John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,521 through 19,540 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #813757
    terraricca
    Participant

    Kerwin
    I am sorry I did not include all the words needed for my question to be understood. I have stated it twice before and believe both times I included all the words.
    ============================================

    just ask it again and more clearly so that my little brain can understand it

    #813758
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    t8 like you, fails to understand the unity. If he and you did not then you would come to the correct understanding of numerous passages that teach us about the unity and Jesus’s role in it. In your case it may be because you do not understand the Spirit.
    ===========================================================
    there is very little difference between me and t8 even Mike ; the difference may well lay on the background we have and the age difference and so the amount of time spend in the study ;but we will recognize a truth when we see or hear one ,this is the most important thing of all ,

    we have learn not to add or delete from scriptures ,this is true unity

    ————————————–
    In your case it may be because you do not understand the Spirit.
    ==================================================

    it is you that do not understand the spirit ;you using this word like a magic word and it is not ,many spirits are here but only one his the truth of God

    #813760
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    Some places where you add to Scripture.

    Genesis 1

    Jesus is not mentioned Genesis 1 though you want him to be there. Instead God, his word, and his Spirit are all mentioned.

    Let us refers to the Unity as it existed which is one God, one word spoken by God, one Spirit, and one body that was composed of angels.

    The presence of the angels are not mentioned in Genesis 1 but it is mentioned in Job 38:6-7.

    The word that comes out of God’s mouth was in the place Jesus would be placed in after he died, he would be made heir to that place when he came into the world, and he will step down from it after all things are done. The word is still in that place and will be in it after Jesus step down.

    In short you add Jesus to Genesis 1 to strengthen you case despite that he is not mentioned there.1

    #813761
    Ed J
    Participant

    it is the [b]scriptures that says the Jesus is THE WORD[/b] “of God not religion

    Hi Pierre,

    Produce the Scripture that says that.

    #813762
    terraricca
    Participant

    Ed/K/N

    Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
    Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
    Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Jn 1:33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’
    Jn 1:34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature/form of God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    Phil 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father

    Ps 49:7 No man can redeem the life of another
    or give to God a ransom for him—

    Ps 49:8 the ransom for a life is costly,
    no payment is ever enough—
    Ps 49:9 that he should live on forever
    and not see decay.

    Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
    Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
    Heb 2:11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
    Heb 2:12 He says,
    “I will declare your name to my brothers;
    in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”
    Heb 2:13 And again,
    “I will put my trust in him.”

    And again he says,
    “Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
    Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
    Heb 2:15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
    Heb 2:16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
    Heb 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
    Heb 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

    Jn 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

    “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
    Jn 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

    Jn 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Jn 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

    Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
    Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
    Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

    1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
    1Jn 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
    1Jn 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
    1Jn 1:4 We write this to make our joy complete.

    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
    Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    those are some of the scriptures but there are many more ;

    Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message

    I want to question you guys about what MESSAGE DO YOU FOLLOW ,FOR THE ONE I FOLLOW IS THE ONE YOU JUST READ ABOVE ,AND I DO NOT CHANGE A THING IN ANY VERSION

    but we have to admit that based on those above scriptures ;Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a)God.

    should be”a god” and not “GOD”

    but you can debate that scriptures are there to prove its self to you ,

    #813763
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Pierre,

    I see that you’ve got nothing. I have given at least three scriptures
    that prove conclusively that “The Word” is not Jesus. But I see
    that you would rather hang onto what religion has taught.

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #813764
    terraricca
    Participant

    ED

    now I can see and all can also that you have made the scriptures a false religion and your opinions a true one ,

    so you have denied the son of God ;

    1JN 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
    1JN 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
    1JN 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
    2JN 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist AKJV

    #813765
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    The pronoun “he” is referring to the word. The flesh it is united with at the time is a characteristic. Jesus is that flesh.

    It is a figurative narration, a beautiful picture formed from words used to symbolize ideas.

    The word that comes out of God’s mouth has been send to earth and taken on the characters of the human Jesus Christ. Feminists might want to put Jesus before the word of God by stating Jesus is the word but John’ wording place the word in the dominate position of the union. In it Jesus serves the word of God as a wife serves her husband in their marriage. In addition Jesus gives humanity to the word that bears the likeness of God.

    The order of words is important, for example “God is Love” does not mean “Love is God”.

    #813766
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    Hebrews 1:6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    This tells the first begotten was not worshiped by angels before God brought him into the world. So if the first begotten is Jesus and he preexisted as you claim he did not hold hold position of Lord in the unity of the Spirit.

    #813767
    Ed J
    Participant

    “then [color=black][b]“The Word”[/b] of the LORD [b]came to me, saying”[/b][/color] (Jer. 18:5)

    Hi Pierre,

    For what you to believe to be true, then Jer.18:5 MUST MEAN:
    .
    1. Jesus Christ came to Jeremiah the prophet
    – and –
    2. Jesus Christ spoke to Jeremiah the prophet
    .
    YOU and everybody else knows that CANNOT BE WHAT IT MEANS because of the very next verse:
    [color=black]”O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? [b]saith JEHOVAH”[/b][/color] (Jer 18:6)
    So this is enough to show what you believe is all washed up!
    .
    But of course religious brainwashing has too strong a hold on your mind for you to abandon it!
    .
    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #813772
    terraricca
    Participant

    ED
    Jer 18:1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD?
    Jer 18:2 “Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.”
    Jer 18:3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel.
    Jer 18:4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him
    Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
    Jer 18:6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

    Mt 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

    what is it that is so different from those scriptures ?

    you seem to declare that the 30 and more scriptures are now void just because you don’t want to understand the truth ? not so

    THE WORD was Jesus and like always he was the spokesperson for God ,always was and always will be

    it is obvious that what he says does not come from him but from the one that has sent him ;this is so simple why can you not understand it ?

    your view does not make those scriptures I showed you void ;it is your false interpretation that will kill you for you remain in your sins ,for you deny the truth

    #813773
    terraricca
    Participant

    Kerwin
    This tells the first begotten was not worshiped by angels before God brought him into the world. So if the first begotten is Jesus and he preexisted as you claim he did not hold hold position of Lord in the unity of the Spirit.
    ============================================================

    Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:AKJV

    Hebrews 1:6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    can you tell me why those verses are not saying the same thing ?

    #813777
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:AKJV

    He was made of a woman, who was herself the seed of David. Being made a human being he was like his brother humans made a little lower than the angels.

    Hebrews 1:6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    He was made Lord of all things in heaven and earth after his resurrection.

    Looking at the wording the all the angels are instructed to give homage to them as the Heir and latter he is given the power to command him. Other Scripture makes the case he has the ability to command some angels before his resurrection though God controls which ones and how many. (Matthew 25:53)

    #813779
    terraricca
    Participant

    Kerwin

    He was made Lord of all things in heaven and earth after his resurrection.

    ============================================================================
    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    1CO 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

    Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
    Eph 1:22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
    Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

    Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
    Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    the love of God is to serve and Jesus is a voluntary member in this way ;even in heaven this is why he came down as Paul said ;

    Jesus was under the direct supervision of God hiS FATHER since day one ;

    your denial the Christ(the WORD/Jesus) his coming from heaven is manifested in your understanding and so make your understanding false and untrue to the scriptures ;

    you are struggling to make opinions of your the interpretation for the understanding of the scriptures ? since when man are the true interpreters of the word of God ?

    #813780
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    You are at odd with Scripture in your argument with Ed for it is written “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son…” If the word that came to Jeremiah was Jesus then these words of Hebrews are untrue. Scripture is not broken so they cannot be untrue and your idea is tested as false. Why repeat what you know in your heart is false?

    Jeremiah is just voicing the same idea that Peter does with these words.

    2 Peter 1:21Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    In short it was not Jeremiah speaking but rather the word of God speaking through him.

    There are three that testify from heaven, which are God, his word, and his Spirit. The three are united.

    #813787
    terraricca
    Participant

    Kerwin

    You are at odd with Scripture in your argument with Ed for it is written “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son…” If the word that came to Jeremiah was Jesus then these words of Hebrews are untrue. Scripture is not broken so they cannot be untrue and your idea is tested as false. Why repeat what you know in your heart is false?

    Jesus came to talk to prophetes not to all men ;this was the son that was sent to Us Jesus ,

    when Jesus (the WORD) went to the prophet it was to follow up on the progression of the prophecy of the coming lamb ,

    you are mixing things up ,

    Mt 21:33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.
    Mt 21:34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
    Mt 21:35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third.
    Mt 21:36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way.
    Mt 21:37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
    Mt 21:38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’
    Mt 21:39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    Mt 21:40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

    try to understand this parable ;

    #813799
    Ed J
    Participant

    your view does not make those scriptures I showed you void ;it is your false interpretation that will kill you for you remain in your sins ,for you deny the truth

    No Pierre,

    Post #813767 proves your understanding is void.

    Our salvation is not based on our agreeing with your erroneous interpretations of Scripture!

    #813813
    terraricca
    Participant

    ED
    Our salvation is not based on our agreeing with your erroneous interpretations of Scripture!
    ===================================================================================
    1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
    1Jn 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
    1Jn 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever
    .
    are you saying that not following the truth of God will bring salvation ? scriptures please

    PS;
    you haven
    ‘t proven that the scriptures i shown you are wrong ;and i did not interpret them I just show them to you ,

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by Admin.
    #813823
    Ed J
    Participant

    No Pierre,

    Our salvation is not based on our agreeing with your erroneous interpretations of Scripture!

    These are your words Pierre:

    your false interpretation that will kill you for you remain in your sins

    #813825
    Ed J
    Participant

    you haven
    ‘t proven that the scriptures i shown you are wrong

    Hi Pierre,

    Funny how when me Nick or anyone else disagrees with your erroneous interpretations of Scripture,
    you instead try to deflect our words away from you and try to apply them toward Scripture.

    That tactic will not not work!

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

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