John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,261 through 16,280 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #375243
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED,
    Quite so.

    Baptism is the new circumcision.
    col 2.9f

    Circumcision was very important to the jews but you think baptism is not relevant for followers of Jesus Christ?

    #375245
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote
    In the BEGINNING, the Word was there,
    it was WITH God, (creating)
    And it WAS God  (before he started creating)


    Quote
    So in your mind, John, for some odd reason, listed the events out of order?


    Yes, it appears he is explaining the WORD, that it was there in the beginning, and that THE WORD was with God in the beginning, and that the WORD WAS GOD originally.
    The WORD WAS GOD,
    NOT AND THE WORD IS GOD.
    THIS IS MY POINT.

    Quote
    Shouldn't he have said “the Word WAS God, but then the Word came to be WITH God” ?


    Who are we to say how God should of explained it?
    I say he didn't explain it wrong.
    I say he knew exactly what he was doing.
    keeping the understanding hidden from wolves in sheep's clothing, and making this verse true;

    Matthew 11:27   All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Do you believe this verse?
    I do.
    NO MAN KNOWS UNLESS IT IS REVEALED TO HIM BY CHRIST.
    REVEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, SO IN OTHER WORDS, GIVEN UNDERSTANDING.
    These wolves in sheep's clothing have come in and changed God's Word to the way they think it should be read, because there is no holy spirit there to help them understand.
    These Wolves, hate the very name of Jesus, and his position,
    and talk him down, thinking they are raising God up!
    It cannot and will not be revealed to these wolves,
    and even if we try to explain what God has hidden,
    then there is nothing we can do to make you understand what we are shown, for we cannot give out the holy spirit, but testify of it.
    IT IS HIDDEN FROM THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE GOD'S WORD CAN BE TRUSTED and SPEND A GREAT DEAL OF THEIR LIVES SOWING THIS INTO THE FIELD.  PLANTING WEEDS,
    and MISSING OUT ON THE TREASURES.

    #375246
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote
    Why does John have the Word being WITH God first, and BEING God later?


    Because the emphasis is on CHRIST BEING THE WORD OF GOD, that is what the chapter starts off explaining.  It's revealing who Christ is, and revealing in the background who the Word originally was for those weaned off the milk.
    No person will ever understand John 1:1 straight off, unless they have fed on the scriptures first, building up their spiritual knowledge, and receiving the promise of the holy spirit.
    It is a gift that has to be earned.  Eat Christ's flesh, and that measure will increase daily.
    The Words of life are the scriptures, if we do not eat the scriptures, then we deprave ourselves of spiritual nutrition, blocking ourselves from allowing the holy spirit to come in.

    But many say, yes I've read and read for the last 20 years.
    Really?
    who's flesh did you eat?
    Didn't you say this flesh was no good?

    #375247
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote
    The KJV was issued first, yours came much later preaching a different gospel…….


    Quote
    One of the very first languages into which the Greek NT was translated was the Coptic language. Somewhere around 200-300 A.D., I believe.  The Coptic language was the very first language into which the NT was translated that uses an indefinite article like English does.  And the Coptic people translated John 1:1 as, “and the Word was A god.

    You see Mike, it always comes down to this.
    You telling us not to trust what God first gave us.  The truth in his Word.

    Quote
    That means that at the VERY FIRST opportunity someone had to translate 1:1 as “a god” – they did it.  Long, long, long BEFORE your KJV translated it as “God”.


    This came after the holy bible was introduced to the gentiles, and completely contrary to the 95% of copies found, and started a new Religion and preached a different gospel, doing the very thing that we were warned about, and has many holes in it and contradictions, so I say it is evidence of what the devil can do in one of his methods of deception to lead the flock astray.

    The Coptic translation produced a NEW RELIGION.  The Jehovah Witnesses.  A different gospel with the guise of being the same.  The Coptic translation condemns the fact that God made Jesus equal to himself, in the sense of having all knowlege and holiness, and power on this earth, given to him from God, and instead wants us to believe that Jesus is in fact equal to the angels, and claim Christ is an angel, so you see, it produced a “new doctrine”

    Quote
    Talk away, journey.  I'm not stopping you.  As I read your posts, if I see something that needs pointed out, questioned, or corrected, I will do so.  But you are under no obligation to respond to those questions and corrections.


    You are very welcome to do that.

    Matthew 7:13   Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    Matthew 7:14   Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Matthew 7:15   Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    #375248
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 28 2014,03:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 28 2014,03:09)

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,12:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 27 2014,17:00)
    Journey,

    Jesus is not a half-God.  The Greek polytheistic religion had plenty of half-god's and they had no trouble making that clear to their hearers and yet not one word in Scripture about Jesus being a half-God.


    Kerwin

    Jesus was 100% human,
    but his Father is God.
    It's that simple.


    Journey,

    Jesus was 100% human as for his flesh, soul, spirit but 100% son of God as for his Spirit.


    k

    WRONG ,THE SOUL CAN NOT BE KILLED BY ANYONE ELSE THAN GOD ;SCRIPTURES SAY SO ,

    SO THE SOUL OF JESUS WAS THE SAME IN HEAVEN THAN ON EARTH AS IT BECAME FLESH


    T,

    If Jesus' soul was anything other than human he would not have been a human. If you take the soul of a rabbit and place in a human body you have a rabbit in a human body. If God were to place his soul in a human body then he would still be God and not a human being.

    #375249
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 28 2014,07:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 28 2014,08:06)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2014,18:48)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 27 2014,17:00)
    Journey,

    Jesus is not a half-God.  The Greek polytheistic religion had plenty of half-god's and they had no trouble making that clear to their hearers and yet not one word in Scripture about Jesus being a half-God.


    Hi Kerwin,

    You may find that term distasteful,
    but Scripture is clear that Jesus had
    a human mother and GOD was his father.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed,

    There is nowhere where it states Jesus is a hybrid.  Instead it is written that Jesus was made from a woman and is the heir of God and a son of his Spirit.  All of God's children are children of his Spirit.


    Hi Kerwin,

    The bible says we are “Son's of God” by the spirit of adoption.
    Jesus was *BORN* the “Son of God” …GOD's only begotten son.
    Our fathers were human, while Jesus' father was God.      (<– are you denying this)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Wakeup,

    The son of God by adoption and the son of God by ordainment are different only in those who require being adopted have were as one time the children of sin.

    It is written:

    Ecclesiastes 7:29
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    Jesus never went in search of inventions but instead stayed a child of God.

    #375250
    terraricca
    Participant

    j42

    Quote
    The Coptic translation produced a NEW RELIGION.  The Jehovah Witnesses.  A different gospel with the guise of being the same.  The Coptic translation condemns the fact that God made Jesus equal to himself, in the sense of having all knowlege and holiness, and power on this earth, given to him from God, and instead wants us to believe that Jesus is in fact equal to the angels, and claim Christ is an angel, so you see, it produced a “new doctrine”

    can you show where Mike says all those things ???

    and show that the kjv was not written by Anglican or to be fanatic priest ,what I have shown you it did ,but you disregard,like all what comes against you believe not the truth ,

    and yes Jesus was an angel ;because the translation of that name means MESSENGER , but it also is used to point to heavenly spirit beings ,things it seems you do not want to see ,

    #375251
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 28 2014,07:16)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2014,06:43)
    Hi ED,
    The prophets were clean vessels fit to be used of the Spirit of God.
    Their walk was according to the OT law.

    The new covenant is in the blood of Jesus Christ and we must be clothed in Christ through baptism.[gal3.27]
    We must be baptised into his death[Rom6] and raised in the Spirit[rom6]


    Hi Nick,

    Gal.3:27 says “baptized into Christ”, not baptized into water.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed.

    You do realize one does not prevent the other from being true. Peter actually teaches that the two are linked. You do one and then are graced(gifted) with the other.

    #375252
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 28 2014,09:04)

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 28 2014,03:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 28 2014,03:09)

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,12:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 27 2014,17:00)
    Journey,

    Jesus is not a half-God.  The Greek polytheistic religion had plenty of half-god's and they had no trouble making that clear to their hearers and yet not one word in Scripture about Jesus being a half-God.


    Kerwin

    Jesus was 100% human,
    but his Father is God.
    It's that simple.


    Journey,

    Jesus was 100% human as for his flesh, soul, spirit but 100% son of God as for his Spirit.


    k

    WRONG ,THE SOUL CAN NOT BE KILLED BY ANYONE ELSE THAN GOD ;SCRIPTURES SAY SO ,

    SO THE SOUL OF JESUS WAS THE SAME IN HEAVEN THAN ON EARTH AS IT BECAME FLESH


    T,

    If Jesus' soul was anything other than human he would not have been a human.  If you take the soul of a rabbit and place in a human body you have a rabbit in a human body.  If God were to place his soul in a human body then he would still be God and not a human being.


    K

    you are mixing up ;a rabbit soul will always be a rabbit ,

    but the soul of a spirit being is the same as the spirit being of a man except that men as been corrupt and so lost his shine ,

    remember what scriptures says ;Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us,(could a rabbit ever dream to become like one of us ???)

    was it not the soul ??? or was it the flesh ??? or was it ???

    #375253
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote
    Yeah, but of WHAT were they created?  Did there exist other things at that time that God made them OUT OF?

    Mike this is what you do, only put in half of my answer.
    This is what I said.

    God spoke and they were created.
    With his wisdom he designed them,
    and with his WORD he commanded them into existence,
    just like he made everything else that exists.

    The angels were created spirit.  Heavenly creatures.

    Quote
    Or was there only God and His Word at that time?

     
    Yes, before creation started, we know this because everything was created through his Word, and that includes the host of heaven, the angels.  So before creation, there was just God and His Word beside him ready to start creating everything together.

    Quote
    If the latter, then those other spirit sons of God were made out of the same exact thing the firstborn spirit Son of God was made of:  God Himself.


    No.  This is where your mind has crossed a wire.
    The “FIRSTBORN SPIRIT SON” was the “FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD”.  First to be resurrected from flesh to spirit.
    Died flesh, rose to Spirit.  FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD.
    Not FIRSTBORN IN HEAVEN.  
    The WORD was never born, or created,  but was always there, whether inside God or out beside him.  

    #375254
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote
    Think it out……. if there was nothing BUT God, then those other spirit sons have as much claim to being made “from  God” as that firstborn Son does.


    I hope you understand this much clearer now, that this question is based on what you perceived wrongly “the Firstborn” as really meaning.  Now you know it means, “Firstborn of the DEAD”. – FIRST RESURRECTED.

    Colossians 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Quote
    Was he inside of God as a living, breathing BEING before God brought him out?


    The Word was God Mike, before God brought him out.
    There was just God with his Word INSIDE HIM.
    THERE WAS ONE.

    Quote
     If not, then once again, those other spirit sons of God could equally say they (the stuff they're made of) were inside God before God brought them out.


    They were never inside God, and the scriptures do not ever say that.  They were made.

    Isaiah 45:12   I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

    Isaiah 54:16   Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

    Does it say that his chief angel came out of God?
    or does it say that he was created?
    You decide for yourself.

    Ezekiel 28:13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created

     

    Quote
    The scriptural teaching is that Jesus was created FIRST, and then all other things were subsequently created THROUGH him.  Many try to ignore this teaching, because it doesn't align with their personal wishes for what Jesus should have been – or with their favorite English translation.


    I hope this is cleared up now for you.

    #375255
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 28 2014,14:14)
    can you show where Mike says all those things ???

    and show that the kjv was not written by Anglican or to be  fanatic priest ,what I have shown you it did ,but you disregard,like all what comes against you believe not the truth ,

    and yes Jesus was an angel ;because the translation of that name means MESSENGER , but it also is used to point to heavenly spirit beings ,things it seems you do not want to see ,


    Pierre

    You might want to read my answer to Mike first, before you start bombarding me with your outstanding wisdom.

    #375256
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 28 2014,09:54)

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 28 2014,14:14)
    can you show where Mike says all those things ???

    and show that the kjv was not written by Anglican or to be  fanatic priest ,what I have shown you it did ,but you disregard,like all what comes against you believe not the truth ,

    and yes Jesus was an angel ;because the translation of that name means MESSENGER , but it also is used to point to heavenly spirit beings ,things it seems you do not want to see ,


    Pierre

    You might want to read my answer to Mike first, before you start bombarding me with your outstanding wisdom.


    J42

    Make me see what I do not see

    #375257
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 28 2014,15:43)
    [quote=journey42,Mar. 28 2014,09:54][quote=terraricca,Mar. 28 2014,14:14]can you show where Mike says all those things ???

    and show that the kjv was not written by Anglican or to be  fanatic priest ,what I have shown you it did ,but you disregard,like all what comes against you believe not the truth ,

    J42

    Make me see what I do not see


    Pierre

    I've been trying to do that for two years now.
    I cannot make you see anything,
    you have made your own choice,
    so stick with it.

    #375263
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2014,13:18)
    Hi ED,
    Quite so.

    Baptism is the new circumcision.
    col 2.9f

    Circumcision was very important to the jews but you think baptism is not relevant for followers of Jesus Christ?


    Hi Nick,

    Let me explain a little more clearly.

    Point  #1: “Water Baptism” symbolizes death to the law, which was
    required of all Israel (not just Jews) to follow Christ apart from the law.

    Point #2: Gentiles hearing the good news of the Gospel were
    “Baptized” with God's HolySpirit without being water baptized.

    Point #3: The Apostle Paul declares: “I thank God that I baptized none of you…
    For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of
    words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”  (1 Cor 1:14…17)

    Baptizing in Jesus' name is: Baptizing with God's HolySpirit; not water baptizing.
    When we are fully immersed in the water of God's word, we are able to
    kill 'ego eimi' – thus carrying our own crosses while following Jesus Christ.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #375264
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Ed,
    Paul baptised.
    But he was more useful to God preaching so the easy job was left to others.

    Cornelius was baptised in the Spirit by the choice of God but Peter immediately instructed that he be baptised in water

    Are you greater than Peter or Paul?

    Baptism is a requirement of God but unpopular with men.

    #375266
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED
    “Water Baptism” symbolizes death to the law”
    Scripture please.

    #375267
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    Did the Apostle Paul (Shaool) stop water baptizing?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #375270
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2014,16:57)
    Hi ED
    “Water Baptism” symbolizes death to the law”
    Scripture please.


    “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ (symbolized by water baptism);
     that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead (Christ),
     that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”  (Romans 7:4)

    Dead to the law, and raised to newness in life.

    #375274
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED,
    So we need your additions to understand your point?

    Paul did what he was told to do

    He had wisdom[as Peter said], and his wisdom was more important to be shared than the easy role of dipping.

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