the Father more than any other since there would be God and the firstborn. All these qualities are described in scripture and are about Jesus Christ. Further, we are explicit told that God created all things through him. Thus he was the Word that was with God.

    The second-century fathers certainly had this view. They saw him as the first work of the Father and was the Logos that was with God.

     Saini Mateke
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    Now what do you say about Isaiah 9:6? It says Jesus is The Everlasting Father.

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    I believe that Ab is the word used here, the same word used in reference to Abraham or father Abraham. The Pharisees claimed their father was Abraham, so everlasting father would be an apt title to describe Yeshua who is not only greater than Abraham but everlastingly greater.

    Clearly, Jesus is not the Heavenly Father, he is the son of the Heavenly Father.

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    t8 downplays the significance of this verse to fit with his logical notions.. turning the very titles of Christ into nice little meaningless delusions that won’t conradict his corrupt teaching of Jesus as just another god.. like every other cult teaching that denies the triune nature of God

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    DavidL, are you suggesting then that Jesus is actually the Father then. Because he is either the Heavenly Father or not, and I say not. I then give an good explanation using the word AB and how it is also applied to Abraham. So if I am downplaying this, please provide proof that Jesus is not what I said, by showing me he is the Heavenly Father or some other explanation. This will be interesting.

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    Well…you could spend your life writing books about it, or you could just say – JESUS IS GOD..!!!

    Take a fresh look at verses like, “If you have seen Me you have seen the Father,” and “Before Abraham was, I AM,” – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”…etc

    and don’t beat up your brains about it, understanding Scripture is not a mental exercise – it is the work of the Spirit to reveal Truth…

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    You said, “t8 downplays the significance of this verse”.

    You had no come back. So you concede that your comment was not a good one. Thank you and this proves that you are just in accuse mode now. This is what happened to the Pharisees. They tried to disprove Yeshua’s words and actions, and when he supported them all with scripture, they just falsely accused him in the end. Why be like them? You have the chance to be a better person DavidL. Don’t squander it.

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    DavidL, you cherry pick verses that can be twisted to support your view, whereas I take the full counsel of scripture including these scriptures you have quoted.

    The conclusion is that you obviously choose to view these scriptures in the way that supports your view, but then have to ignore the rest which BTW, is most. In other words, your evidence is the speck and you ignore the plank.

    I honestly could not live like that myself. When my head hit the pillow each night, I would be worried about my view not agreeing with most scripture. ANd I would worry because I care about these things. Seriously, I could not live with myself.

    Read these verses in good conscience with your understanding of a triune God. I bet you have to admit to yourself that each verse is broken. Question is, what will you do about it? Continue with the tradition of man, or be transformed by the word of God?

    100 indisputable proof verses – The Trinity Doctrine

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    your response confirms just how focused and dependent you are on logic to determine truth – actually you constantly reveal the nature of your error..yet continually deny it..(I think that’s called “Blindness”).

    You put forth a teaching based on your own carnal assumptions that denies one of the most major revelations of Scripture…then you call me a Pharisee for not accepting your deception…!?!

    lol I sleep very well at night thanks.

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    Logic confirms that there is one God and that there is one who was first to be with him. However, without resorting to logic, scripture confirms this to be so. So on scripture alone we have one God the Father, one true God who sent his son, and God and his son.

    The truth is confirmed by many witnesses. You can attack the witnesses, but that will never change one iota of truth.

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    I can ALSO confirm to you that God sent His only Son…your argument misses the mark completely as Christ has MANY titles… but you deny the Scriptures where He is plainly called GOD..!!

    ..BECAUSE you have taken issue with the Trinity doctrine and now interpret Scripture according to your own carnal reasoning..!!

     Elysa Makayat
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    “I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” (John 10:30-33) The Jews killed Jesus because they denied that Jesus was God in flesh. There is not any prior account of anyone in the Bible being killed for claiming to pre-exist if Jesus was merely claiming pre-existence.
    John 8:56-59, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews therefore said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.” Jesus was referring back to when Moses was at the burning bush and asked God what His name was. God said, “I AM that I AM. Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.” (Exodus 3:14).

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    Your concerns are addressed in page:

    Supporting the Trinity Doctrine – The Trinity Doctrine

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    Hi, I’ve been a born again christian for 23y (not that that gives me any credence as I’m still discovering just how amazing Yehovah is) & I’ve always been taught about the 3 persons of the trinity. However in the last couple of years, after receiving a personal crushing from Yehovah, allowing my eye’s to be opened to more of His spirit & truth,I have done a lot of study for myself. So just a suggestion. Wherever you see the word LORD or GOD in all caps, replace it with the one true God’s actual name, Yehovah (or Yahweh if you prefer) then see how it fits with Jesus (actual name Yehoshua or Yeshua for short) being Yehovah. At this stage it seems to me they are not one & the same. Also the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) is not a third person but is Yehovah’s spirit. Consider: Genesis 1:1 says ‘In the beginning God (Elohiym in the Hebrew, being a generic title, not His actual name), created the heaven & the earth. 1:3 then records ‘God said’ meaning He spoke using words (Yeshua is the word that became flesh) Compare that to John 1:1. Yeshua is Yehovah’s word which he spoke in the beginning to create everything so Yeshua (Yehovah’s word) was with Yehovah in the beginning, was used to create everything & as Yehovah’s spoken word, effectively is from Yehovah in that he is Yehovah’s voice / spoken command / Torah. However Yehovah’s word is not Yehovah Himself but is his truth. When the word was made flesh he still remains Yehovah’s truth, a separate entity to Yehovah Himself (just as the rest of His creation is separate) but as His word / truth Yeshua has all the authority of Yehovah. From our fleshly perspective Yeshua is a separate entity to Yehovah, is subject to Yehovah (as is the Ruach HaKodesh which always has been & always will remain spirit). Also I recommend you look into the Hebrew wedding model where the father (Yehovah) chooses the bride (ekklesia / church) for His son (Yeshua) & the son’s best friend / best man (Holy spirit / Ruach HaKodesh) helps the bride to learn how to get ready for / please her betrothed when He returns for her.
    Blessings to all who seek Him in Spirit AND truth

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    That was a good and clear explanation of the son of God,but failed to address; who the Word of God was before His birth.
    He was not the Son of God before His birth.
    Before He was made flesh.
    The Word was with God and the Word was God.
    We need more detail.


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