John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,601 through 1,620 (of 25,999 total)
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  • #109885

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 07 2008,00:34)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58)
    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)

    Is the Father the image of the invisible God?

    Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? ???

    Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God!

    WJ


    Let's put your words to the test.
    The test is scripture.

    1 Timothy 6:15-16
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God.

    So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect.

    Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.

    Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
    It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.
    I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
    At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.


    But… here is the rest of the story… “The question why the Son is called “The Word” may be answered by saying that the term expresses both his nature and his office. The word is that which reveals. The Son is the εἰκών and ἀπαύγασμα of God, and therefore his word. It is his office to make God known to his creatures. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. The Son, therefore, as the revealer of God, is the Word.”

    Hodge, C. Systematic Theology (504). Grand Rapids, MI: Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

    So according to all of Scripture, on this issue, no one has seen God, however, the Son has come as a declarer of God…. and the Son is, as the writer of Hebrews also states, the “exact representation of His nature”…. and, those who have seen Christ have seen the Father. For we have the very words of Christ Jesus Himself who said (John 14:9 ESV)  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

    To see Jesus, is to see God.  Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit”, and not to Jesus, further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hi epistemaniac

    Excellent points!

    WJ

    #109886

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 07 2008,00:54)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 06 2008,22:09)
    Good posts brother T8,
    At the same time please say that there can be no other Gods besides our Father in this whole universe. Please don't be confused with the word 'theos' which is wrongly translated for princes and judges in greek. These so called gods can not be confused with our True God Father.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam


    This such a great point… the Bible is so very clear… there is only 1 true God…. but as David and other JW's and other inconsistent Unitarians of various stripes admit, the bible refers to Jesus as being God, or, for the sake of argument, lets say “a god”… But… and here is the crucial point…. if there is only one true God, and Jesus is a god, then by resistless logic, by the application of the law of the excluded middle, Jesus simply HAS to be a false god!! Of course, that cannot be true! Its blasphemous to think so. Therefore, Jesus has to be, in some profound essential way, a part of the one true God's very nature, or as the ancient creed so well puts it, Jesus is:
    “God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;”.
    And this is exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. It resolves this biblical conundrum, and without it, the Bible explicitly contradicts itself by saying that there can only be 1 true God, and that Jesus is god or a god, yet Jesus is spoken of throughout the bible in a favorable sense, as the Messiah, as the Savior, as God's Son, etc… all positive favorable descriptions…. none of which would lead us to believe that Jesus is a false god. So Jesus is the true God, and the Trinity is what best explains the full counsel of Scripture.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hi epistemaniac

    More good points!

    Blessings!

    WJ

    #109887

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58)
    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)

    Is the Father the image of the invisible God?

    Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? ???

    Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God!

    WJ


    Let's put your words to the test.
    The test is scripture.

    1 Timothy 6:15-16
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God.

    So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect.

    Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.

    Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
    It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.
    I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
    At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)

    So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God.

    John also said the same thing…

    No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET

    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

    But wait….

    Yahshua says…

    (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – “he has seen the Father”.) John 6:46 NET

    Question is “why would the Apostle John say “no one' has seen God at any time unless John knew that Yahshua is “the true God”, the Word that was with God and was God.

    So if no one has seen God then it is imparitive that Yahshua not being a part of the “no one” is also the “True God”.

    And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life“. 1 John 5:20

    WJ

    #109889
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    So if Yahshua has seen God has he seen himself?
    Or do you mean God is the Father which we agree with.
    You should really cast aside these vain follies and worship his God.

    #109890

    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)

    Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.

    I am Glad that you admit the Father who is Spirit is invisible and Yahshua is the “visible image of God”.

    Since you believe that Yahshua being the “visible image of God” does not mean he is God then maybe you can explain these scriptures and who it is that is sitting on the throne and how John was able to see him…

    And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11

    Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with…

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*: Col 1:16

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)

    Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
    It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.


    I think it is silly to teach that God has not made himself visible!

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)
    I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
    At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.


    The blatant contradiction is with your theology t8, for it is you who believes that more than one divine being exist and that more than one “theos” created all things. It is you that teaches men that the “image of the invisible God” is less than God therfore causing men to create a false image of God.

    O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, (not gods) thou art the God, even “thou alone“, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. Isa 37:16

    Which “alone” spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. Job 9:8

    WJ

    #109891
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    If you acknowledge the Father as God why do you teach that His Son is primarily to be worshipped?
    Why not follow the Son and worship his Father and God?
    You do not worship a trinity do you?

    #109893

    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:43)

    Some who are given his authority are called theos, but they are not the Most High Theos or true Theos. Rather they are representative of him who is the one true Theos.

    Can you give us one scripture where a representative of God who has divine qualities or attributes is called “theos”?  ???

    Just one scripture t8. Thats all I ask. Surely you can find one that supports your theory that “Gods representatives” who must have divine qualities or attributes are called “theos”.

    Where is the scripture that says an “Angel of God” is called “theos”?

    Anyone can see that your words do not match up with the reality of the application of the word 'theos' in scripture.

    WJ

    #109894

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:34)
    Hi WJ,
    If you acknowledge the Father as God why do you teach that His Son is primarily to be worshipped?
    Why not follow the Son and worship his Father and God?
    You do not worship a trinity do you?


    Hi NH

    If the Father is the invisible God then who is being worshipped in Revelation chapter 4? ???

    WJ

    #109895
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    You do not know who God is anymore?
    You should not pay attention to fools.

    #109896

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:52)
    Hi WJ,
    You do not know who God is anymore?
    You should not pay attention to fools.


    NH

    What do you know about my relationship with God?

    You simply badger rather than addressing the points.

    I think that is rather foolish.

    WJ

    #109897
    NickHassan
    Participant

    WJ,
    Why pay lipservice to the veracity of scripture and try to find confusion?
    The millstone awaits those who would upset the faith of God's little ones.
    You know Who God is. He is not a trinity and the rest is from carnal men.

    #109898
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Actually the millstone would be preferable to their fate and, not surprisingly, the fate of the Whore.

    Matthew 18:6
    But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

    Mark 9:42
    And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

    Luke 17:2
    It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

    Revelation 18:21
    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    #109899
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    So it seems the judgement on the Whore may well relate to her offending the faith of God's people.
    ? By false and dangerous doctrines that do not come from the mouth of God.

    #109900

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:57)
    WJ,
    Why pay lipservice to the veracity of scripture and try to find confusion?
    The millstone awaits those who would upset the faith of God's little ones.
    You know Who God is. He is not a trinity and the rest is from carnal men.


    NH

    The confusion is in your own theology, for your theology dictates using white out on parts of the scriptures.

    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:19

    WJ

    #109901
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    We reveal to the best of our limited knowledge and ability what is written in scripture, the bread of life.
    No trinity is found there but you still espouse it?

    #109902
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,08:07)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,07:57)
    WJ,
    Why pay lipservice to the veracity of scripture and try to find confusion?
    The millstone awaits those who would upset the faith of God's little ones.
    You know Who God is. He is not a trinity and the rest is from carnal men.


    NH

    The confusion is in your own theology, for your theology dictates using white out on parts of the scriptures.

    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:19

    WJ


    Hi WJ,
    Strong accusations.

    But we do not remove any teachings from the bible such as that God is a trinity or that we should worship other than the God of Jesus because these things are not found taught there.

    So what do you mean?

    #109905
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi Ken
    Hope you are well

    Quote
    To see Jesus, is to see God.  Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit”, and not to Jesus, further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us.


    To see Jesus is to see GOD.  amen to that


    1 Timothy 6:15-16
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit” amen to that also.
    and not to Jesus  I agree with that also.
    verse 16 reiterates the thought of John 1:18 which tells us no man has seen GOD at any time
    yet the only begotten which is in the bosom of the Father has declared HIM.
    further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us.
    How so? If they are distinct then they are not the same, if they vary in their essential and intrinsic nature, even in purpose how can they be identical in every way?
    Mortal (able to taste of death) and immortal are not the same
    One begotten and one eternal are not identical as to origin
    If anything a distinction being made between the Father and the Son only serves to further weaken the idea of a trinity of 3 co-equal, co-eternal, co-omnipotent, co-ominscient persons.
    imo

    #109908

    Hi MF

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    Been busy last few days…
    Hi WJ
    Some thoughts on some of your comments.

    Quote
    Really? Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?

    Only one?
    How about a few?
    Omnipotence – Jesus does not have omnipotence of himself – he was given it by GOD


    Really? And just how is it that two separate beings can be “Omnipotent”? Two separate beings cannot have all power. How can a “finite being” have infinite power? However one can. The point is the attribute that the Father has “omnipotence’, Yeshua also has. They are One!

    The question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”. You have not answered the question for Yeshua has all authority and power.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    –after he rose from the grave. If it was an intrinsic part of himself he could not have it then not have it then have it again…


    Post incarnation. Paul in Phil 2 disagrees with you and says that Yeshua who is in the “form of God” emptied himself and did recieve it again.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    Also he said himself that his Father was greater than him (Mt 14:28)


    This is truly a fallacious argument for it does not speak to the ontological nature of Yeshua who is the Word/God.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    Omniscience – Jesus did not know everything that the Father did (Mk 13:32) Now as with the previous point – he cannot have omniscience then lose it then gain it again.


    Post incarnation. Phil 2 disagrees with you.

    My question was… “Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”

    The scriptures say… The Father loveth the Son, and “hath given all things into his hand”. John 3:35

    For the Father loveth the Son, and “sheweth him all things that himself doeth”: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

    [color=blue]Jesus knowing that “the Father had given all things into his hands”, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3

    In whom (Yahshua) “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge“. Col 2:3

    Again the question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    Jesus could die – GOD is eternal – therefore cannot die.


    Another fallacious argument. What died? The Word or eternal Spirit of Yeshua? Or his flesh, the body that is dead without the Spirit? James 2:26 Yeshua said he was the resurrection and the life, John 11:25. John says he is the “Eternal life” that was with the Father. 1 John 1:1, 2.  Yeshua says…

    And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26

    If our spirits never die, do you think the “Eternal Spirit” of Yahshua who was the resurrection and the life died? Yahshua was in hell or Hades for 3 days and 3 nights.

    Again the question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”

    Yeshua is eternal without a beginning as the Word/God.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
    Jesus could be a man – GOD is not a man.


    Again the question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”

    The question was not what attributes Yeshua has that the Father doesn’t.

    But, the Word/God came in the flesh therefore becoming God in the flesh, the “image of the invisible God”.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
    There is no such thing as an eternal son, and the son of God is not a second GOD.


    I agree he is not a second god.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
    If Jesus ever was eternal then he could not die.
    The fact that he was GOD’s son meant he could not stay dead, GOD raised him up again.


    The Word/God the eternal Spirit did not die. The definition of death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body. Yahshua said…

    And fear not them which kill the body, “but are not able to kill the soul”: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28

    Do you think the Father killed Jesus soul/spirit?

    Jesus also said…

    Jesus answered and said unto them, “Destroy this temple” (his body), and in three days “I will raise it up”. John 2:19

    If the Spirit of Yahshua was dead then how could he raise his body?

    Quote
    There is no unambiguous scripture that says Yeshua had a beginning and especially that he was born or created from an asexual God.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    There is nothing ambiguous about the title son – it clearly denotes the following
    Offspring – and therefore the fact that Jesus (as all offspring of a
    parent do) had a beginning.


    Jesus was not declared a son until he came in the flesh. Where is the scripture that the pre-incarnate Jesus had a beginning?

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
    Add to this the fact that he has a father. Everyone I know of that has a father had a beginning in that father.


    No, the beginning is in the mother. You use the term son as if it means he is not by nature God. If you have a son he is ontologically identical in nature as a human.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    “you are MY Son today I have begotten you” – nothing ambiguous about that.
    What does the word beget mean? Especially when used in context to HIS Son.


    Post incarnation.

    Again the question was…“Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)
    Asexual GOD? Sex and GOD are not relative at all – He can make children of the rocks – He can speak children even as He spoke the entire creation into existence.


    I agree, but Yahshua is not of the created order, for…

    All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created John 1:3

    And we know that Yahshua didn’t create himself.

    Quote
    YHWH did not bring birth to a lesser god by whom he created all things and then ask us to bow down and worship him calling him our Great God and Savior.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    A lesser GOD – there is but one GOD – one Source and creator of all.
    How HE chooses to do the creating is HIS sovereign prerogative.


    Agreed, there is only “one True God”, but I was addressing statements made by t8 that says there is more than one “theos” with divine qualities, and LU who says Yahshua was born from the Father before the creation of all things.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    As T8 says Jesus being the image of the invisible GOD does not make him identical


    I don’t think those were his exact words. Yahshua disagrees with you when he says if you see and hear him you see and hear God.

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,01:11)

    The meaning of the word image denotes this fact, an image is not the original it is an image.
    Blessings


    Just how do you have a true image of an original if it is not identical?

    So you are of the impression that the Father does not have an image and that if you see that image you are not seeing God. If you are invisible and make yourself visible would not the image I see be you? ???

    So can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has that Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?”

    Yahshua is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient!

    Yahshua is God, One with the Father and the Spirit.

    WJ

    #109909
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    You mean one and the same?
    No Jesus is the Son of God.

    Jesus attributes all his ability to the Father at work and living in him.
    Do you think it was rather because he was God ?>

    #109910
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    So how many Gods or gods are there for you brother David;
    one is almighty and other is small 'god' or mighty god. Am I correct ?

    Golli, I think if we understood what “god” means, this would be easier to understand. It is a word that means “strong one” or “powerful one.”
    And while many have certain degrees of power, some more than others, there is only one who is above all, only one who is AL mighty. Hence, while Jesus is called a god, he is not the God of Jehovah. Rather, it is the reverse. Compared to Jesus, Jehovah is mighty and hence, God. In the days of Israel, the judges were called gods (compared to the other Israelites because of the power they had.) The angels were called gods, because they obviously have more power or strenght than humans. And Jesus, of course, if these ones have power and strength, Jesus has a lot more and hence, can obviously be called a God. But this doesn't make him the Almighty God, “the” God of the Bible.
    I think we often think of a

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