John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,181 through 17,200 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #382634
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Yes

    #382644
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Thank you.

    #382645
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:19)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    It doesn't matter, because Jesus only used the word FLESH, Kerwin.  Jesus effectively took away your “flesh and BONE can enter” argument – long before Paul ever wrote his first letter to the Corinthians.  So it's time you give it up – don't you think?

    Jesus is speaking of the renewal of the spirit, Psalms 51:10, something any teacher of God's people should know.


    That's not what Jesus was speaking about, Kerwin.

    Did God ever “renew” a spirit in someone? When that happened, did that person become able to enter into the kingdom of God? Could he go back and forth from heaven to earth at will?

    And how about that person's children? After his spirit was renewed, did he continue to be FLESH, and therefore continue to have FLESH children?

    Also, did FLESH give birth to that person's ORIGINAL spirit? Or was the ORIGINAL spirit he was born with created by something other than flesh? It is the latter, right? Because flesh cannot give birth to spirit, right?

    So if the man's ORIGINAL spirit was already NOT born by flesh, then why would he HIMSELF need to be “born again”?

    Also, Nick is right that “soul” is meant in Psalm 51:10. Because the actual SPIRIT of David is something from God in the first place, and can therefore not have been “damaged”. The soul, on the other hand, is the inner man, and can make bad decisions like the one David made with Bathsheba…….. which is what that psalm is about.

    Kerwin, all of those are very good reasons that Jesus didn't have 51:10 in mind. Instead, Jesus was saying that human beings LITERALLY need to be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to see, or enter, the kingdom of God.

    #382647
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:04)
    Mike,

    Quote
    So you think FLESH can enter, all by itself?  And BLOOD can enter, all by itself?

    But they can't enter as a combination?

    That would be the literal interpretation.  If Paul meant only flesh could not inherit then why add the words “and blood”?

    Note: Be careful not to read into my words.  I am investigating not stating a conclusion.


    Kerwin,

    Flesh, blood, and bone all go together. If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.

    If I say you are FLESH – it doesn't mean you don't have blood and bone also, right?

    Jesus ONLY said “flesh”. Paul said “flesh and blood”. Someone else could have said, “flesh and BONE”. But they would all mean the same thing, which is: FLESHLY HUMAN BEINGS cannot enter the spirit realm of heaven. They must be born of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to enter and dwell there.

    #382648
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:33)
    I doubt that there are literally souls under the altar of heaven as the claim sounds metaphoric.


    It doesn't sound “metaphoric” to me.  Perhaps it does to you because of what you WANT the scripture to teach.

    I don't have any WISHES for what the scriptures SHOULD teach.  So when John said there were souls under the alter in heaven, I have no reason to disbelieve what he said.

    I know there are many metaphorical statements in scripture.  But I see no reason to assume that is one of them.

    Jesus clearly said that some of his disciples would not even taste death before seeing the kingdom of God, right?  These souls under the alter are ex-human beings who were EXPLICITLY killed for holding to the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus.  I believe Peter, Paul and Stephen are three of those souls.

    Surely you know the cliché about a person dying, and their soul leaves their body and goes up to see Peter at the pearly gates, right?  Christianity in general believes this happens to EVERYONE who is “good”.  I don't believe that, but – except for the “Peter at the pearly gates” part – I do believe it happened to those souls under the alter, who were killed for the sole reason of holding to God's word and the testimony of Christ.  

    These ones didn't even “taste death” (enter Sheol, or whatever) – but were transformed in the blink of an eye immediately upon their earthly death. And that fulfills Jesus' words that he spoke on the matter.

    But you are free to believe what you want.

    #382649
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Flesh, blood, and bone all go together. If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.

    Not all believe your claim. Some believe Jesus had no blood after his resurrection and I cannot not say he did as I know the power of God.

    #382650
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    I don't have any WISHES for what the scriptures SHOULD teach. So when John said there were souls under the alter in heaven, I have no reason to disbelieve what he said.

    You do realize if your understanding is wrong it is because you do not believe what Scripture teaches.

    #382651
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 16 2014,10:45)
    if christ is not equal with God then paul should not say did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. do you understand the logic here?

    commentaries also supported my view that Christ is equal with God

    Pulpit Commentary
    to be equal with God.” Christ was equal with God (John 5:18; John 10:30). He did not cling to the outward manifestation of that equality.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    thought it no robbery to be equal with God; the Father; for if he was in the same form, nature, and essence, he must be equal to him, as he is;

    even the jews know that Christ claimed to be equal with God

    John 5:18
    New International Version (NIV)

    18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


    jammin,

    “Did NOT consider equality with God something TO BE GRASPED” means that Jesus DIDN'T even CONSIDER being equal to his and our God, Jehovah.  In other words, Jesus never gave one thought to the possibility that he could be equal to God. He knew equality with God was IMPOSSIBLE, so he never even CONSIDERED it.

    As for your commentaries, like I said before:  Even IF someone says Jesus is “equal TO God”, they are at the same time saying Jesus is NOT God.

    Don't you understand this?  If you are “equal TO” the Creator of the universe”, then it means you AREN'T “the Creator of the universe”.

    If I am “equal TO” Bob Marley, then it is clear that I am NOT “Bob Marley”.

    Do you understand that?  So any scholar who tells you that Jesus was “equal TO” God, is also, with those very words, telling you that Jesus ISN'T God.

    #382652
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 16 2014,15:08)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2014,10:26)
    Remember Charles, there isn't a servant who “became” God Almighty.  There still exists both God Almighty and His holy servant Jesus Christ.

    WRONG AGAIN MIKE………..

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2014,10:26)
    There is still a Most High God.  His name is Jehovah.  Jesus remains Jehovah's prophet, priest, spokesman, messiah, and servant.  He is not equal to Jehovah, but sits at the NEXT HIGHEST position there is – at Jehovah's right hand.


    SO HE IS THE MOST HIGH TANGIBLE GOD!

    THE FATHER IS THE MOST HIGH SPIRIT GOD!


    Charles,

    God sent His only begotten Son to earth as a sacrificial lamb that GOD offered up on our behalf.

    The lamb was never the God who offered him up……. and never WILL BE the God who offered him up.

    If you cannot understand these simple Biblical principles, how can I have a serious scriptural discussion with you?

    #382654
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,19:50)
    Mike,

    Quote
    I don't have any WISHES for what the scriptures SHOULD teach.  So when John said there were souls under the alter in heaven, I have no reason to disbelieve what he said.

    You do realize if your understanding is wrong it is because you do not believe what Scripture teaches.


    ???

    I believe exactly what scripture teaches, Kerwin.

    I explained to you my understanding of the souls under the alter. What have you to say? Can you refute that understanding? Even if you don't understand it the same way, can you seriously tell me for a fact that MY understanding is wrong – because I “don't believe what scripture teaches”?

    #382655
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,19:48)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Flesh, blood, and bone all go together.  If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.

    Not all believe your claim.  Some believe Jesus had no blood after his resurrection and I cannot not say he did as I know the power of God.


    All of this is a WASTE OF TIME, Kerwin.

    JESUS ONLY SAID “FLESH”!

    That's the END of this “flesh” versus “bone” versus “blood” discussion, okay? Because JESUS ONLY SAID “FLESH”!

    #382738
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,19:50)
    Mike,

    Quote
    I don't have any WISHES for what the scriptures SHOULD teach.  So when John said there were souls under the alter in heaven, I have no reason to disbelieve what he said.

    You do realize if your understanding is wrong it is because you do not believe what Scripture teaches.


    ???

    I believe exactly what scripture teaches, Kerwin.

    I explained to you my understanding of the souls under the alter.  What have you to say?  Can you refute that understanding?  Even if you don't understand it the same way, can you seriously tell me for a fact that MY understanding is wrong – because I “don't believe what scripture teaches”?


    Mike,

    Your understanding is addition to the message of Scripture.  Scripture testifies that the souls of the dead go to Sheol.  The righteous to the paradise of that place and the wicked to the place of torment.  There is also an evidence of the belief in ghosts among the people of Scripture.  There is nothing about souls that ascend to heaven.

    My understanding does not add to the message of Scripture.  It simply goes on the message that is taught in Scripture about Jesus being the high priest that serves in heavenly places.

    #382740
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,19:48)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Flesh, blood, and bone all go together.  If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.

    Not all believe your claim.  Some believe Jesus had no blood after his resurrection and I cannot not say he did as I know the power of God.


    All of this is a WASTE OF TIME, Kerwin.

    JESUS ONLY SAID “FLESH”!

    That's the END of this “flesh” versus “bone” versus “blood” discussion, okay?  Because JESUS ONLY SAID “FLESH”!


    Miike,

    In this case you are both adding to the message of Scripture and taking away from the message of Scripture because you want so much for the passage to support your own and the Gnostics belief that flesh is someway flawed.

    It is crucial that men hear that they require a new spirit to inherit the world to come and yet by your choice of interpretation you hide that fact.

    It is also important that men believe in the resurrection and your body does not qualify as a resurrection. What you are claiming instead is that the dead become angels. Scripture never states me will become angels. Instead it states humans will become like angels having both the knowledge of good and evil and eternal life.

    #382748
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:04)
    Mike,

    Your understanding is addition to the message of Scripture.


    Hmmmm……….

    Let's see…….. In his vision, did John see the souls of those who had died for the word of God and testimony of Jesus under the alter in heaven?

    Yes. So where is the “addition” you're talking about then?

    Did Jesus say that some of them standing in his presence would not taste death before seeing the kingdom of God?

    Yes. So where is the “addition” you're talking about?

    Seriously…….. I really want to know, Kerwin.

    #382749
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    I already told you that there is no evidence that souls enter heaven. It is only your choice to interpret prophecy literally that gives you any evidence. You make that choice even though you know that prophecy is often metaphoric.

    #382757
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,12:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:04)
    Mike,

    Quote
    So you think FLESH can enter, all by itself?  And BLOOD can enter, all by itself?

    But they can't enter as a combination?

    That would be the literal interpretation.  If Paul meant only flesh could not inherit then why add the words “and blood”?

    Note: Be careful not to read into my words.  I am investigating not stating a conclusion.


    Kerwin,

    Flesh, blood, and bone all go together.  If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.

    If I say you are FLESH – it doesn't mean you don't have blood and bone also, right?

    Jesus ONLY said “flesh”.  Paul said “flesh and blood”.  Someone else could have said, “flesh and BONE”.  But they would all mean the same thing, which is:  FLESHLY HUMAN BEINGS cannot enter the spirit realm of heaven.  They must be born of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to enter and dwell there.


    Hi Mike

    I just want to butt in and say well spoken   :)

    #382758
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ May 18 2014,06:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,12:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:04)
    Mike,

    Quote
    So you think FLESH can enter, all by itself?  And BLOOD can enter, all by itself?

    But they can't enter as a combination?

    That would be the literal interpretation.  If Paul meant only flesh could not inherit then why add the words “and blood”?

    Note: Be careful not to read into my words.  I am investigating not stating a conclusion.


    Kerwin,

    Flesh, blood, and bone all go together.  If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.

    If I say you are FLESH – it doesn't mean you don't have blood and bone also, right?

    Jesus ONLY said “flesh”.  Paul said “flesh and blood”.  Someone else could have said, “flesh and BONE”.  But they would all mean the same thing, which is:  FLESHLY HUMAN BEINGS cannot enter the spirit realm of heaven.  They must be born of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to enter and dwell there.


    Hi Mike

    I just want to butt in and say well spoken   :)


    Journey,

    Perhaps but since it was about literal interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:50 not actually addressing the same line of conversation.

    Why limit it to flesh, blood, and bone if you choose an expansive interpretation? Humans also have a soul and spirit.

    #382760
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:11)
    It is crucial that men hear that they require a new spirit to inherit the world to come and yet by your choice of interpretation you hide that fact.


    Can you show me this teaching in a scripture or two?

    Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:11)
    In this case you are both adding to the message of  Scripture and taking away from the message of Scripture because you want so much for the passage to support your own and the Gnostics belief that flesh is someway flawed.  

    It seems pretty straight-forward to me, Kerwin.

    John 3:5
    Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and spirit.”

    Born of what, Kerwin?  Water, spirit, AND FLESH?  Or just “water” and “spirit”?

    John 3
    6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

    What does flesh give birth to?  Flesh, right?  And what does spirit give birth to?  Spirit, right?  So WHY is it that FLESH beings must be “born again” to see or enter the kingdom of God?

    John 3:8
    The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of spirit.

    Sounds to me like we can't even SEE those who are born of spirit, Kerwin.  Those born of spirit are like the wind.  We can hear their sound, but don't know where they come from or where they're going, because we can't SEE them.

    Aren't angels also compared to “wind” somewhere?  And didn't Jesus say we would be “like the angels”?

    Kerwin, I'm neither adding to, or taking from the scriptures.  I 100% understand Jesus' teaching to Nicodemus to be saying that we must be born of something other than flesh in order to see, or enter, the kingdom of God.  I 100% think that is exactly what Paul is also teaching in 1 Cor 15.

    Flesh gives birth to flesh. Those of heaven have spiritual bodies. We all have already borne the flesh body. We will someday bear the kind of body those of heaven have. Paul looked forward to having his lowly body transformed into a body like the new glorious body Jesus now has. (Phil 3:21)

    So I don't have to “add” anything to come to that conclusion.  Nor do I even know what the Gnostics believed.  But if they believed like I do on this one point, then they were right on this one point.

    #382767
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:11)
    It is also important that men believe in the resurrection and your body does not qualify as a resurrection.  What you are claiming instead is that the dead become angels.  Scripture never states me will become angels.  Instead it states humans will become like angels having both the knowledge of good and evil and eternal life.


    I don't claim humans will BECOME angels.  I say they will have spiritual bodies like those of heaven have.  I say they will be LIKE the angels.

    Kerwin, why do you suppose people kept asking Paul what kind of BODIES they would be raised with in the resurrection?  Do you suppose they asked him that question because they all thought they'd be raised with the SAME EXACT kind of body they already have?   ???

    Of course not.  They asked because they KNEW they would be raised with a DIFFERENT kind of body……. and they wanted to know what kind it would be.

    Paul's answer?  “SPIRITUAL, like those of heaven have…….. not FLESH, like those of earth have. We already had the first kind. In the resurrection, we will have the second kind.”

    #382770
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:54)
    Mike,

    I already told you that there is no evidence that souls enter heaven.  It is only your choice to interpret prophecy literally that gives you any evidence.   You make that choice even though you know that prophecy is often metaphoric.


    Revelation 4:4
    After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven.

    John was seeing a vision of things in heaven, Kerwin.

    Revelation 6
    9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

    10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

    11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

    John was still “in heaven” when he witnessed the Lamb take the scroll from God (who he described as having a FORM).  He was still in heaven when the Lamb started opening the seals.  And he was therefore still in heaven when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, and he saw the souls of those who had been slain.

    Revelation 20:4
    I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    I don't know what else to tell you, Kerwin.  You seem to be in a sort of denial or something.  I mean, the scripture clearly says there are souls in heaven, yet you scold me with the words in the quote box above.  ???

    If these souls being in heaven is simply a parable or something, then the fact that they will rule with Christ for a thousand years must also just be a parable.

    Can we believe the latter without believing the former? (This is assuming that you DO believe the latter part.)

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